Things that make me glad I live in a Christian Country.

[KazeCraven]

I'll say this one more time. I'm not anti religion, I'm anti idiot. People who say and do horrible things to other people in the name of their religion are idiots.

Okay.

I think people who follow religious beliefs instead of using reason, evidence, and human compassion, are idiots.

This, as-is, seems very anti-religious.

 

[Satya]

This, as-is, seems very anti-religious.

Are you saying that being pro reason makes me anti religion?

 

[KazeCraven]

No, I'm saying that saying anyone who follows religion is an idiot is anti-religious.

Or is that not what you meant to say?

 

[IndigoSensor]

[mods]Keep in mind that this is not a religion vs anti religion thread, please keep the thread on topic[/mods]

 

[Satya]

No, I'm saying that saying anyone who follows religion is an idiot is anti-religious.

Or is that not what you meant to say?

No, I said anyone who follows religious beliefs above reason and human compassion are idiots. In other words, people who say and do horrible things in the name of their religion are idiots. I could care less what religion they practice. Religion in an of itself is not the issue, it is people who use it as a justification for mistreating other people.

 

[VH]

I'll say this one more time. I'm not anti religion, I'm anti idiot. People who say and do horrible things to other people in the name of their religion are idiots.

I believe the correct statement is "People who say and do horrible things to other people in the name of anything are evil." Your focus on how religion is somehow the problem implies that it's less of a problem when people say and do horrible things for other reasons. It is as much of a problem no matter what the supposed justification.

If anything, the fact that there are people who try to justify bad behaviors via religion means that they are trying to overcome religious objection, and therefore religion is actually the obstacle to their bad behavior being valid, which means religion is actually good - and standing against their agendas.

They wouldn't try to overcome religious objection if it were not. They're not trying to overcome objections from corporations (or any other group that doesn't promote behavior that is counter to these evil agendas... I'm just using 'corporations' as a neutral entity as an example), because corporations are not putting up much objection to their behaviors one way or another so long as it has no effect on profits. There is no need to convince people who work for corporations to consider their behaviors a 'good thing', because the corporate community doesn't have inherent objections one way or the other. It's the religious community that has inherent objections to evil actions, which is why these types of people go so far out of their way to make sure they have overcome the objections of the religious community and have their support... because otherwise, they would simply not be able to commit these atrocities.

This makes those individuals evil because they are deliberately attacking something that is inherently good and corrupting it into submission to their own malicious agendas.

However, I fully agree that the masses of people who allow this sort of thing, agree with these sentiments and justifications, are in fact idiots because they should know better. Their religions explicitly and repeatedly denounce these sorts of actions, and yet they allow themselves to be manipulated into following these evil people for no other reason than sheer idiocy. Most importantly, the people who attempt to corrupt and subvert religion would not be able to do so without the support of these 'idiots'. It is on this point that I fully agree with you about religious idiots.

 

[bamf]

People use religion to justify doing terrible things, people use science to justify doing terrible things, people use peace to justify terrible things. The thing is these people will find anything to justify what they do, and often use what they are most familiar with. It isn't religion, science, or peace that is at fault, it's people.

/of derailment arguement

 

[Satya]

I believe the correct statement is "People who say and do horrible things to other people in the name of anything are evil." Your focus on how religion is somehow the problem implies that it's less of a problem when people say and do horrible things for other reasons. It is as much of a problem no matter what the supposed justification.

Um...the topic of the thread is religion.

Things that make me glad I live in a Christian Country

I'm just trying to stay on topic.

 

[KazeCraven]

No, I said anyone who follows religious beliefs above reason and human compassion are idiots. In other words, people who say and do horrible things in the name of their religion are idiots. I could care less what religion they practice. Religion in an of itself is not the issue, it is people who use it as a justification for mistreating other people.

Okay, I just think that saying anyone who uses religion as justification in place of reason is quite different from saying anyone who follows religion instead of using reason. The latter sounds like you're opposing being religious with using reason whereas the former makes religion sound like it's just a tool that can be used with or in place of reason and compassion.

Your posts show that I'm just arguing semantics and phrasing though.

 

[VH]

People use religion to justify doing terrible things, people use science to justify doing terrible things, people use peace to justify terrible things. The thing is these people will find anything to justify what they do, and often use what they are most familiar with. It isn't religion, science, or peace that is at fault, it's people.

Actually, cunning people will use whatever disarms the greatest objections to their actions to justify their behaviors... and one of the best ways to disarm something is to claim it supports your cause.

People will do evil. People will justify their evil. Cunning people will disarm any opposition to their evil.

Um...the topic of the thread is religion.

Things that make me glad I live in a Christian Country

I'm just trying to stay on topic.

You're using methods that avoid the truth of the bigger picture to maintain your stance. That's a convenient debate tactic when you have an agenda, and I'm disarming it by pointing out the bigger picture.

 

[Satya]

Okay, I just think that saying anyone who uses religion as justification in place of reason is quite different from saying anyone who follows religion instead of using reason. The latter sounds like you're opposing being religious with using reason whereas the former makes religion sound like it's just a tool that can be used with or in place of reason and compassion.

Your posts show that I'm just arguing semantics and phrasing though.

Following religious beliefs does not make someone inherently unreasonable or without compassion. Following religious beliefs without using reason or compassion, however, is inherently idiotic.

 

[Satya]

Actually, cunning people will use whatever disarms the greatest objections to their actions to justify their behaviors... and one of the best ways to disarm something is to claim it supports your cause.

People will do evil. People will justify their evil. Cunning people will disarm any opposition to their evil.

Evil is just another way of saying something causes suffering or harm. It would be a lot easier for people to determine what is and is not evil if they would use their fucking brains instead of trying to tie morality to it, but that is the topic of another thread.

 

[Satya]

You're using methods that avoid the truth of the bigger picture to maintain your stance. That's a convenient debate tactic when you have an agenda, and I'm disarming it by pointing out the bigger picture.

This thread poses the argument that Christianity is inherently superior to another religious belief system based on the action of one person hurting another. I'm simply posing the argument that all religious beliefs systems can be misused for the purpose of hurting others.

If you want to argue that anyone, religious or not, could hurt someone, then that is all the better for my argument.

 

[VH]

Following religious beliefs does not make someone inherently unreasonable or without compassion. Following religious beliefs without using reason or compassion, however, is inherently idiotic.

/agree

It is also counter to all of the religions mentioned in this thread to not use compassion in practicing them. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and even Buddhism all strongly encourage compassion.

I am not well versed enough in the other religions to make this claim for them (however would assume the same is true), but Christianity and Judaism both also strongly encourage using reason.

 

[IndigoSensor]

[mods]Please keep this discussion on topic. This is about the news article posted in the OP, not on the validity of religious details. If this discussion derails further this thread will be locked for a period of time[/mods]

 

[VH]

This thread poses the argument that Christianity is inherently superior to another religious belief system based on the action of one person hurting another. I'm simply posing the argument that all religious beliefs systems can be misused for the purpose of hurting others.

This is like saying that cars can be misused to hurt people, and therefore all cars are bad. The simple fact of the matter is that a car can't hurt someone unless a person makes that car hurt someone. The problem isn't the car. It's the person. And if you take cars away, people will still find ways to hurt each other.

Anything can be misused for the purpose of hurting others. You can drown people with any beverage. You can poison them with cleaning products. You can strangle them with shoe laces. The list goes on and on. People will find a way to hurt each other if they want to, and they will claim they have valid reasons to do so.

The problem with your argument is that you're focusing on the harm that could be done to villainize the implement.

If you want to argue that anyone, religious or not, could hurt someone, then that is all the better for my argument.

Actually, it weakens your argument because it places the responsibility on the person not the implement.

 

[Satya]

[mods]Please keep this discussion on topic. This is about the news article posted in the OP, not on the validity of religious details. If this discussion derails further this thread will be locked for a period of time[/mods]

If this is not about religious details, then how come the thread title reads...

Things that make me glad I live in a Christian Country.

Obviously the OP wanted to discuss the religious details.

 

[Satya]

This is like saying that cars can be misused to hurt people, and therefore all cars are bad. The simple fact of the matter is that a car can't hurt someone unless a person makes that car hurt someone. The problem isn't the car. It's the person. And if you take cars away, people will still find ways to hurt each other.

Anything can be misused for the purpose of hurting others. You can drown people with any beverage. You can poison them with cleaning products. You can strangle them with shoe laces. The list goes on and on. People will find a way to hurt each other if they want to, and they will claim they have valid reasons to do so.

The problem with your argument is that you're focusing on the harm that could be done to villainize the implement.

Actually, it weakens your argument because it places the responsibility on the person not the implement.

Uh huh. I'll post it one more time for you.

Religion in and of itself is not the issue, it is people who use it as a justification for mistreating other people.

So VH, who is villianizing who?

 

[arbygil]

[mods]For the time being, this thread will be shut down. It will re-open sometime in the next 8 hours. Thank you.[/mods]