I officially declare this thread pointless.
I'd ask you guys to stop bickering about religion, but I know better than to hope you'd comply.
Things that make me glad I live in a Christian Country.
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I officially declare this thread pointless.
I'd ask you guys to stop bickering about religion, but I know better than to hope you'd comply.
NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!
.... sorry, I could't resist.
On a more serious note, people have said some fairly inflammatory things here. I's true that when people of any religion chooses to ignore reason and human compassion - what you get is just one big mess.
However, I'm not one to play the oh so easy "blame the religion" game. The times when we find it most convenient to blame religion for catastrophic and all-too human cruelty, we delegate the politics, ambitions, personal vendettas, and race conflicts to the back-burner.
"Religion" as a concept can only be as good or as evil as the people who choose to back it. It simply happens that in some of these Islamic countries some very corrupt factions have taken root and have used the fundamentalist Islamic factions for their own agenda.
As for the United States - well, it does take its nationalism quite seriously at times. But I think we can all attribute this to a repetitive failure to ever win (or even make it as far as the finals) the FIFA World Cup.
Or more likely we can trace this back to its roots as an initially multinational group of refugees, political/religious malcontents, and all around greedy bastards out to make a fortune (not that they weren't lovely people and all that). After it solidified as a nation in its own right is had to scrap around for respect, and even after gaining power was for years largely isolationist in policies.
When this ended (around the time of the first World War) and the US started taking more of an interest in meddling with the world outside its immediate bubble, it did so sure in the arrogance of having "saved all of Europe." Being able to swoop in with fresh troops at the last minute did turn the tide, at a relative (to all other forces fighting that war) low cost. The men returned heroes, and the American Citizens were instilled with this ideal that being American meant something important. An ideal and tradition Americans carry proudly to this day (similarly to the French, come to think of it).
All this said - I wouldn't say people in the US worship the state. They're too busy hating it. They love their nationhood, but it's the rare (non-existent) American who wouldn't want to change something about the Government, Laws, Policies, Cultural Values. The problem is that it is so diverse, and contains citizens whose cultural and genealogical backgrounds hail from every other living civilization on earth, that they can hardly ever agree on which things to change and how to change them.
**On a side note, the colonies were founded by the least risk-averse merchants, and most extreme religious zealots. I think everyone should have expected them to revolt.
For ANY visitor to the United States from ANY other country (except perhaps China) the daily rituals of ceremonial patriotism practiced in schools and at virtually all major sporting events is quite surprising. Moreover, that citizens can be held for years without trial for threatening the state is disturbing.
Last time I traveled to the U.S. the consensus of a group of tourists I was waiting near in a departure lounge was that they felt far more threatened by U.S. airport security than by any possible terrorist/etc in their travels.
It is easy to label someone an idiot whom you disagree with. Ignorance is the major source of suffering in the world, both mental and physical. So it's an act of compassion to overcome your prejudices, try to see things from their perspective, understand them.
Watch this
[YOUTUBE]4uDL7owYmgI[/YOUTUBE]
I don't disagree with people who use their religious beliefs to justify treating other people like shit, I simply don't want to enable them by pretending that it is a legitimate reason to treat people in that fashion. Perhaps you should try to understand me before you preach that I need to understand all the asshole religious bigots in the world. Maybe my reasons for being less than tolerant with them are truly legitimate. Had you considered that possibility or were you more concerned with jumping in and defending your religious beliefs than considering that there are asinine people in this world who are just self righteous jackasses? Care to practice what you preach kiddo?
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Such a separation of thought patterns and feelings, using the "instead of" pair of dividing words, causes me much grief. It is my human compassion working overtime with concern; with all the evidence and reason I have been gifted to see and feel, I can but feel sorrow. To state such a broad generalization of such a vast number of people, present and past, to be idiots is like unto one of the most sorrowful things I can comprehend.
Er...oooookay.
I'm a little more bummed out about the people who have been tortured, executed, slaughtered, and massacred throughout history by religious nuts who used their religious beliefs to justify it. Events like the Medieval Inquisition, the Christian Conquistadors, the Salem witch trials, etc, but not just those attributed to Christians. Also horrendous acts like 9-11 and the judge's decision in the OP. Those are all terrible acts perpetrated by idiots who were following their religious beliefs instead of reason, evidence, and human compassion. Yeah, I personally feel it is more justified to mourn the victims of 9-11 and other such events. But just me, if you feel it is one of "the most sorrowful" things in comprehension that I would dare call those religious nuts and terrorists who perpetrate such events "idiots" for doing something so awful then that is your opinion. I think people who say and do horrible things to other people in the name of their religion are idiots. Apparantly you disagree.
I haven't read the thread, but I wonder if it would be better to have an atheist country instead.
Little guy named Pol Pot tried it; didn't go over too well.
To be honest, I see it as more a people problem rather than a religion problem. The masses put their faith in an individual or an idea or a faith system, believing the system will save them. The people only come to power when others let them, and then they're shocked and horrified and furious when the system fails them.
In my opinion, ignorance does a lot of damage on a large scale. There are those out there who will pick and choose particular verses out of their preferred religious text and they will use those verses completely out of context as an excuse to commit horrible things. When you live during a time where most of the people in a nation are illiterate or who only know what is told to them, it can be very easy to get everyone on board by saying "The Bible says this! Therefore we must do this!" People are going to follow because not following can lead to a horrible fate.
I hardly know anyone who has read any given religious text from front to back, and I assume even the very few who do probably don't have a complete understanding of what it is that they're reading.
Religions do not change. The original religious texts do not change. However human beings have taken it upon themselves to translate these texts over and over and over again to a point where I am sure they're hardly close to the original piece of work. Human beings also have a horrible habit of selective reading where they can choose what they want to believe based on the least amount of information possible.
Personally I don't blame religions at all. I blame the people who blindly follow religious movements that spit hatred and think it's okay.
I don't really care about all of the Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc attrocities of the past. They are what they are and I think anyone looking back on them will agree that they were horrifying and should never have happened. We see the same things happening in present times but in a different fashion and it's disgusting.
Basically, stupid people are stupid. Ignorant people are ignorant. The religion itself has nothing to do with it. People just use it as a tool to achieve what they want because they know the power that religion has over people, because most are really need something to believe in and are happy to be led on a leash, even if it's down a horrible path.
I hardly know anyone who has read any given religious text from front to back, and I assume even the very few who do probably don't have a complete understanding of what it is that they're reading.
Religions do not change. The original religious texts do not change. However human beings have taken it upon themselves to translate these texts over and over and over again to a point where I am sure they're hardly close to the original piece of work. Human beings also have a horrible habit of selective reading where they can choose what they want to believe based on the least amount of information possible.
Personally I don't blame religions at all. I blame the people who blindly follow religious movements that spit hatred and think it's okay.
I don't really care about all of the Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc attrocities of the past. They are what they are and I think anyone looking back on them will agree that they were horrifying and should never have happened. We see the same things happening in present times but in a different fashion and it's disgusting.
Basically, stupid people are stupid. Ignorant people are ignorant. The religion itself has nothing to do with it. People just use it as a tool to achieve what they want because they know the power that religion has over people, because most are really need something to believe in and are happy to be led on a leash, even if it's down a horrible path.
Was Jesus a person who put his religious beliefs ahead of reason and human compassion? Quite to the contrary. He stood up to the religous leaders of the day. He certainly didn't say cruel things or cut people's spinal chords.
That remains to be seen.
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If it weren't religious belief, people would justify their actions through another twisted form of justice.
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More people have been tortured, executed, slaughtered, and massacred throughout history for reasons outside of religious justification than with religious justification. Military conquest, ethnic cleansing, tribal warfare, survival based on requiring someone else's resources... the list goes on and on, and has been going on since before religion or even history.
The problem here is people justifying cruelty... with whatever excuse they can come up with. Religion is not, and has never been the problem. People have always been the problem, because the simple fact of the matter is people can be cruel, and it is just common sense that in order to get away with being cruel, people have to justify their actions. In cultures that rely upon religion to keep people from being cruel - people who want to be cruel have to attempt to justify their actions through religious reasons. In other words, when people attempt to justify cruelty with religion, it is because religion is actually the obstacle to their cruelty. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother trying to overcome the objection.
The original post is about a culture that believes in 'an eye for an eye' style justice. This is not uncommon, and has existed throughout the ages. The only distinction here, is that the justification they chose was religion. If there was no religious justification, they would have found justification, because these people want to inflict this kind of punishment. Also note that there were people who refused to apply the punishment - for religious reasons - and might I add the same religion. This guy might get spared a cruel and unusual punishment because of religion.
As usual, the problem is not religion, but because we've got two small factions of people who are profoundly and oversensitively pro and anti religion on this forum, of course this thread had to derail into an argument over the validity of religion.
To address whether or not America is a Christian nation. The answer is simple. It used to be.
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I'll say this one more time. I'm not anti religion, I'm anti idiot. People who say and do horrible things to other people in the name of their religion are idiots.
Any who, this thread was a clear attempt to insinuate that Christianity is inherently superior to Islam. I could care less which is better than the other. It depends on the people who practice them. There are shitty Christians and shitty Muslims.
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