[PUG] The "English Only" Movement

[bamf]

^^^Well, folks, that proves it. We all just need to learn to speak Chinese! But which kind?

I hear it Chinese is very tricky to learn for English-speakers, and they put a great deal of emphasis on tone and expression -- more than simply the word's sound -- how you say it carries more meaning than it does in English. A word is a word is a word, in English. But you can say the same word with a different tone and make it mean something completely different in Chinese.

Isn't that fascinating?

But never mind, I'm derailing...

It is fascinating! I taught in an English as a Second Language classroom at the refugee center in my city last year, and the differences in languages can be amazing. Vietnamese is so different than English in the same sense as Chinese. The same word can mean 20 different things depending on emphasis.

 

[testing]

Wow, did you really? Do you speak Vietnamese?

Everybody here is so smart and nice.

I would love to do something like that, that would really, materially help people to help themselves...

 

[DoveAlexa]

If I was going to stay in Canada, learning Mandarin would have been super useful. Not only was I surrounded by Mandarin speaking people in general, but at work we'd always get new people who barely spoke English. Over here though its not so useful.

On Vietnamese: yeah, heard about that. 90% of the language is in pronunciation o_o.

 

[arbygil]

I don't really mind this so much, not as an idea anyway, although I don't like the bigotted reasons behind this.

Where I work we have to provide a tenancy lease in English and Polish, yet English is our official language. The reason behind this is because if we don't our Polish tenants could go to court and they'd declare our lease null and void. It's like wtf? If I were to use this excuse in Poland I'd be laughed out the room, yet our government bends over and asks if the vodka bottle could be inserted more (I apologise for the gross imagery with racist undertones).

English may not be the official language of the US, but why isn't it?

That's the key under the manure. It's not about adopting an "official" language; it never was. It's about excluding certain people. Kind of like a 1950s country club.

The whole thing about the immigration movement and the "English only" movement and the other similar tea movements is that they don't include or help anyone. They simply force others out of their circle because they're not good enough to be in their country.

Which I HATE with a passion.

Coffee party, all the way!

 

[Saru Inc]

mexico is doing well? when did that happen?

I lol'd.


I think English should remain the one and only language for anything official, but in areas where there's a very very heavy population of a non english speaking type, such as arizona/new mexico/southern texas then you can have road signs in spanish as well in english. (insert spanish with any other regional language)

 

[Raccoon Love]

mexico is doing well? when did that happen?

Mexico's economy is growing rapidly. The only problem with Mexico is its drug mafia, which is why the country is in a state of constant violence. Mexico is also naturally rich in resources, the corruption just takes most out of that. But hey, its interesting how Mexico provides more rights to its LGBT population...Mexico offering more human rights to its population? We sure are behind...

I agree with Iceland and Sweden, they don't really have an official language and they are reported to have very high standards of living. Iceland does not even have an official military. They also have the biggest amount of books per capita, sounds like an awesome place to me

 

[894tt3h9]

I love how America is violating its own value system.

That's what America does best.

Maybe I should elaborate here since apparently according to some what I've said is nasty and bigoted... lol.
I personally don't see the big deal when it comes to official languages. Here in Canada our languages are English and French, and as far as I know each province has its own rules about how long you have to learn French for. For me, I had to start learning in the 4th grade and continue into the 9th. I took it until the 11th by my own choice and retained none of it.

It doesn't bother me if everything is labeled in two languages. It wouldn't bother me if everything was labeled only in one. But since we have an entire province which is almost entirely French I just don't see that happening country-wide.

Not only that, even if you give our country an official language of ONLY English, you're still going to be required in many cases to speak 2 languages. I know here in Vancouver for example there are many jobs where you are required to speak Chinese, Mandarin, Japanese, etc. English speaking people who are born in Canada more than likely don't know these languages so we automatically miss out on potential jobs because we can't speak the language they're requiring. There have been SO many jobs that I have wanted but I don't even know basic phrases in the languages they want. And I just don't care.

I am making the assumption in that in the USA where you have dense populations of Spanish speaking people or people who speak another language, you'll find the same. An official language isn't going to change that.

However, I do think that if people are going to move to Canada the onus should be on them to learn some English. There are no shortage of ESL courses out there that can be taken in order to learn the basics and in many cases that is all you're going to need. If you move into a community where there are large amounts of people speaking your language, you're going to be fine and I find that for the most part, other native language speaking people are willing to be helpful.

I work in an industry that is dominated by non-English speaking people. There are more non-English speaking people than English speaking people. When I communicate with them whether it be in person, on the phone or through email I have to modify the way that I communicate in order to get through to them. I have dealt with people who don't know how to read and write and I have had to fill out paperwork for them because they don't know how to do it (And this goes for English speaking people who are BORN in north america too!).

So in my opinion, whether you are English speaking or not you are going to run into challenges with people who don't speak your language regardless of whether there is an Official Language or not.

 

[Barnabas]

Actually, I don't say it as though it's an excuse.
You apparently interpret it as an excuse


I was merely pointing this out. There are hundreds
of things we do inefficiently. We just want to change
this because we're selfish. It doesn't come down to
inefficiency. I believe you are the one finding an excuse
here. I was adding on to your already existing excuse.

Yes a legitimate reason to change something is an excuse as opposed to labeling it selfish and not doing anything about it.

 

[youhemmein]

Has no one noticed that a relatively large portion of Americans who do speak English haven't even mastered the language?

 

[bamf]

Has no one noticed that a relatively large portion of Americans who do speak English haven't even mastered the language?

What is you talking bout?

 

[Bird]

Yes a legitimate reason to change something is an excuse as opposed to labeling it selfish and not doing anything about it.

Lol. Please read this over and over again.
You've just made me laugh so incredibly
hard. I wish you could be here to share
my amusement with me.

 

[jimtaylor]

I'm not sure i agree that all documents should be written in English only, because bilingual proficiency is an asset in a globalized world. I think we seriously underestimate how difficult it is to learn a different language, especially if you're living in a part of the world where that language is reinforced as the dominant language of communication from birth to whenever, but you've not received any formal education in the language much less hear it spoken in your own country. If you're an adult who migrated to an English speaking country and has never had the chance to hear English being spoken regularly, it's going to be very difficult to simply learn a few English phrases and suddenly speak the language fluently. It will take a while, and having documents available in the language will at least help with the transition from one language to the other to help with comprehension. Not sure how reasonable it would be to expect someone to read a document - especially legal and other more technical, or jargon filled documents in a subject which is not a fluent first language.

I don't understand why it always has to be an either or choice in situations like this. Most of the country speaks English and yes our country has been founded on many nationalities speaking many different languages. The truth is though, those people, our ancestors came here and over time eventually learned English. If not we would see that every street sign would be in English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, etc... The fact of the matter it isn't and now the major push is not for these languages but for Spanish. The major influx of Spanish speaking peoples has made it an issue. Of course we have evolved a little since those times but still you do not see immigrants from any other nationalities demanding this in such a way. From what I have seen, most come over and learn the language.

I don

 

[Soulful]

What makes sense and what is actually needed are sometimes two very different things, imo.

This is somewhat of a smorgasbord, but how I see it is: People need support and access to information. The only way to truly make it available to them is to ensure it is in a language they understand. Immigrating to a country with a different language is HARD and chronically stressful; in addition, it takes a long time to learn enough of a language to feel comfortable using it and to be able to communicate effectively. The more support that people have, the more informed and included they are, the more likely they are to flourish. Flourishing communities make for more prosperous communities - higher income levels, less poverty, less crime, higher high school graduation rates, and all of that wonderful stuff. I don't see the value of making life more difficult for people, and of making the immigration and integration process any more difficult than it already is. And if that isn't enough, effects of poor integration trickle out into the rest of the population.

 

[jimtaylor]

What makes sense and what is actually needed are sometimes two very different things, imo.

This is somewhat of a smorgasbord, but how I see it is: People need support and access to information. The only way to truly make it available to them is to ensure it is in a language they understand. Immigrating to a country with a different language is HARD and chronically stressful; in addition, it takes a long time to learn enough of a language to feel comfortable using it and to be able to communicate effectively. The more support that people have, the more informed and included they are, the more likely they are to flourish. Flourishing communities make for more prosperous communities - higher income levels, less poverty, less crime, higher high school graduation rates, and all of that wonderful stuff. I don't see the value of making life more difficult for people, and of making the immigration and integration process any more difficult than it already is. And if that isn't enough, effects of poor integration trickle out into the rest of the population.

Agreed, in an ideal world we would be able to do all these things but the sad thing is we don't. So I think it comes down to what is practical versus what we would like to do. I would really love that anybody who moved to the US would find it the most wonderful experience in the world but that's not going to happen. People are going to find it hard and the capacity of us being able to do something about it is limited. This situation becomes less a social issue and more a practicality issue. It might be a mean thing to say, but which one of you is going to want to spend the extra money and time to have to print every document in English plus a plethora of many other languages? It is not practical to have to adjust to every language. Sometimes a sacrifice has to be made to ensure that production is continued. Spending all the money and time to make sure everybody is all happy when they move to the United States takes away time and money from other more important things.

Also how many of you have actually tried to read a legal document? Even when it is written in English, it is in another language. That is why you have lawyers and they still don't know what the stuff says half the time. Why spend the money and time to make everything in two+ languages when most of the time they still will not understand it? Anybody who knows about this stuff knows that trying to convert from one language to another is difficult. It

 

[kita]

I think it would be much more expensive to teach immigrants English than it is to make materials available in other prominent languages, which isn't even necessary all the time because we have many government employees, lawyers, teachers, accountants, etc who speak languages other than English.

Language doesn't and shouldn't exclude anyone from being American.

 

[Raccoon Love]

I don't understand why it always has to be an either or choice in situations like this. Most of the country speaks English and yes our country has been founded on many nationalities speaking many different languages. The truth is though, those people, our ancestors came here and over time eventually learned English. If not we would see that every street sign would be in English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, etc... The fact of the matter it isn't and now the major push is not for these languages but for Spanish. The major influx of Spanish speaking peoples has made it an issue. Of course we have evolved a little since those times but still you do not see immigrants from any other nationalities demanding this in such a way. From what I have seen, most come over and learn the language.

I don’t see people going all crazy demanding that German, French, Arabic, Chinese, etc.. that all documents be printed in those languages. Why because the influx of people from those populations is minimal compared to the Spanish one and most of those coming from those populations are educated and speak the World Wide language of business; English. English is the most commonly used language in National Business. It replaced French as that language so I believe for anything pertaining to business it should be in English.

What problem I have with this is that our ancestors did come over and did expect special treatment; meaning that everything be written in their language, like the large group of Spanish speaking immigrants are now. I feel they have no right to come in and demand that everybody adjust to them.
Now like I said I don’t think this should be an either or choice. I believe for large impact documents like laws, legal documents, public announcements; it should be posted in multiple languages, not just English and Spanish to insure that everybody understands. The biggest reason this is an issue is the large Spanish population but I think it is up to them to adapt if they want to come to the US which is a majority English speaking country. It makes no sense that the majority should have to change to adapt to the minority. This is not a racial comment; this is just in terms of anything. If a minority population of German speaking people came here I would say the same thing. The majority is English; therefore people who are coming in should be ready to have to learn the majorities’ language.
We should not discourage the use of multiple languages either. I believe it should be up to the individual to have to learn the language. Programs that are in place should encourage learning of English but if the individual does not want to learn then the rest of should not have to adapt to them. It is inefficient to have to have every single thing published in a hundred different languages. Imagine having to print a hundred page legal document in four different languages… It is not good business practice and is beyond crazy to expect companies, law-firms and such to have to pay the extra money to do this for a minority of the population.

Spanish is not the only language that is pushed upon, Hawaiians speak Hawaiian, Haitians speak Creole, some Canadians speak French. People tend to generally assume most immigrants come from Mexico now a days, though it is true they are a majority due to relative closeness, we cannot underestimate the populations from other immigrants. This can be classified as even a racial issue but regardless, this is not only limited to immigrants. Many Americans keep strong ties to their origin, many words are borrowed from different languages. To declare English as an essential language and one that everyone should learn sounds rational on paper with the way the economy is currently shaped. This however, is not effective in the long run. Times change and with that we have new superpowers, look at China, India, Brazil. It is most convenient to not have the believe that English is the language of business because that is subject to change and coming generations must be prepared. It is true, no one can be forced to learn a language but I highly believe it should be given more importance, since the time the child actually begins school. Children are naturally curious and quickly picked up on languages at that age. Sadly that is something that's not emphasised today, not from the education system I've seen.

 

[Kavalan]

Also how many of you have actually tried to read a legal document?

I have and think that law should be restructured as so laymen can understand the language. But that's an issue for another time.

Also as far as legal council is concerned... and interpreter would make it quite feasible for the conveying of information from one language to another.

IMHO I think that the US is resistant to the fact that English can not solve all problems. Learn a new language and a different culture. Most other nations have their citizens learning multiple as well.

 

[jimtaylor]

I agree that we should learn multiple languages but again it comes to the individual. Those who want to learn another language should and those who don't shouldn't have to. Yet if I where to move to Canada, I would expect I would have to learn French. I would not expect the French population to speak English to adapt to me. I am going to adapt to the majority because it is unreasonable and not efficient to expect the majority to adapt.

Again I am referring to Spanish because that is the a large part of the immigration going on and I understand things change. Yet the points you are making infer that by making multiple languages documented that the majority of English speaking peoples in the US will change their ways. Which is not going to happen.

 

[bamf]

If reading a legal document in a language you understand is hard, imagine reading it from the standpoint of a ELL. It would be like an English speaker reading a Spanish book written in French.

These people want to learn English, but access to such classes is continuously underfunded, cut, an inappropriately brief. Do we just say "screw it" in the mean time and completely give up? Printing important documents in other languages is important not only for immigrants, but also for US citizens.

 

[Soulful]

I agree that we should learn multiple languages but again it comes to the individual. Those who want to learn another language should and those who don't shouldn't have to. Yet if I where to move to Canada, I would expect I would have to learn French. I would not expect the French population to speak English to adapt to me. I am going to adapt to the majority because it is unreasonable and not efficient to expect the majority to adapt.

I understand the broader meaning of what you're saying, but in terms of learning French to live in Canada, you wouldn't have to learn it at all unless you moved to very specific areas of the country.

Agreed, in an ideal world we would be able to do all these things but the sad thing is we don't. So I think it comes down to what is practical versus what we would like to do. I would really love that anybody who moved to the US would find it the most wonderful experience in the world but that's not going to happen. People are going to find it hard and the capacity of us being able to do something about it is limited. This situation becomes less a social issue and more a practicality issue. It might be a mean thing to say, but which one of you is going to want to spend the extra money and time to have to print every document in English plus a plethora of many other languages? It is not practical to have to adjust to every language. Sometimes a sacrifice has to be made to ensure that production is continued. Spending all the money and time to make sure everybody is all happy when they move to the United States takes away time and money from other more important things.

Also how many of you have actually tried to read a legal document? Even when it is written in English, it is in another language. That is why you have lawyers and they still don't know what the stuff says half the time. Why spend the money and time to make everything in two+ languages when most of the time they still will not understand it? Anybody who knows about this stuff knows that trying to convert from one language to another is difficult. It’s not as simple as just finding the same word in another language. Being able to comprehend something is not going to help just because it is in Spanish. It is still going to be like giving someone a book about the rules and standards of COBRA to someone who knows nothing about the medical industry. They will know the words are words but they will have no clue what they are saying. So just changing the words to Spanish is going to help with the small things but the main point behind this is that the important ones must be changed as well. That is not going to do anything but cost money and time. So sadly it is not a perfect world and the only way to make sure it doesn’t happen would be to teach immigrants English to such a degree that it would be as if they were born speaking the language but that is not feasible.

The thing is, a lot of people want to learn, but it takes a long time and they'll probably never feel nearly as comfortable with the language as we do. Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is the mental stress and shock they're undergoing for at least the first couple of years, and oftentimes financial as well, while at the same time trying to master a language. It's not uncommon for many immigrants to face all of that in addition to the regular stress each one of us face day-to-day.

It's not to say that other-language resources/supports should be made available so that learning English isn't necessary - but they HAVE TO be made available if people are to succeed, even if only for the reason that there is an in-between time from when someone immigrates to when they are able to communicate. Yes, it's more expensive than not doing it, thus it may be seen as impractical, but it's likely a heck of a lot less expensive than later dealing with the social problems that result from people not getting help when they need it. There is something to be said about the value of integration and inclusive measures.

Also, I'm not suggesting that every document should be translated into every single language. Most commonly, communities that are supportive of their immigrant populations translate documents into only the languages that are most used within that community. It seems to work well here.

If reading a legal document in a language you understand is hard, imagine reading it from the standpoint of a ELL. It would be like an English speaker reading a Spanish book written in French.

These people want to learn English, but access to such classes is continuously underfunded, cut, an inappropriately brief. Do we just say "screw it" in the mean time and completely give up? Printing important documents in other languages is important not only for immigrants, but also for US citizens.

*nods* very much in agreement.