The 14th Amendment

This is just a small part of a bigger problem, namely that many laws and guiding documents that this country was founded on are no longer doing what they were intended to do or times and circustamces have changed so much they are no longer relevent. Too many people want to stay dumb and pretend its still 1950 (or 1850) and the politicans play to that. What Indy pointed out is a huge problem. Changing the fundemental laws of our country is such a hard thing to do that it's almost impossible in today's political climate. Too big to fail? I think we are too big to not fail. It almost happened with the banking crisis and it's coming again sooner probably than later.
 
alcyone said:
Chances are, your DNA is already on record somewhere anyway.
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Could be but I don't know of any databases I have consented to being part of (unless it was in the superfine print before a surgery) and the government does not have publicly known access.

A lot of the children of immigrants are Hispanic, and are already profiled for crimes. Having a database accessible by the government would make a disproportionately Hispanic database and I'd be fearful of seeing racial profiling come into play. Would the police have access to such a database to search for crime-connections even when the person has no criminal record? To parents have the right to consent their children's DNA to the government? Would illegal immigrants start giving dangerous "back alley" births to avoid deportation? Would they resort to risky abortions to avoid deportation?

There are a lot of potential negative outcomes to DNA record-keeping in my opinion.
 
I don't particularly like the idea of restricting citizenship by repealing the 14th amendment. It sets a dangerous precedent for returning to a standard that I really do not want to see.

I like having Hispanic people here, anyway. Most of the people I know have benefited from their coming over here. My mother and father, especially.
 
The 14th Amendment was passed to ensure free black slaves citizenship in the United States, so I'm curious how that translates to today.

I'm personally for the 14th Amendment (I mean these citizens will grow up to be adults and the government can tax the hell out of their paychecks and what-not) and I don't think citizenship should be such a daunting process (seeing as we pretty-much forced a military government in Mexico to sign the treating of Hidalgo, stole land for cheap, stole even more land outside of the treaty, and then basically burned the treaty and deported the people living on the land that we promised citizenship and land-rights to) but I know there are pros and cons to the situation.

I've been thinking about it for the past few days and I'm having a hard time forming a good list of pros and cons to keeping the 14th Amendment. I'm pretty much for it because we screwed these people's ancestors royally, but I'd really appreciate it if people could give me a few different pros and then some cons to this Amendment.
 
I am in the minority with my opinion, but I am of the opinion that the 14th amendment needs to be repealed and changed. It does not make sense to me that if you are born in this country by someone who is not a citizen of some kind, you are considered a citizen. I understand that some non-citizens could understand and fit in the country, but that does not change the fact that they are not legally citizens. Just because you are born in a spot, you are concidered a citizen there? Nope, that's illogical to me. This amendment has outgrown its purpose. It was useful at one time, but now it is has become problimatic, as people view it (mostly illegals) as something to exploit.

I have a very conservitive stance on illegal immigration, so I know that is largely where this opinion of mine comes from.

That being said, I do think the process of becoming a natrualized citizen to the US is far too convolouted and difficult to do. That is what needs to be reformed the most. That would solve most of the problems we have with illegal immigration. I think a combination of strict illegal immagration laws, and relaxed immigration laws, would be the best medicine for the entire problem. And yes, this does include the editing of the 14th amendment.
 
IndigoSensor said:
I am in the minority with my opinion, but I am of the opinion that the 14th amendment needs to be repealed and changed. It does not make sense to me that if you are born in this country by someone who is not a citizen of some kind, you are considered a citizen. I understand that some non-citizens could understand and fit in the country, but that does not change the fact that they are not legally citizens. Just because you are born in a spot, you are considered a citizen there? Nope, that's illogical to me. This amendment has outgrown its purpose. It was useful at one time, but now it has become problematic, as people view it (mostly illegals) as something to exploit.
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I don't really think it's logical that being born to citizens makes one a citizen, either. It implies that being related to a citizen somehow makes you "better" or "more deserving" of citizenship inherently, which I don't believe is true.

I personally think that if they're going to adopt a tougher stand on what constitutes citizenship now, they should make citizenship a privilege, and require everyone to meet certain standards in order to keep it. Perhaps doing a certain amount of government service. You could still live here if you weren't a citizen, and you'd still have to pay taxes, but you wouldn't have all the same rights.

But I really don't think they should bother to adopt a tougher stand on it. It's never been something that was hard to obtain, I don't see why we should start closing our doors now. Besides... I'm pretty sure that soon, we'll be begging people to come here. Immigration is slowing down, and if things don't improve, we may have an emigration problem.
I have a very conservative stance on illegal immigration, so I know that is largely where this opinion of mine comes from.
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I suspected that.
That being said, I do think the process of becoming a naturalized citizen to the US is far too convoluted and difficult to do. That is what needs to be reformed the most. That would solve most of the problems we have with illegal immigration. I think a combination of strict illegal immigration laws, and relaxed immigration laws, would be the best medicine for the entire problem. And yes, this does include the editing of the 14th amendment.
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Well, if you're going to make it that hard for people to sneak in, the least you can do is make it more feasible to get in through official channels.

If you repeal the 14th amendment, you make it easier for the states to decide not to count minorities as citizens, and thus create an underclass. Is that what you want?
 
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mf said:
The 14th Amendment was passed to ensure free black slaves citizenship in the United States, so I'm curious how that translates to today.

I'm personally for the 14th Amendment (I mean these citizens will grow up to be adults and the government can tax the hell out of their paychecks and what-not) and I don't think citizenship should be such a daunting process (seeing as we pretty-much forced a military government in Mexico to sign the treating of Hidalgo, stole land for cheap, stole even more land outside of the treaty, and then basically burned the treaty and deported the people living on the land that we promised citizenship and land-rights to) but I know there are pros and cons to the situation.

I've been thinking about it for the past few days and I'm having a hard time forming a good list of pros and cons to keeping the 14th Amendment. I'm pretty much for it because we screwed these people's ancestors royally, but I'd really appreciate it if people could give me a few different pros and then some cons to this Amendment.
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Whoa there...

the 14th amendment was not only about the freed slaves. It was also about the chinese immigrants who had come to the west to build the railroad system. It is included in the discussion of the amendments congressional minutes. this was further held up in the supreme court....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark

Wong Kim Ark[1] (黃金德; Toisanese: wong11 gim33 'ak3; Cantonese: wong4 gam1 dak1; Mandarin: hu
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magister343 said:
I don't think anyone should be born a citizen, including those like myself whose family has been here since long before the nation was founded. I'd make citizenship a contract that could only be entered with informed consent, requiring testing in English literacy, basic math, history, and civics first. Public education in such subjects would be available for free to any non-citizen resident at any age, but neither taking part in said public education before seeking citizenship nor seeking citizenship at all would be mandatory.

I'd also have open boarders, no requirements like visas or green cards.
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Where do we send the people that were born here, but don't qualify?
If they don't qualify it's not as though they can afford to buy plane tickets and move elsewhere. If they've missed out on basic education their paycheck probably isn't going to be that substantial.
 
Labor camps and purgatory for the undeserving, obviously. They don't exist, if we don't see them. /irony

I agree that it doesn't make much sense for someone to be citizen by territory; it also doesn't make sense to be citizen by parents. Citizenship (like inheritance) doesn't make much sense, period.

If you change the 14th Amendment, then you need even milder policy towards non-citizens, because you'll have lots of them anyway.

The major problem here is rather why people push that hard to be part of another country, and don't stay home. It's not because their country isn't beautiful and full of nature and land usually, but because of outsourced economic slavery.

You want a clean home - take a good look at your dirty backyard first.
 
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