I do not mean to say I discount them. I only mean to say they were steps toward advancement. They have intrinsic value for bringing us this far. But to dwell in the past and not move forward is less than prudent. I'm moving forward.
Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World:
- Thread starter Rift Zone
- Start date
Yeah, I know, I think this view is fundamentally mistaken.
Novelty trumphs perrenial truth, time tested wisdom and tradition in this perspective and that doesnt sound right. If you were to believe this in your everyday life you would discount all memory, learning and experience and your life would be like that movie 50 first dates. So if it doesnt make sense as a prescription for individual life its going to be hard to convince me its a good prescription for social life either. That's my reasoning anyway and I've given this kind of thing a lot of thought and spent a lot of time reading about it.
The process of learning explicitly means having more "filters" to process information through. Learning something as an individual means picking up a new concept and then referencing input with it. My description of my approach is exactly the same thing. It amounts to learning on a social scale. You seem to argue ignorance is prefered. I disagree.
What about memory? Please clarify. I don't know if I agree or not. I clearly misunderstood you.
If innovation and the new and novel trumph all tradition and experience then you're clearly not a fan of memory, outcome of the ideas you were describing is a society which looks a lot like 50 first dates.
Just curious, if you don't mind...do you have a very good memory? If you do, do you have it naturaly, or you had to develop it?
Progress trumps tradition. Everything humanity is exists because we have built upon existing knowledge and technology. Your attempt to build an argument that I discount all that brought us here will fail miserably. Continue with that line of reasoning if you wish but you will only demonstrate the benefit of my approach to all this. We have got this far but we are not done yet! Humanity does not possess wisdom in all areas. I endeavor to take human wisdom another step further. I take all the innovation humanity has developed and forge new ground with it.
You seem to advocate dwelling in our current state forever. Your line of reasoning has been dwelling in stagnation for a few replies now. I ask that you recognize moving forward is not denial of past; it is to embrace it. It is both an acknowledgement of past along with our capacity to improve upon everything. It is to view humanity as an ever-improving system. It is to understand further development is our identity.
50 first dates? lol It would appear your view of the big picture here is severely limited by your own perspectives. Know that we have entirely distinct perspectives.
I love your big beautiful brain [MENTION=10289]Rift Zone[/MENTION]
I do believe that the only way that spiritual atheists would make a dent in the world today is if they banned together, and that would be a form of meetings or what-have you on a regular basis once a week. In other words it would be like a church. And truthfully, regardless of atheists not wanting to conform to some kind of church type meeting, if they don't the word wont spread and the change that they want to happen will be incredibly slow.
However, if they ever did I think it would do some wondrous things. The meetings would be information about your world, science, what we can do to make this place we live in better, what we can do to make ourselves better, and absolutely nothing about god. A mixture of self help, yoga, environmental walk-abouts, advances in science and it would look a lot like hippies in a park.
Regardless of what your dream is it will be people united that make it happen. A lot of people who go to church or say they're this or that religious belief are agnostic, they don't know if there's for sure a god and wouldn't feel bad to abandon their beliefs. Those are they kinds of people who would leave the church and rather quickly for something that I have described. It's not so much that they keep going for the church as they keep going for the people and the socialization. Do that, rise up a group of people who want to make the world a better place, meet them and meet them often and they will do more than try.
I do believe that the only way that spiritual atheists would make a dent in the world today is if they banned together, and that would be a form of meetings or what-have you on a regular basis once a week. In other words it would be like a church. And truthfully, regardless of atheists not wanting to conform to some kind of church type meeting, if they don't the word wont spread and the change that they want to happen will be incredibly slow.
However, if they ever did I think it would do some wondrous things. The meetings would be information about your world, science, what we can do to make this place we live in better, what we can do to make ourselves better, and absolutely nothing about god. A mixture of self help, yoga, environmental walk-abouts, advances in science and it would look a lot like hippies in a park.
Regardless of what your dream is it will be people united that make it happen. A lot of people who go to church or say they're this or that religious belief are agnostic, they don't know if there's for sure a god and wouldn't feel bad to abandon their beliefs. Those are they kinds of people who would leave the church and rather quickly for something that I have described. It's not so much that they keep going for the church as they keep going for the people and the socialization. Do that, rise up a group of people who want to make the world a better place, meet them and meet them often and they will do more than try.
I think there's value to both sides of this argument. There are clearly issues with the current state of things, but they don't necessarily stem from religion. I know we've talked about religion for sometime [MENTION=10289]Rift Zone[/MENTION] ( 
) so I apologize for repeating myself, but I think condemning religion in it's whole isn't right. I feel approaching atheism through your approach makes atheism somewhat of a religion in itself....I often wonder what 'makes' a religion...and I guess I would ask you how your approach is not a new religion in itself?
I think we take extremely broad and dangerous actions lumping religion as a whole together...there are many religions out there, with varying beliefs. These beliefs often idolize nature and the world around us- in fact, we can see that somewhat in Christianity, although the White Paper famously highlights that Christians see the world as a resource that they hold dominion over, rather than an equal entity which they should protect. Moreover, we need to separate the institution of religion from the actual practice of religion, which are two separate and completely different aspects. Many religious people who are part of churches have movements to green their parishes and practices. They believe that the Earth is a gift from God, and that it is our duty to protect and cherish it. Additionally, there are a multitude of other religions such as paganism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism....all which how the earth and our environment in high regards. From my perspective, it seems like atheism is yet another category of these 'beliefs' (I believe atheism IS a belief), that have similar components.
I think what needs to be done is to make these issues separate from belief- it shouldn't matter if you're an atheist or a Christian...these are fundamental issues that impact everyone and all beliefs, making it an endeavour that we all need to participate in. Creating silos and exclusions based on faith (or no faith) seems to only work against the purpose of saving the world. We've gotten into this place because we separate and alienate others...instead we need to come together on a human level.
I know this is what you think you're doing, connecting to the humanity of individuals, but I think someone can be a Christian or an Atheist, and still connect and be successful in your goal.
) so I apologize for repeating myself, but I think condemning religion in it's whole isn't right. I feel approaching atheism through your approach makes atheism somewhat of a religion in itself....I often wonder what 'makes' a religion...and I guess I would ask you how your approach is not a new religion in itself?I think we take extremely broad and dangerous actions lumping religion as a whole together...there are many religions out there, with varying beliefs. These beliefs often idolize nature and the world around us- in fact, we can see that somewhat in Christianity, although the White Paper famously highlights that Christians see the world as a resource that they hold dominion over, rather than an equal entity which they should protect. Moreover, we need to separate the institution of religion from the actual practice of religion, which are two separate and completely different aspects. Many religious people who are part of churches have movements to green their parishes and practices. They believe that the Earth is a gift from God, and that it is our duty to protect and cherish it. Additionally, there are a multitude of other religions such as paganism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism....all which how the earth and our environment in high regards. From my perspective, it seems like atheism is yet another category of these 'beliefs' (I believe atheism IS a belief), that have similar components.
I think what needs to be done is to make these issues separate from belief- it shouldn't matter if you're an atheist or a Christian...these are fundamental issues that impact everyone and all beliefs, making it an endeavour that we all need to participate in. Creating silos and exclusions based on faith (or no faith) seems to only work against the purpose of saving the world. We've gotten into this place because we separate and alienate others...instead we need to come together on a human level.
I know this is what you think you're doing, connecting to the humanity of individuals, but I think someone can be a Christian or an Atheist, and still connect and be successful in your goal.
You are very kind [MENTION=10166]DonTaushMe[/MENTION] -Thank you for the heart warming compliment. I'm equally impressed with your capacity and insight!
You are exactly right! My goal in all this is to develop a new spiritual path. -umm, more accurately, to make that path more clear and widely understood. The first step is merely getting these ideas out there. Widespread misconceptions about spirituality and atheism has given us an atmosphere that assumes atheism is the path of spiritual denial. How utterly ridiculous! Atheist spirituality is the purest and most empowering expression of spirituality there is. Making that knowledge more common is the immediate goal.
Moving forward from there looks exactly like what you describe! Humanity expresses their spirituality in incredibly diverse ways. I fully suspect a world full of atheists will diversify spiritual approaches to the same degree we find within religion today. I'm getting ahead of myself here... All that starts with public affirmation of atheist spirituality. We do need to organize! Spirituality will remain an avenue of global subjugation if we don't!
I forget his name but there was an astrophysicist who was talking about Big Bang Theory. His point captures your insight well. He mentioned BBT has issues but there's really not many places to go if one wishes to "jump ship". Atheist spirituality needs to give people a place land. We need to get out there and publicly affirm our perspectives. Then we need to teach them who they really are. Humanity is lost, we will lose our world if we stray much further.
The character of this planet does not reflect the character of humanity! It reflects the character of the bible. -wrought with suffering, subjugation and elite rulers. Atheist spirituality teaches we are the most potent and capable beings known to exist. It teaches we are kin with all life. It teaches our identity is constant development. It teaches making a better world for ourselves is an intrinsic function of our nature! It is who we are! If religion didn't squander our being so greatly, we would already have a world we'd be happy with. Binding together and moving forward with our true identity rather than some archaic philosophy of hate that gave rise to the most miserable era in human history will only serve to bring out the best in us and our world.
I own spiritual-atheist.net. I have a lot on my plate so developing community alone is more than I'm prepared to accomplish at this point. Still, that site exists for that exact reason. If anyone wishes to start building community around atheist spirituality, I would love to collaborate! I'd be delighted to invest in it now. We can take the first two steps in unison if we really wanted to! I'm down for doing it right now provided it's a community effort. If I develop it alone, I'll wait till I'm stronger in a few different areas.
My concern only involves Abrahamic religions for a reason. Paganism and Eastern Philosophies are very closely aligned to what atheist spirituality amount to. They have my blessings. Abrahamic religions have my intense disdain for reasons that are very clear in this thread. Abrahamic religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity!!!! Please forgive this observation but I think you confuse spirituality with religion. Until you make the distinction and realize the relationship between the two, you will necessarily miss the point of all this. Religion, for the purposes of this discussion explicitly means Abrahamic. Religion is subjugation! No argument can refute that. The bottom half of the introductory post is what you are tying to defend. I'll fight you on that every step of the way. The only merit religion has it to make an attempt at addressing spirituality. And it fails miserably. Rather than empower us, it breaks us down. Any philosophy that describes humanity as some entity's little bitch needs to be eradicated but that world view assures humanity itself becomes subordinate. Look at the world we live in! Reference that against the bottom half of the introductory post! This world has become the teachings of religion. When it is stomped out of existence this world will become a direct expression of atheist spirituality. Kindly look at the teachings of atheist spirituality. Building a world from that perspective is salvation.I think there's value to both sides of this argument. There are clearly issues with the current state of things, but they don't necessarily stem from religion. I know we've talked about religion for sometime [MENTION=10289]Rift Zone[/MENTION] (
I think we take extremely broad and dangerous actions lumping religion as a whole together...there are many religions out there, with varying beliefs. These beliefs often idolize nature and the world around us- in fact, we can see that somewhat in Christianity, although the White Paper famously highlights that Christians see the world as a resource that they hold dominion over, rather than an equal entity which they should protect. Moreover, we need to separate the institution of religion from the actual practice of religion, which are two separate and completely different aspects. Many religious people who are part of churches have movements to green their parishes and practices. They believe that the Earth is a gift from God, and that it is our duty to protect and cherish it. Additionally, there are a multitude of other religions such as paganism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism....all which how the earth and our environment in high regards. From my perspective, it seems like atheism is yet another category of these 'beliefs' (I believe atheism IS a belief), that have similar components.
I think what needs to be done is to make these issues separate from belief- it shouldn't matter if you're an atheist or a Christian...these are fundamental issues that impact everyone and all beliefs, making it an endeavour that we all need to participate in. Creating silos and exclusions based on faith (or no faith) seems to only work against the purpose of saving the world. We've gotten into this place because we separate and alienate others...instead we need to come together on a human level.
I know this is what you think you're doing, connecting to the humanity of individuals, but I think someone can be a Christian or an Atheist, and still connect and be successful in your goal.
I dont know whether its good or average, how do you test things like that?
Although I'm not really sure of the relevance.
Its a lousy form of discussion to tell others their opinion and wait for them to challenge you on it.
Now you can carry on that tradition or progress to something different, what do you think? You going to remember this post long enough for it to permit growth and development or not?
As far as I can tell Money and Power rule the world. Your going to have to fight the power. You can either fight it now and die or starve to death later wishing you would have done something sooner. These people are not going to go down without a fight. And most humans will not do anything unless they are faced with certain death. You have to be willing to die for what you believe if you want any change to happen. I do not see people doing anything to change. They are too wrapped up in the world that they are a part of. And the majority of them are waiting for some super human person to save them. So they have zero incentive to do anything but sit back and wait for God. Which people have already been doing for thousands of years. And yet they keep doing the same things. People are insane and think that they are not. They just keep doing the same crap their parents and grandparents did to no avail. This planet is screwed. And we did it all together. I am done. This life is shit and it's not going to get better. Try as you may it will just end up worse....
Then you mean to say we are in complete agreement? Fantastic! -Because if what's presented here could be refuted,I wouldn't be a proponent of it in the first place. I'm glad we need not argue over topics that will go nowhere but forward.
I think something different is in the works right now. My memory is pretty damn good.Now you can carry on that tradition or progress to something different, what do you think? You going to remember this post long enough for it to permit growth and development or not?
The issue is that Abrahamic religions have evolved out of these philosophies. Many parts of Christianity are from paganism. With anything, there are good and not so good parts. To completely denounce an entire religion for specific properties, completely discounts the fact that they also have components of what you value.
I purposefully avoided using 'spirituality' or alluding to it in my post because I consider them completely separate things. I think that this might be something you battle with, in that you consider Abrahamic religions to be only religion, and Atheism to be strictly spiritual. In one aspect, Atheism in itself is a religion - it's a community of individuals guided by a set of principals and beliefs (beliefs are not strictly defined through religion). You can be both religious and practising atheism and not have any spirituality. Spirituality is something individual and within someone. I think you consider spirituality and atheism to be synonymous, which they aren't. In being critical, which I feel bad about, I think this is where your argument is weak. What I was alluding to is that the idea of saving humanity may come from spirituality, but that does not mean that it solely exists within atheism - it can exist within any faith or no faith.
This is 100% subjective and your opinion. Many people would say the exact opposite- that religion has empowered them and allowed them to gain control of their own life. Moreover, you refuse to make the distinction between religion as a practice/belief, and religion as an institution.
I do believe that throughout history religion as an institution has sought to control and disempower people...but that is completely different than the practice of religion, and individual worship which has, as I said above, lead to the empowerment of many individuals.
I believe this is a very narrow opinion of religion. Religion has many social, personal, and health benefits. There's a range of literature out there that demonstrates the benefits of religious centres in communities and within an individual's life. However, again, I want to stress that this is often looking at the 'practice' of religion and the community practitioners, rather than the overall institutional body.
This again is your opinion. There is much evidence out there that many people are empowered. While there is disempowerment through religion, it's not completely and fully negative.
Many religions, even the ones that you support, such as paganism, support the idea of a greater power(s) that aid in the development of humanity and should be 'worshipped'. The Christian God is one definition, but there is many other aspects - that are similar or more abstract- that represent the idea of a 'greater power' other than humanity. In fact, in some aspects, you allude to the power of nature and life, which, in itself, is an entity.
Abrahamic traditions might have individuals within specific sects that believe this entity is there to punish or 'subjugate' humanity, but this is just one portion of that faith....
Unfortunately, I think the same narrowminded issues that you believe Abrahamic traditions have, is a bit what you have in regards to your own spirituality. I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but I know how passionate and fierce you are with this belief, and I see the full value in it. But as you also know, I am a firm believer that value in your own opinion comes from valuing opposing opinions.
Why does faith matter if we all, on a spiritual and human level, strive for a similar goal to save humanity?
I know what changing the world will take. People have no idea who or what we are. We are lost thanks to religion and religion is taking advantage of that fact for all it's worth! Inform humanity of it's true identity and all of a sudden the way we are living will become wholly unacceptable. The people have the power! They don't affect their will because they are taught they are meant to be someone's little bitch who is supposed to live in misery and hardship. They are taught to privately appeal to phanstasm for their woes. Well, fuck all that. Atheist Spirituality shall teach them of their great capacity and the subjugation is a trait of the dark ages that has no place in this era. Change the world view, change the wolrd. That causality is FACT!
[MENTION=10252]say what[/MENTION], I believe you continue to confuse religion with spirituality. If you think there is ANY merit to Abrahamic religion lets address those merits one at a time. I will clearly demonstrate you value spirituality, not religion.
That is a fact I can defend. Please review the bottom half of the initial post. You will get nowhere confusing spirituality with religion.
Spirituality is something man creates because he is afraid to face the fact that he is alone and will just die. It's a comfort system. That's all. I am done with this religion spirituality shit. You can be a good person. You can choose to be kind. And the people who do not believe are treated like they are crazy. They are made to be outcasts. Based of beliefs that are totally un provable except for in the confines of their minds. They are crazy and expect you to join them. I won't. I see more harm than good from these large groups. And if they think that they can impose their will on the rest of us well they got another thing coming....