Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World: | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World:

Science Saved My Soul...

There is a lot of cross over between this video and the conversation here. He comes close to articulating atheist spirituality there for a moment!

[video=youtube;r6w2M50_Xdk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk[/video]
 
what is the foundation of your value system???
Spirituality is about giving context and meaning to existence. The above describes the most basic relationship you have with the universe but that's just the beginning of the story. Your relationship to the universe is much deeper than that. Consider our origin: billions of years ago life started on this planet. (Not humans, life! Humanity was there at the very beginning, but so was everything else. There is only one genetic heritage on this planet. Every frog, fish, tree and plankton on this planet is your kin.) Billions of years later, some 600 million years ago, life on this planet achieved multicellularism. I'd like to say that humans arose about 200 thousand years ago but the truth is we've been here the whole time. That line we've drawn 200k years ago is a reflection of our definitions. In time, another line will be drawn to separate you and I from our progeny. What becomes of us will eventually consider themselves to be far too sophisticated to be considered part of our species; they would be right. If you look back onto our distant ancestry and point fingers at the lesser beings they were then you must look forward knowing you too are a pathetically lesser being; you must know with confidence your own progeny will look upon you in the same manner and have the exact justifications you do! And you will both be wrong! Humanity isn't this form we recognize today. Humanity encompasses more than humans. It's our genetic linage. Humanity scurried away from dinosaurs ages ago and will travel among the stars as the future unfolds. We are merely a part of an unfolding process. Being part of that process is meaningful to spirituality. Can you imagine what our lineage went through to get us here? Can you imagine where we can go from here? The universe will become our playground and I'm part of that. I'm part of the Cambrian Explosion as well. Our lineage is among the coolest things in the universe; it didn't exactly start with you and it won't end here.


Please completely ignore any and all religious/deistic/metaphysical connotations this statement may carry because I'm finding it hard to come up with a more appropriate description: the existence of life on this planet is nothing short of a miracle. Life itself is the most intrinsically valuable form matter can take -we have yet to find anything that remotely compares and getting there is not easily done.. For most of Earth's history, life existed as single celled organisms. A billion years ago, Earth didn't have cool things like bugs and ferns. There were no little critters scurrying around. The complexity of all life found here didn't extend into mulitcellularism in that period. It would take another 400 million years before life here made the leap into multicellularism and that step is not compulsory. It's not hard to imagine multicellularism being just as challenging to achieve as the advent life itself. The fact we've achieved both on this planet makes makes this world one of the most noteworthy locations in the entire universe. Multicellualrism quickly led to profound diversification. This Cambrian Explosion laid the foundations for all sorts of intriguing specimens. Five hundred million years later, we had bugs and ferns and all sorts of critters scurrying about. That history alone endears this planet to me. From life's modest beginnings, this world's family diversified into forms and survival strategies that we may never fully comprehend. I think part of the issue with fully comprehending any species is we must understand their context, how they fit into the ecosystem. Fully understanding any ecosystem it not easily done. However, we can be certain that every species developed partially as a response to interaction with other species.


A wise man recently shared a bit of wisdom from The Bible with me: "As Iron sharpens Iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17 That phenomenon is not limited to iron and men. That aptly applies to species interaction throughout Earth's biologic history. Around 200,000 years ago, modern humans arose. Modern humans, behaviorally, as it's described, were on the scene closer to 50 thousand years ago. We got here partially through genetic directives and survival strategies but all that ultimately points to our interaction with other species. We didn't just happen, we were made -by our kin. On some level, we owe our expression of existence to virtually every other species on this planet.


Now let's talk about spirituality. With a few simple observations we can gain a lot of perspective on where we came from. Subsequently, we can give a lot of context to our identity. Who are you? You're part of a profoundly wonderful and complex legacy that has existed for ages. Your brethren crafted you to be one of the finest specimens in existence today. And we have been there to contribute to making other species develop their potential as well. It is a web of beauty. One of the most beautiful parts of that story is sentience. Sentience is probably inevitable once multicellularism occurs, given enough time and opportunity for diversity. Life has a tendency to build upon existing complexity, data processing is only gonna get better. So, we probably shouldn't be too impressed with dolphins or ourselves, many of the other animals may not be far behind us. Well, ok, we do have a lot of cause to be pleased with ourselves. After all, we are sentient; and dolphins don't seem to be in a position to develop technology. We are the most gifted species known to exist. We didn't make ourselves so cool, everything else did. My spirituality is deeply engaged with that fact. Like, wow; thank you world! Thank you, Earth. A deep and very special thanks is reserved for all other species, my family... I'm eternally grateful


Religion got something right about spirituality, it does embody itself everywhere. Everything you experience is an expression of humanity, an expression of more distant relatives, or an expression of the universe in which we all live. Everything has spiritual relevance. For me, a backpacking trip is going home; it is heading back into the environment from whence I came. A concert touches my being deeper than merely rock'n out. Look at what we do there! That is human exuberance at some of it's finest. Music is the heart and soul of our species:


“All that mankind has done, thought, gained, or been; it is lying as in magic preservation in the pages of books.” -Thomas Carlyle


That applies equally to music. The essence of our being is expressed in its variety. I'm almost willing to build an argument that it is pure spirituality.


-the endeavor to understand and identify one's self with their origin and relation to the universe. If you want to know who you are, just look around.


@LucyJr, Embedded within that is a whole lot of the basis of my spirituality. Also, embedded in there are values about the unity of our species and the kinship of all species. In comparison to the bible, which teaches group separation and dominance, I would call this better. And "dominion" over the lesser beings... I dare say atheism provides more wholesome values.

At its core, atheist spirituality teaches how wonderful we are. It teaches love for the universe. It teaches us love for another. It teaches love for all species.

Embedded in its teachings is a concept called divinity. It's nothing phantasmic. It could be translated into beauty, awe provoking, wondrous and the like. Everything in the universe displays beauty. Everything holds a measure of divinity. We've already established life is the most intrinsically valuable entity in existence. -it's concentration of divinity, rather impressive. Well, you do not stomp out other forms of divinity! For as gifted as we are, we have made everything else severely pay. That is about as reprehensible as you can get for such a profoundly gifted species. What we're doing to the world and each other goes against every principal atheist spirituality has. Humanity has been misled to such an extent we are scarcely worthy of the gifts we have. But we are young and still finding our way. We have great potential and no expression of spirituality can direct us toward it better than atheism.
 
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This is extremely well put! And is what I believe. We lose sight of the principals of religion vs. the institution of religion (which is governed my humans that might not actually be upholding the principals).
Valid point. Even so, I have to question how much we can separate an entity and it's character.

Plus, if we stripped the institution of religion from the scene we would essentially be left with a world view and spirituality. That's what atheism offers, with the added bonus of more empowering world view.
 
Spirituality is about giving context and meaning to existence. The above describes the most basic relationship you have with the universe but that's just the beginning of the story. Your relationship to the universe is much deeper than that. Consider our origin: billions of years ago life started on this planet. (Not humans, life! Humanity was there at the very beginning, but so was everything else. There is only one genetic heritage on this planet. Every frog, fish, tree and plankton on this planet is your kin.) Billions of years later, some 600 million years ago, life on this planet achieved multicellularism. I'd like to say that humans arose about 200 thousand years ago but the truth is we've been here the whole time. That line we've drawn 200k years ago is a reflection of our definitions. In time, another line will be drawn to separate you and I from our progeny. What becomes of us will eventually consider themselves to be far too sophisticated to be considered part of our species; they would be right. If you look back onto our distant ancestry and point fingers at the lesser beings they were then you must look forward knowing you too are a pathetically lesser being; you must know with confidence your own progeny will look upon you in the same manner and have the exact justifications you do! And you will both be wrong! Humanity isn't this form we recognize today. Humanity encompasses more than humans. It's our genetic linage. Humanity scurried away from dinosaurs ages ago and will travel among the stars as the future unfolds. We are merely a part of an unfolding process. Being part of that process is meaningful to spirituality. Can you imagine what our lineage went through to get us here? Can you imagine where we can go from here? The universe will become our playground and I'm part of that. I'm part of the Cambrian Explosion as well. Our lineage is among the coolest things in the universe; it didn't exactly start with you and it won't end here.


Please completely ignore any and all religious/deistic/metaphysical connotations this statement may carry because I'm finding it hard to come up with a more appropriate description: the existence of life on this planet is nothing short of a miracle. Life itself is the most intrinsically valuable form matter can take -we have yet to find anything that remotely compares and getting there is not easily done.. For most of Earth's history, life existed as single celled organisms. A billion years ago, Earth didn't have cool things like bugs and ferns. There were no little critters scurrying around. The complexity of all life found here didn't extend into mulitcellularism in that period. It would take another 400 million years before life here made the leap into multicellularism and that step is not compulsory. It's not hard to imagine multicellularism being just as challenging to achieve as the advent life itself. The fact we've achieved both on this planet makes makes this world one of the most noteworthy locations in the entire universe. Multicellualrism quickly led to profound diversification. This Cambrian Explosion laid the foundations for all sorts of intriguing specimens. Five hundred million years later, we had bugs and ferns and all sorts of critters scurrying about. That history alone endears this planet to me. From life's modest beginnings, this world's family diversified into forms and survival strategies that we may never fully comprehend. I think part of the issue with fully comprehending any species is we must understand their context, how they fit into the ecosystem. Fully understanding any ecosystem it not easily done. However, we can be certain that every species developed partially as a response to interaction with other species.


A wise man recently shared a bit of wisdom from The Bible with me: "As Iron sharpens Iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17 That phenomenon is not limited to iron and men. That aptly applies to species interaction throughout Earth's biologic history. Around 200,000 years ago, modern humans arose. Modern humans, behaviorally, as it's described, were on the scene closer to 50 thousand years ago. We got here partially through genetic directives and survival strategies but all that ultimately points to our interaction with other species. We didn't just happen, we were made -by our kin. On some level, we owe our expression of existence to virtually every other species on this planet.


Now let's talk about spirituality. With a few simple observations we can gain a lot of perspective on where we came from. Subsequently, we can give a lot of context to our identity. Who are you? You're part of a profoundly wonderful and complex legacy that has existed for ages. Your brethren crafted you to be one of the finest specimens in existence today. And we have been there to contribute to making other species develop their potential as well. It is a web of beauty. One of the most beautiful parts of that story is sentience. Sentience is probably inevitable once multicellularism occurs, given enough time and opportunity for diversity. Life has a tendency to build upon existing complexity, data processing is only gonna get better. So, we probably shouldn't be too impressed with dolphins or ourselves, many of the other animals may not be far behind us. Well, ok, we do have a lot of cause to be pleased with ourselves. After all, we are sentient; and dolphins don't seem to be in a position to develop technology. We are the most gifted species known to exist. We didn't make ourselves so cool, everything else did. My spirituality is deeply engaged with that fact. Like, wow; thank you world! Thank you, Earth. A deep and very special thanks is reserved for all other species, my family... I'm eternally grateful


Religion got something right about spirituality, it does embody itself everywhere. Everything you experience is an expression of humanity, an expression of more distant relatives, or an expression of the universe in which we all live. Everything has spiritual relevance. For me, a backpacking trip is going home; it is heading back into the environment from whence I came. A concert touches my being deeper than merely rock'n out. Look at what we do there! That is human exuberance at some of it's finest. Music is the heart and soul of our species:


“All that mankind has done, thought, gained, or been; it is lying as in magic preservation in the pages of books.” -Thomas Carlyle


That applies equally to music. The essence of our being is expressed in its variety. I'm almost willing to build an argument that it is pure spirituality.


-the endeavor to understand and identify one's self with their origin and relation to the universe. If you want to know who you are, just look around.


@LucyJr, Embedded within that is a whole lot of the basis of my spirituality. Also, embedded in there are values about the unity of our species and the kinship of all species. In comparison to the bible, which teaches group separation and dominance, I would call this better. And "dominion" over the lesser beings... I dare say atheism provides more wholesome values.

At its core, atheist spirituality teaches how wonderful we are. It teaches love for the universe. It teaches us love for another. It teaches love for all species.

Embedded in its teachings is a concept called divinity. It's nothing phantasmic. It could be translated into beauty, awe provoking, wondrous and the like. Everything in the universe displays beauty. Everything holds a measure of divinity. We've already established life is the most intrinsically valuable entity in existence. -it's concentration of divinity, rather impressive. Well, you do not stomp out other forms of divinity! For as gifted as we are, we have made everything else severely pay. That is about as reprehensible as you can get for such a profoundly gifted species. What we're doing to the world and each other goes against every principal atheist spirituality has. Humanity has been misled to such an extent we are scarcely worthy of the gifts we have. But we are young and still finding our way. We have great potential and no expression of spirituality can direct us toward it better than atheism.

Thank you for the comprehensive answer, sire :D

On one side, I agree with what you said. There are things in the Universe and beauties that take our breath away. We see value in beauty, in life, in values, in morality, in spirituality. So from this I realise you are not a pessimistic atheist, which is good.

On the other side, I strongly disagree with you and all what you said.
Atheism, as is classically udesrstood, is nihilistic. In other words, if you are a atheist, the only kind you can be whithout logically contradicting yourself is taking the stance of nihilism, pessimistic nihilism. Please note that I don't persuade you in becoming a nihilist, I just try to show you what atheism should be, in order so you can see the logical inconsistencies in your philosophy.

I will quote a christian writter, William Lane Craig on this:


The Absurdity of Life without God

William Lane Craig

Why on atheism life has no ultimate meaning, value, or purpose, and why this view is unlivable.

The Necessity of God and Immortality

Man, writes Loren Eiseley, is the Cosmic Orphan. He is the only creature in the universe who asks, "Why?" Other animals have instincts to guide them, but man has leamed to ask questions. "Who am I?" man asks. "Why am I here? Where am I going?" Since the Enlightenment, when he threw off the shackles of religion, man has tried to answer these questions without reference to God. But the answers that came back were not exhilarating, but dark and terrible. "You are the accidental by-product of nature, a result of matter plus time plus chance. There is no reason for your existence. All you face is death."

Modern man thought that when he had gotten rid of God, he had freed himself from all that repressed and stifled him. Instead, he discovered that in killing God, he had also killed himself. For if there is no God, then man's life becomes absurd.

If God does not exist, then both man and the universe are inevitably doomed to death. Man, like all biological organisms, must die. With no hope of immortality, man's life leads only to the grave. His life is but a spark in the infinite blackness, a spark that appears, flickers, and dies forever. Therefore, everyone must come face to face with what theologian Paul Tillich has called "the threat of non-being." For though I know now that I exist, that I am alive, I also know that someday I will no longer exist, that I will no longer be, that I will die. This thought is staggering and threatening: to think that the person I call "myself" will cease to exist, that I will be no more!

I remember vividly the first time my father told me that someday I would die. Somehow as a child the thought had just never occurred to me. When he told me, I was filled with fear and unbearable sadness. And though he tried repeatedly to reassure me that this was a long way off, that did not seem to matter. Whether sooner or later, the undeniable fact was that I would die and be no more, and the thought overwhelmed me. Eventually, like all of us, I grew to simply accept the fact. We all learn to live with the inevitable. But the child's insight remains true. As the French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre observed, several hours or several years make no difference once you have lost eternity.

Whether it comes sooner or later, the prospect of death and the threat of non-being is a terrible horror. But I met a student once who did not feel this threat. He said he had been raised on the farm and was used to seeing the animals being born and dying. Death was for him simply natural–a part of life, so to speak. I was puzzled by how different our two perspectives on death were and found it difficult to understand why he did not feel the threat of non-being. Years later, I think I found my answer in reading Sartre. Sartre observed that death is not threatening so long as we view it as the death of the other, from a third-person standpoint, so to speak. It is only when we internalize it and look at it from the first-person perspective–"my death: I am going to die"–that the threat of non-being becomes real. As Sartre points out, many people never assume this first-person perspective in the midst of life; one can even look at one's own death from the third-person standpoint, as if it were the death of another or even of an animal, as did my friend. But the true existential significance of my death can only be appreciated from the first-person perspective, as I realize that I am going to die and forever cease to exist. My life is just a momentary transition out of oblivion into oblivion.

And the universe, too, faces death. Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat; there will be no life; only the corpses of dead stars and galaxies, ever expanding into the endless darkness and the cold recesses of space–a universe in ruins. So not only is the life of each individual person doomed; the entire human race is doomed. There is no escape. There is no hope.

The Absurdity of Life without God and Immortality

If there is no God, then man and the universe are doomed. Like prisoners condemned to death, we await our unavoidable execution. There is no God, and there is no immortality. And what is the consequence of this? It means that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. Let's look at each of these.

No Ultimate Meaning without Immortality and God

If each individual person passes out of existence when he dies, then what ultimate meaning can be given to his life? Does it really matter whether he ever existed at all? His life may be important relative to certain other events, but what is the ultimate significance of any of those events? If all the events are meaningless, then what can be the ultimate meaning of influencing any of them? Ultimately it makes no difference.

Look at it from another perspective: Scientists say that the universe originated in an explosion called the "Big Bang" about 13 billion years ago. Suppose the Big Bang had never occurred. Suppose the universe had never existed. What ultimate difference would it make? The universe is doomed to die anyway. In the end it makes no difference whether the universe ever existed or not. Therefore, it is without ultimate significance.

The same is true of the human race. Mankind is a doomed race in a dying universe. Because the human race will eventually cease to exist, it makes no ultimate difference whether it ever did exist. Mankind is thus no more significant than a swarm of mosquitos or a barnyard of pigs, for their end is all the same. The same blind cosmic process that coughed them up in the first place will eventually swallow them all again.

And the same is true of each individual person. The contributions of the scientist to the advance of human knowledge, the researches of the doctor to alleviate pain and suffering, the efforts of the diplomat to secure peace in the world, the sacrifices of good men everywhere to better the lot of the human race--all these come to nothing. This is the horror of modern man: because he ends in nothing, he is nothing.

But it is important to see that it is not just immortality that man needs if life is to be meaningful. Mere duration of existence does not make that existence meaningful. If man and the universe could exist forever, but if there were no God, their existence would still have no ultimate significance. To illustrate: I once read a science-fiction story in which an astronaut was marooned on a barren chunk of rock lost in outer space. He had with him two vials: one containing poison and the other a potion that would make him live forever. Realizing his predicament, he gulped down the poison. But then to his horror, he discovered he had swallowed the wrong vial–he had drunk the potion for immortality. And that meant that he was cursed to exist forever–a meaningless, unending life. Now if God does not exist, our lives are just like that. They could go on and on and still be utterly without meaning. We could still ask of life, "So what?" So it is not just immortality man needs if life is to be ultimately significant; he needs God and immortality. And if God does not exist, then he has neither.

Twentieth-century man came to understand this. Read Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett. During this entire play two men carry on trivial conversation while waiting for a third man to arrive, who never does. Our lives are like that, Beckett is saying; we just kill time waiting–for what, we don't know. In a tragic portrayal of man, Beckett wrote another play in which the curtain opens revealing a stage littered with junk. For thirty long seconds, the audience sits and stares in silence at that junk. Then the curtain closes. That's all.

French existentialists Jean-Paul Sartre and Albert Camus understood this, too. Sartre portrayed life in his play No Exit as hell–the final line of the play are the words of resignation, "Well, let's get on with it." Hence, Sartre writes elsewhere of the "nausea" of existence. Camus, too, saw life as absurd. At the end of his brief novel The Stranger, Camus's hero discovers in a flash of insight that the universe has no meaning and there is no God to give it one.

Thus, if there is no God, then life itself becomes meaningless. Man and the universe are without ultimate significance.

No Ultimate Value Without Immortality and God

If life ends at the grave, then it makes no difference whether one has lived as a Stalin or as a saint. Since one's destiny is ultimately unrelated to one's behavior, you may as well just live as you please. As Dostoyevsky put it: "If there is no immortality then all things are permitted." On this basis, a writer like Ayn Rand is absolutely correct to praise the virtues of selfishness. Live totally for self; no one holds you accountable! Indeed, it would be foolish to do anything else, for life is too short to jeopardize it by acting out of anything but pure self-interest. Sacrifice for another person would be stupid. Kai Nielsen, an atheist philosopher who attempts to defend the viability of ethics without God, in the end admits,

We have not been able to show that reason requires the moral point of view, or that all really rational persons, unhoodwinked by myth or ideology, need not be individual egoists or classical amoralists. Reason doesn't decide here. The picture I have painted for you is not a pleasant one. Reflection on it depresses me . . . . Pure practical reason, even with a good knowledge of the facts, will not take you to morality.1

But the problem becomes even worse. For, regardless of immortality, if there is no God, then there can be no objective standards of right and wrong. All we are confronted with is, in Jean-Paul Sartre's words, the bare, valueless fact of existence. Moral values are either just expressions of personal taste or the by-products of socio-biological evolution and conditioning. In a world without God, who is to say which values are right and which are wrong? Who is to judge that the values of Adolf Hitler are inferior to those of a saint? The concept of morality loses all meaning in a universe without God. As one contemporary atheistic ethicist points out, "to say that something is wrong because . . . it is forbidden by God, is . . . perfectly understandable to anyone who believes in a law-giving God. But to say that something is wrong . . . even though no God exists to forbid it, is not understandable. . . ." "The concept of moral obligation [is] unintelligible apart from the idea of God. The words remain but their meaning is gone."2 In a world without God, there can be no objective right and wrong, only our culturally and personally relative, subjective judgments. This means that it is impossible to condemn war, oppression, or crime as evil. Nor can one praise brotherhood, equality, and love as good. For in a universe without God, good and evil do not exist–there is only the bare valueless fact of existence, and there is no one to say you are right and I am wrong.

No Ultimate Purpose Without Immortality and God

If death stands with open arms at the end of life's trail, then what is the goal of life? Is it all for nothing? Is there no reason for life? And what of the universe? Is it utterly pointless? If its destiny is a cold grave in the recesses of outer space the answer must be, yes–it is pointless. There is no goal no purpose for the universe. The litter of a dead universe will just go on expanding and expanding–forever.

And what of man? Is there no purpose at all for the human race? Or will it simply peter out someday lost in the oblivion of an indifferent universe? The English writer H. G. Wells foresaw such a prospect. In his novel The Time Machine Wells's time traveler journeys far into the future to discover the destiny of man. All he finds is a dead earth, save for a few lichens and moss, orbiting a gigantic red sun. The only sounds are the rush of the wind and the gentle ripple of the sea. "Beyond these lifeless sounds," writes Wells, "the world was silent. Silent? It would be hard to convey the stillness of it. All the sounds of man, the bleating of sheep, the cries of birds, the hum of insects, the stir that makes the background of our lives–all that was over."3 And so Wells's time traveler returned. But to what?–to merely an earlier point on the purposeless rush toward oblivion. When as a non-Christian I first read Wells's book, I thought, "No, no! It can't end that way!" But if there is no God, it will end that way, like it or not. This is reality in a universe without God: there is no hope; there is no purpose.

What is true of mankind as a whole is true of each of us individually: we are here to no purpose. If there is no God, then our life is not qualitatively different from that of a dog. As the ancient writer of Ecclesiastes put it: "The fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All come from the dust and all return to the dust" (Eccles 3:19-20). In this book, which reads more like a piece of modern existentialist literature than a book of the Bible, the writer shows the futility of pleasure, wealth, education, political fame, and honor in a life doomed to end in death. His verdict? "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity" (1:2). If life ends at the grave, then we have no ultimate purpose for living.

But more than that: even if it did not end in death, without God life would still be without purpose. For man and the universe would then be simple accidents of chance, thrust into existence for no reason. Without God the universe is the result of a cosmic accident, a chance explosion. There is no reason for which it exists. As for man, he is a freak of nature– a blind product of matter plus time plus chance. Man is just a lump of slime that evolved rationality. As one philosopher has put it: "Human life is mounted upon a subhuman pedestal and must shift for itself alone in the heart of a silent and mindless universe.''4

What is true of the universe and of the human race is also true of us as individuals. If God does not exist, then you are just a miscarriage of nature, thrust into a purposeless universe to live a purposeless life.

So if God does not exist, that means that man and the universe exist to no purpose–since the end of everything is death–and that they came to be for no purpose, since they are only blind products of chance. In short, life is utterly without reason.

Do you understand the gravity of the alternatives before us? For if God exists, then there is hope for man. But if God does not exist, then all we are left with is despair. Do you understand why the question of God's existence is so vital to man? As one writer has aptly put it, "If God is dead, then man is dead, too."

Unfortunately, the mass of mankind do not realize this fact. They continue on as though nothing has changed. I'm reminded of Nietzsche's story of the madman who in the early morning hours burst into the marketplace, lantern in hand, crying, "I seek God! I seek God!" Since many of those standing about did not believe in God, he provoked much laughter. "Did God get lost?" they taunted him. "Or is he hiding? Or maybe he has gone on a voyage or emigrated!" Thus they yelled and laughed. Then, writes Nietzsche, the madman turned in their midst and pierced them with his eyes

'Whither is God?' he cried, 'I shall tell you. We have killed him–you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night and more night coming on all the while? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? . . . God is dead. . . . And we have killed him. How shall we, the murderers of all murderers, comfort ourselves?5

The crowd stared at the madman in silence and astonishment. At last he dashed his lantern to the ground. "I have come too early," he said. "This tremendous event is still on its way–it has not yet reached the ears of man." Men did not yet truly comprehend the consequences of what they had done in killing God. But Nietzsche predicted that someday people would realize the implications of their atheism; and this realization would usher in an age of nihilism–the destruction of all meaning and value in life.

Most people still do not reflect on the consequences of atheism and so, like the crowd in the marketplace, go unknowingly on their way. But when we realize, as did Nietzsche, what atheism implies, then his question presses hard upon us: how shall we, the murderers of all murderers, comfort ourselves?

The Practical Impossibility of Atheism

About the only solution the atheist can offer is that we face the absurdity of life and live bravely. Bertrand Russell, for example, wrote that we must build our lives upon "the firm foundation of unyielding despair."6 Only by recognizing that the world really is a terrible place can we successfully come to terms with life. Camus said that we should honestly recognize life's absurdity and then live in love for one another.

The fundamental problem with this solution, however, is that it is impossible to live consistently and happily within such a world view. If one lives consistently, he will not be happy; if one lives happily, it is only because he is not consistent. Francis Schaeffer has explained this point well. Modern man, says Schaeffer, resides in a two-story universe. In the lower story is the finite world without God; here life is absurd, as we have seen. In the upper story are meaning, value, and purpose. Now modern man lives in the lower story because he believes there is no God. But he cannot live happily in such an absurd world; therefore, he continually makes leaps of faith into the upper story to affirm meaning, value, and purpose, even though he has no right to, since he does not believe in God.

Let's look again, then, at each of the three areas in which we saw life was absurd without God, to show how man cannot live consistently and happily with his atheism.

Meaning of Life

First, the area of meaning. We saw that without God, life has no meaning. Yet philosophers continue to live as though life does have meaning. For example, Sartre argued that one may create meaning for his life by freely choosing to follow a certain course of action. Sartre himself chose Marxism.

Now this is utterly inconsistent. It is inconsistent to say life is objectively absurd and then to say one may create meaning for his life. If life is really absurd, then man is trapped in the lower story. To try to create meaning in life represents a leap to the upper story. But Sartre has no basis for this leap. Without God, there can be no objective meaning in life. Sartre's program is actually an exercise in self-delusion. Sartre is really saying, "Let's pretend the universe has meaning." And this is just fooling ourselves.

The point is this: if God does not exist, then life is objectively meaningless; but man cannot live consistently and happily knowing that life is meaningless; so in order to be happy he pretends life has meaning. But this is, of course, entirely inconsistent–for without God, man and the universe are without any real significance.

Value of Life

Turn now to the problem of value. Here is where the most blatant inconsistencies occur. First of all, atheistic humanists are totally inconsistent in affirming the traditional values of love and brotherhood. Camus has been rightly criticized for inconsistently holding both to the absurdity of life and the ethics of human love and brotherhood. The two are logically incompatible. Bertrand Russell, too, was inconsistent. For though he was an atheist, he was an outspoken social critic, denouncing war and restrictions on sexual freedom. Russell admitted that he could not live as though ethical values were simply a matter of personal taste, and that he therefore found his own views "incredible." "I do not know the solution," he confessed."7 The point is that if there is no God, then objective right and wrong cannot exist. As Dostoyevsky said, "All things are permitted."

But Dostoyevsky also showed that man cannot live this way. He cannot live as though it is perfectly all right for soldiers to slaughter innocent children. He cannot live as though it is all right for dictators like Pol Pot to exterminate millions of their own countrymen. Everything in him cries out to say these acts are wrong–really wrong. But if there is no God, he cannot. So he makes a leap of faith and affirms values anyway. And when he does so, he reveals the inadequacy of a world without God.

The horror of a world devoid of value was brought home to me with new intensity a few years ago as I viewed a BBC television documentary called "The Gathering." It concerned the reunion of survivors of the Holocaust in Jerusalem, where they rediscovered lost friendships and shared their experiences. One woman prisoner, a nurse, told of how she was made the gynecologist at Auschwitz. She observed that pregnant women were grouped together by the soldiers under the direction of Dr. Mengele and housed in the same barracks. Some time passed, and she noted that she no longer saw any of these women. She made inquiries. "Where are the pregnant women who were housed in that barracks?" "Haven't you heard?" came the reply. "Dr. Mengele used them for vivisection."

Another woman told of how Mengele had bound up her breasts so that she could not suckle her infant. The doctor wanted to learn how long an infant could survive without nourishment. Desperately this poor woman tried to keep her baby alive by giving it pieces of bread soaked in coffee, but to no avail. Each day the baby lost weight, a fact that was eagerly monitored by Dr. Mengele. A nurse then came secretly to this woman and told her, "I have arranged a way for you to get out of here, but you cannot take your baby with you. I have brought a morphine injection that you can give to your child to end its life." When the woman protested, the nurse was insistent: "Look, your baby is going to die anyway. At least save yourself." And so this mother took the life of her own baby. Dr. Mengele was furious when he learned of it because he had lost his experimental specimen, and he searched among the dead to find the baby's discarded corpse so that he could have one last weighing.

My heart was torn by these stories. One rabbi who survived the camp summed it up well when he said that at Auschwitz it was as though there existed a world in which all the Ten Commandments were reversed. Mankind had never seen such a hell.

And yet, if God does not exist, then in a sense, our world is Auschwitz: there is no absolute right and wrong; all things are permitted. But no atheist, no agnostic, can live consistently with such a view. Nietzsche himself, who proclaimed the necessity of living beyond good and evil, broke with his mentor Richard Wagner precisely over the issue of the composer's anti-Semitism and strident German nationalism. Similarly Sartre, writing in the aftermath of the Second World War, condemned anti-Semitism, declaring that a doctrine that leads to extermination is not merely an opinion or matter of personal taste, of equal value with its opposite.8 In his important essay "Existentialism Is a Humanism," Sartre struggles vainly to elude the contradiction between his denial of divinely pre-established values and his urgent desire to affirm the value of human persons. Like Russell, he could not live with the implications of his own denial of ethical absolutes.

A second problem is that if God does not exist and there is no immortality, then all the evil acts of men go unpunished and all the sacrifices of good men go unrewarded. But who can live with such a view? Richard Wurmbrand, who has been tortured for his faith in communist prisons, says,

The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man. The communist torturers often said, 'There is no God, no Hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish.' I have heard one torturer even say, 'I thank God, in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart.' He expressed it in unbelievable brutality and torture inflicted on prisoners.9

And the same applies to acts of self-sacrifice. A number of years ago, a terrible mid-winter air disaster occurred in which a plane leaving the Washington, D.C., airport smashed into a bridge spanning the Potomac River, plunging its passengers into the icy waters. As the rescue helicopters came, attention was focused on one man who again and again pushed the dangling rope ladder to other passengers rather than be pulled to safety himself. Six times he passed the ladder by. When they came again, he was gone. He had freely given his life that others might live. The whole nation turned its eyes to this man in respect and admiration for the selfless and good act he had performed. And yet, if the atheist is right, that man was not noble–he did the stupidest thing possible. He should have gone for the ladder first, pushed others away if necessary in order to survive. But to die for others he did not even know, to give up all the brief existence he would ever have–what for? For the atheist there can be no reason. And yet the atheist, like the rest of us, instinctively reacts with praise for this man's selfless action. Indeed, one will probably never find an atheist who lives consistently with his system. For a universe without moral accountability and devoid of value is unimaginably terrible.

Purpose of Life

Finally, let's look at the problem of purpose in life. The only way most people who deny purpose in life live happily is either by making up some purpose, which amounts to self-delusion as we saw with Sartre, or by not carrying their view to its logical conclusions. Take the problem of death, for example. According to Ernst Bloch, the only way modern man lives in the face of death is by subconsciously borrowing the belief in immortality that his forefathers held to, even though he himself has no basis for this belief, since he does not believe in God. By borrowing the remnants of a belief in immortality, writes Bloch, "modern man does not feel the chasm that unceasingly surrounds him and that will certainly engulf him at last. Through these remnants, he saves his sense of self-identity. Through them the impression arises that man is not perishing, but only that one day the world has the whim no longer to appear to him." Bloch concludes, "This quite shallow courage feasts on a borrowed credit card. It lives from earlier hopes and the support that they once had provided."10 Modern man no longer has any right to that support, since he rejects God. But in order to live purposefully, he makes a leap of faith to affirm a reason for living.

We often find the same inconsistency among those who say that man and the universe came to exist for no reason or purpose, but just by chance. Unable to live in an impersonal universe in which everything is the product of blind chance, these persons begin to ascribe personality and motives to the physical processes themselves. It is a bizarre way of speaking and represents a leap from the lower to the upper story. For example, Francis Crick halfway through his book The Origin of the Genetic Code begins to spell nature with a capital "N" and elsewhere speaks of natural selection as being "clever" and as "thinking" of what it will do. Fred Hoyle, the English astronomer, attributes to the universe itself the qualities of God. For Carl Sagan the "Cosmos," which he always spells with a capital letter, obviously fills the role of a God-substitute. Though all these men profess not to believe in God, they smuggle in a God-substitute through the back door because they cannot bear to live in a universe in which everything is the chance result of impersonal forces.

And it's interesting to see many thinkers betray their views when they're pushed to their logical conclusions. For example, certain feminists have raised a storm of protest over Freudian sexual psychology because it is chauvinistic and degrading to women. And some psychologists have knuckled under and revised their theories. Now this is totally inconsistent. If Freudian psychology is really true, then it doesn't matter if it's degrading to women. You can't change the truth because you don't like what it leads to. But people cannot live consistently and happily in a world where other persons are devalued. Yet if God does not exist, then nobody has any value. Only if God exists can a person consistently support women's rights. For if God does not exist, then natural selection dictates that the male of the species is the dominant and aggressive one. Women would no more have rights than a female goat or chicken have rights. In nature whatever is, is right. But who can live with such a view? Apparently not even Freudian psychologists, who betray their theories when pushed to their logical conclusions.

Or take the sociological behaviorism of a man like B. F. Skinner. This view leads to the sort of society envisioned in George Orwell's 1984, where the government controls and programs the thoughts of everybody. If Skinner's theories are right, then there can be no objection to treating people like the rats in Skinner's rat-box as they run through their mazes, coaxed on by food and electric shocks. According to Skinner, all our actions are determined anyway. And if God does not exist, then no moral objection can be raised against this kind of programming, for man is not qualitatively different from a rat, since both are just matter plus time plus chance. But again, who can live with such a dehumanizing view?

Or finally, take the biological determinism of a man like Francis Crick. The logical conclusion is that man is like any other laboratory specimen. The world was horrified when it learned that at camps like Dachau the Nazis had used prisoners for medical experiments on living humans. But why not? If God does not exist, there can be no objection to using people as human guinea pigs. The end of this view is population control in which the weak and unwanted are killed off to make room for the strong. But the only way we can consistently protest this view is if God exists. Only if God exists can there be purpose in life.

The dilemma of modern man is thus truly terrible. And insofar as he denies the existence of God and the objectivity of value and purpose, this dilemma remains unrelieved for "post-modern" man as well. Indeed, it is precisely the awareness that modernism issues inevitably in absurdity and despair that constitutes the anguish of post-modernism. In some respects, post-modernism just is the awareness of the bankruptcy of modernity. The atheistic world view is insufficient to maintain a happy and consistent life. Man cannot live consistently and happily as though life were ultimately without meaning, value, or purpose. If we try to live consistently within the atheistic world view, we shall find ourselves profoundly unhappy. If instead we manage to live happily, it is only by giving the lie to our world view.

Confronted with this dilemma, man flounders pathetically for some means of escape. In a remarkable address to the American Academy for the Advancement of Science in 1991, Dr. L. D. Rue, confronted with the predicament of modern man, boldly advocated that we deceive ourselves by means of some "Noble Lie" into thinking that we and the universe still have value.11 Claiming that "The lesson of the past two centuries is that intellectual and moral relativism is profoundly the case," Dr. Rue muses that the consequence of such a realization is that one's quest for personal wholeness (or self-fulillment) and the quest for social coherence become independent from one another. This is because on the view of relativism the search for self-fulfillment becomes radically privatized: each person chooses his own set of values and meaning. If we are to avoid "the madhouse option," where self-fulfillment is pursued regardless of social coherence, and "the totalitarian option," where social coherence is imposed at the expense of personal wholeness, then we have no choice but to embrace some Noble Lie that will inspire us to live beyond selfish interests and so achieve social coherence. A Noble Lie "is one that deceives us, tricks us, compels us beyond self-interest, beyond ego, beyond family, nation, [and] race." It is a lie, because it tells us that the universe is infused with value (which is a great fiction), because it makes a claim to universal truth (when there is none), and because it tells me not to live for self-interest (which is evidently false). "But without such lies, we cannot live."

This is the dreadful verdict pronounced over modern man. In order to survive, he must live in self-deception. But even the Noble Lie option is in the end unworkable. In order to be happy, one must believe in objective meaning, value, and purpose. But how can one believe in those Noble Lies while at the same time believing in atheism and relativism? The more convinced you are of the necessity of a Noble Lie, the less you are able to believe in it. Like a placebo, a Noble Lie works only on those who believe it is the truth. Once we have seen through the fiction, then the Lie has lost its power over us. Thus, ironically, the Noble Lie cannot solve the human predicament for anyone who has come to see that predicament.

The Noble Lie option therefore leads at best to a society in which an elitist group of illuminati deceive the masses for their own good by perpetuating the Noble Lie. But then why should those of us who are enlightened follow the masses in their deception? Why should we sacrifice self-interest for a fiction? If the great lesson of the past two centuries is moral and intellectual relativism, then why (if we could) pretend that we do not know this truth and live a lie instead? If one answers, "for the sake of social coherence," one may legitimately ask why I should sacrifice my self-interest for the sake of social coherence? The only answer the relativist can give is that social coherence is in my self-interest–but the problem with this answer is that self-interest and the interest of the herd do not always coincide. Besides, if (out of self-interest) I do care about social coherence, the totalitarian option is always open to me: forget the Noble Lie and maintain social coherence (as well as my self-fulfillment) at the expense of the personal wholeness of the masses. Rue would undoubtedly regard such an option as repugnant. But therein lies the rub. Rue's dilemma is that he obviously values deeply both social coherence and personal wholeness for their own sakes; in other words, they are objective values, which according to his philosophy do not exist. He has already leapt to the upper story. The Noble Lie option thus affirms what it denies and so refutes itself.

Conclusion

Now I want to make it clear that I have not yet shown biblical Christianity to be true. But what I have done is clearly spell out the alternatives. If God does not exist, then life is futile. If the God of the Bible does exist, then life is meaningful. Only the second of these two alternatives enables us to live happily and consistently. Therefore, it seems to me that even if the evidence for these two options were absolutely equal, a rational person ought to choose biblical Christianity. It seems to me positively irrational to prefer death, futility, and destruction to life, meaningfulness, and happiness. As Pascal said, we have nothing to lose and infinity to gain."
 
Hi there–

I have a few random thoughts that I thought I’d share on this thread. This venue seems to be a good place to work out some ideas that have been bouncing around my head for a while, so thanks for getting things in motion.

You asked me:

Then who are you? If I may ask? Not directed at yourself? Why not? Surely no one could ever tell you otherwise. I submit to you, it's the truth. And your being knows it to be so. =)

Of course, I conceptually agree with your response but it’s awkward for me to feel like I’m standing up and crying out, “I am awesome!” Don’t forget, this is an INFJ thread and I am an INFJ!

On the post quoting William Lane Craig. Big sigh. Craig is a retired professor of theology who is steeped in the conservative evangelical Christian viewpoint. (He’s just been named professor of philosophy at Houston Baptist University). He starts out his essay with the same tired old “straw man” arguments about atheism, moves on to weaving in conservative evangelical beliefs about God, and finally “crushes” his godless opponents by quoting famous atheists and philosophers out of context and condemning their viewpoints because they don’t match his. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Despite my weary sarcasm, I actually welcome this viewpoint to the table–provided those who hold it are willing to consider the possibility that they may not be entirely correct. That’s where the conversation usually ends because the conservative evangelical viewpoint usually assumes that their doctrine and dogma are “correct” and anything that falls outside of that is to be gloriously but lovingly burned at the stake.

I am bemused when my conservative evangelical friends (yes, I have them!) shake their heads when one of their own, conservative evangelical Rob Bell, has an epiphany that maybe “hell” is conceptual and not a real place. I watch with wonder as Bell slowly, painfully nudges his belief system one inch closer to “liberal theology” which has been around for over a hundred years. And that sets off a firestorm of conflict within the conservative evangelical community!

Unfortunately, these are the folks that are atheists’ usual targets. And they are more than happy to fire back. (Craig has “debated” Hitchens.) The media are more than happy to continue hyping the hackneyed battle between the “God Haters” and the “God Lovers” casting infinitely more heat than light for folks who would rather fight than think.

That’s one of the biggest problems with religion: many of its adherents don’t want to think; they want to believe. In all fairness, they haven’t been taught to think about “God Things” or encouraged to do so. There was a book out not too long ago called “The Shack.” It was all the rage within the conservative evangelical community. Aside from the mediocre writing, the book contained a few unintentional theological flaws that made conservative theologians cringe. One of them still defended the book by saying, “Hey, anytime you can get someone in the pews to think about theology for more than a minute, it’s a good thing.”

One of the biggest challenges for mainline seminary students is to spend three years studying modern historical-critical methods of understanding the Bible and, upon ordination, meeting their first congregation, which is a hundred years (or more) behind them theologically.

I toss these things into the hopper for two reasons. First, some of your comments seem to be directed at the conservative evangelical types in Christianity, who incredibly enough, do not represent the majority of Christians. (All religions have their conservative elements that don’t necessarily reflect the mainstream.) You don’t seem to me to be the kind of person who would set up a “straw man” of your own, even unintentionally.

Second, my viewpoints are more in line with current “liberal theology” which is typically much more receptive, and less threatened, by alternative ways of seeing the world. That’s probably why I can embrace my own theology and still respet and learn from an atheist’s viewpoint without feeling compelled to “bring you into the fold.”

That, and it’s an INFJ thing!
 
Thank you for the comprehensive answer, sire :D

On one side, I agree with what you said. There are things in the Universe and beauties that take our breath away. We see value in beauty, in life, in values, in morality, in spirituality. So from this I realise you are not a pessimistic atheist, which is good.

On the other side, I strongly disagree with you and all what you said.
Atheism, as is classically udesrstood, is nihilistic. In other words, if you are a atheist, the only kind you can be whithout logically contradicting yourself is taking the stance of nihilism, pessimistic nihilism. Please note that I don't persuade you in becoming a nihilist, I just try to show you what atheism should be, in order so you can see the logical inconsistencies in your philosophy.

I will quote a christian writter, William Lane Craig on this:


The Absurdity of Life without God

William Lane Craig

Hi LucyJr!

You are very welcome! Hooray for the weekend! I hope you have great one.

Atheism, as is classically understood, is seriously misunderstood. I believe you have this all wrong, I am here to show you what atheism should be. Well, more accurately, what atheism is. With all due respect, this propaganda is what religion wants atheism to be. It is fascinating, humorous, telling of desperation, and completely irrelevant.


as for you, William Lane Craig:
This is why I pay absolutely no attention to spiritual propaganda from an entity who never had a healthy relationship with spirituality in the first place.

The Necessity of God and Immortality


When I threw off the shackles of religion all the dark and terrible want along with it and gave me access to a spirituality that has already demonstrated itself to be more wholesome than any religious teachings.


Affinity for immortality is a psychological issue. Operating from a position that requires it as a function of your existence only goes to show how quick religion is to appeal to the human psyche, while denying the reality of your existence.


Having one life to live makes this existence precious. It would be nice if religion gave more people that impression.




The Absurdity of Life without God and Immortality


Following religion means you live without significance, value or purpose. You are taught to devalue this life, wait for the next one. You think your purpose exists elsewhere. You don't feel significance on this plane. You have no value on this plane, your only purpose is to die. My purpose is to live! Life this life to the fullest, invest all I have in it! My significance is greater than the religious because this world is so much more significant than you think it is.


No Ultimate Meaning without Immortality and God


You dream up immortality because your fragile ego can't handle not being. You dream up a god because your fragile ego cannot handle being weaned into sentience without having your hand held. Meanings always arise from psyche, yours begs for maturity.




No Ultimate Value Without Immortality and God


I believe in concept of soul. The value of a person is not measured by the gifts they've been given, it's what they do with their gifts that counts. It's what you leave in your wake. If where you've been has been graced by your presence because you left nothing but beauty, wisdom, joy, intrigue and empowerment behind you, you have a beautiful soul(defined non-dualistically) and your value as a person is uncontested! Leave ignorance, fear, pain, misery, and feelings of inferiority behind you then are a piece of shit.


I touch the lives of many people every day. What they gain from me is largely wisdom, joy, intrigue and empowerment. My value is uncontested and will continue to impact the world after I'm gone.


What you mean to say is you have no value without god. I suspect that is very true.




No Ultimate Purpose Without Immortality and God


The universe is indifferent to our existence. It does not bestow us with purpose. That is something we'll have to generate for themselves. My purpose is to make the world a better place. -to reformat society into a worthy expression of humanity. I'm going to accomplish it in a few decades. Your god has been incapable of accomplishing the same feat since it supposedly made this world millennia ago. Your god is not as potent of a being as I am, apparently. And I have greater purpose.




The Practical Impossibility of Atheism


You should read my thread! It seems there's a lot of information you're not privy to.


Value of Life
Who are we? We are living beings. Of all the dull and mundane things we could have been, we are alive! We are the chemical equivalent of a chunk of ice and a few rocks. Yet, we are very different. Life is one of the most marvelous forms matter can take. Arranging chemicals in different ways will yield different properties. The properties of life are astounding. We truly are more than the sum of our parts. Matter comes in many different and wonderful forms: galaxies and stellar nurseries, nebula and planets... The list goes on an on. There is beauty, wonder and awe to be found everywhere in the universe. Still, life sets a new standard for intrinsic beauty and value. It is some of the coolest stuff in the universe. You! Yes, you are one of the most awesome and precious forms of matter that exist in the cosmos. The deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is not isolated from us, it is us!




Meaning of Life
See the above paragraph, that means you're the coolest thing in the universe.


Purpose of Life
you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again.




Conclusion
Now I want to make it clear that you have no idea what your talking about. You think that postulating bs like immortality means something. Like, I thought of it, so the universe obligated to make it so. There is nothing that points to immortality save your questionable Christian world view. Everything you try to extrapolate from your postulations is equally worthless. Don't pretend to address or represent the realities of the world/universe if you are incapable of utilizing its known properties in your argument.
 
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Straw man? I thought that was a piñata. Oops, my bad.


Hi there—
Of course, I conceptually agree with your response but it’s awkward for me to feel like I’m standing up and crying out, “I am awesome!” Don’t forget, this is an INFJ thread and I am an INFJ!
You are a noble creature. Still, there is nothing wrong with intimate relationship with your identity.


Despite my weary sarcasm, I actually welcome this viewpoint to the table—provided those who hold it are willing to consider the possibility that they may not be entirely correct. That’s where the conversation usually ends because the conservative evangelical viewpoint usually assumes that their doctrine and dogma are “correct” and anything that falls outside of that is to be gloriously but lovingly burned at the stake.
Indeed. If that straw man actually wants to speak and defend its position, that's spectacular! Let's see if there's any merit there, cuz I personally struggle with finding some. But if it has already said its peace, then it's better off where I left it.




That’s one of the biggest problems with religion: many of its adherents don’t want to think; they want to believe. In all fairness, they haven’t been taught to think about “God Things” or encouraged to do so. There was a book out not too long ago called “The Shack.” It was all the rage within the conservative evangelical community. Aside from the mediocre writing, the book contained a few unintentional theological flaws that made conservative theologians cringe. One of them still defended the book by saying, “Hey, anytime you can get someone in the pews to think about theology for more than a minute, it’s a good thing.”
It is known scientific fact that religious people do not use their logic and reason centers of the brain when arguing religion. They're not thinking about it, they're not reviewing validity. They retreat into less developed parts of the brain and defend their position at all costs, usually to the cost relevance to physical reality.


I think that's what distinguishes you from most. You follow a religious path but like I said earlier, above all else you're spiritual. You're more about discovery than defense. We can get somewhere in discussions like this.




One of the biggest challenges for mainline seminary students is to spend three years studying modern historical-critical methods of understanding the Bible and, upon ordination, meeting their first congregation, which is a hundred years (or more) behind them theologically.
That's interesting, what do you mean by that? Why so far behind?




I toss these things into the hopper for two reasons. First, some of your comments seem to be directed at the conservative evangelical types in Christianity, who incredibly enough, do not represent the majority of Christians. (All religions have their conservative elements that don’t necessarily reflect the mainstream.) You don’t seem to me to be the kind of person who would set up a “straw man” of your own, even unintentionally.
No, I'm not. There are valid points to be discussed within the more extreme religious views but I don't pretend all bear the same character. I was raised in a baptist environment on the west coast. It's pretty mellow compared to some Christian denominations. I have no interest in skewing the truth, I don't intend to let much hide from it either.


Second, my viewpoints are more in line with current “liberal theology” which is typically much more receptive, and less threatened, by alternative ways of seeing the world. That’s probably why I can embrace my own theology and still respect and learn from an atheist’s viewpoint without feeling compelled to “bring you into the fold.”


That, and it’s an INFJ thing!
Please tell me about them. -your viewpoints. And if you would be so kind, would you care to share notes on your wold view and what it tells you about your existence?

edit: that last question might seem like some kind of set up... Well, of course it is! =) I do have interest in looking at the nuances of your world views to compare them to atheist teachings. You seem to have a very healthy relationship with your spirituality... For one, I have personal interest in how all spiritual beings express their spirituality. Not as important to me, but more importantly for the discussion here, you make a good point about making many comments about some of the more extreme aspects of religion. I think comparing atheist spirituality to your expression of spirituality would be a fine way to gain reasonable insight into the character and merit of both views.
 
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[MENTION=10289]Rift Zone[/MENTION]
I will try to respond at your points, because I think you have missunderstood William Lane Craig. This is not a personal attack, we're just talking, right? :D
The Necessity of God and Immortality


When I threw off the shackles of religion all the dark and terrible want along with it and gave me access to a spirituality that has already demonstrated itself to be more wholesome than any religious teachings.


Affinity for immortality is a psychological issue. Operating from a position that requires it as a function of your existence only goes to show how quick religion is to appeal to the human psyche, while denying the reality of your existence.


Having one life to live makes this existence precious. It would be nice if religion gave more people that impression.
Why would life be more precious than death? Life was a mistake, an accident of evolutionary process, a blind phenomen. So why would life be more precious than anything, for example why is life more precious than a stone, or than death?

The word "precious" implies a value. Like I said earlier, this value in atheism can only be subjective. So if Hitler has other opinion than you, his opinion bear the same value as your opinion. t wons the opinion whi is sustained by more power.
The Absurdity of Life without God and Immortality


Following religion means you live without significance, value or purpose. You are taught to devalue this life, wait for the next one. You think your purpose exists elsewhere. You don't feel significance on this plane. You have no value on this plane, your only purpose is to die. My purpose is to live! Life this life to the fullest, invest all I have in it! My significance is greater than the religious because this world is so much more significant than you think it is.
Even if it would be that this life is to be lived for the next life, it would have a pupose, a significance and a value, which is to be prepared for the after-life. And if we are to live this life for the next life, it doesn't follow that this life has no value at all. I mean, its just logic here. You know the old saying: "Everything what we do echoes in eternity".

On atheism, it would go like this "Everything what we do echoes in...death and nothing-ness"


No Ultimate Meaning without Immortality and God


You dream up immortality because your fragile ego can't handle not being. You dream up a god because your fragile ego cannot handle being weaned into sentience without having your hand held. Meanings always arise from psyche, yours begs for maturity.
Great. You accuse religion of immaturity now ! How is that ?
Firstly, you make the first wrong and false assumption, which is that there is no immortality ( which might be false). So you assume that there is no immortality, than you accuse religion for being immature that they can't accept you view-that there is no immortality- on their part. But this is also a contradiction, because religion in general actually believes that there IS immortality.

Secondly, you make the second false assumption. You accuse religion of being egotistical...but if there is no immortality, there is no morality, so ego or a lack of it would have the same value as a piece of chocolate or vanilla, or a rock.

Meanings always arise from psyche, yours begs for maturity.
That I think is self-contradictory...if there is meaning, meaning does not reside in a psyche. Can you see what I mean here?
Or in other words, what does this statement mean: "Meanings always arise from psyche, yours begs for maturity"- is this statement meaningfull outside and independent of your psyche -objective meaning,- or it is tied to a mature psyche, which in this case a subjective meaning.

1.If its objective meaning, than your affirmation that "Meanings always arise from psyche, yours begs for maturity." is self-contradictory.

2.If its subjective meaning, than what values has you psyche meaning over Stalin psyche meaning?
No Ultimate Value Without Immortality and God


I believe in concept of soul. The value of a person is not measured by the gifts they've been given, it's what they do with their gifts that counts. It's what you leave in your wake. If where you've been has been graced by your presence because you left nothing but beauty, wisdom, joy, intrigue and empowerment behind you, you have a beautiful soul(defined non-dualistically) and your value as a person is uncontested! Leave ignorance, fear, pain, misery, and feelings of inferiority behind you then are a piece of shit.


I touch the lives of many people every day. What they gain from me is largely wisdom, joy, intrigue and empowerment. My value is uncontested and will continue to impact the world after I'm gone.
You said that "I touch the lives of many people every day.". But Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini did the same, they touched a lot of people. So is a drunk man. So, with why your "touch-ness" is better and more valuable than Hitler "touch-ness", or than how a thief would live his entire life...

The value of a person is not measured by the gifts they've been given, it's what they do with their gifts that counts. It's what you leave in your wake. If where you've been has been graced by your presence because you left nothing but beauty, wisdom, joy, intrigue and empowerment behind you, you have a beautiful soul(defined non-dualistically) and your value as a person is uncontested! Leave ignorance, fear, pain, misery, and feelings of inferiority behind you then are a piece of shit.
Exactly, so Stalin was a great man...so was Ghandi.
No Ultimate Purpose Without Immortality and God


The universe is indifferent to our existence. It does not bestow us with purpose. That is something we'll have to generate for themselves. My purpose is to make the world a better place. -to reformat society into a worthy expression of humanity. I'm going to accomplish it in a few decades. Your god has been incapable of accomplishing the same feat since it supposedly made this world millennia ago. Your god is not as potent of a being as I am, apparently. And I have greater purpose.
Again, yours "a beeter place" is not everyones "a better place". Some people would have other ideas of "better place". For example, there are some folks now in the world, like the muslims, that think you and I are not worthy to live...unless we bown down before Allah as a God...
You don't like their idea of a better place? Good, make yourself a army, gather power, and your idea will have priority.

Value of Life
Who are we? We are living beings. Of all the dull and mundane things we could have been, we are alive! We are the chemical equivalent of a chunk of ice and a few rocks. Yet, we are very different. Life is one of the most marvelous forms matter can take. Arranging chemicals in different ways will yield different properties. The properties of life are astounding. We truly are more than the sum of our parts. Matter comes in many different and wonderful forms: galaxies and stellar nurseries, nebula and planets... The list goes on an on. There is beauty, wonder and awe to be found everywhere in the universe. Still, life sets a new standard for intrinsic beauty and value. It is some of the coolest stuff in the universe. You! Yes, you are one of the most awesome and precious forms of matter that exist in the cosmos. The deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is not isolated from us, it is us!
I so agree with you on all this, but only if there is objective value to it...-which is only possible if God created the life- otherwise...do you know there were people who hated life? They wanted to be rocks and woods and dark galaxies...they even praise their own ideas in poetry. How would explain yourself to them, your "psyche full mature meaning" over their "psyche full mature meaning".?


Purpose of Life
you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again.
That would be true if you pretend to be it so...you can pretend there are so awesome and valuable things, which truly are, but this is saying something else...
 
@Rift Zone
I will try to respond at your points, because I think you have missunderstood William Lane Craig. This is not a personal attack, we're just talking, right?
Hi ya! @LucyJr.

Of course... You and I are just talking. I don't sense hostility from your note and I'm sorry if you felt I directed hostility toward you. William Craig is a different story. If he had anything relevant to add to this conversation then great. He is more than welcome to take his perspective and apply to the points made here. But walking in here with a bunch of religious propaganda that has already been largely dispelled is an attack. Good luck with that, Craig.

Why would life be more precious than death? Life was a mistake, an accident of evolutionary process, a blind phenomen. So why would life be more precious than anything, for example why is life more precious than a stone, or than death?

Young children, long before they have any sense of belief structures are well aware of the intrinsic value of life over inanimate objects. I submit to you that anyone who needs religion to gain that perspective would be defined by medical science as somehow faulty.

The word "precious" implies a value. Like I said earlier, this value in atheism can only be subjective. So if Hitler has other opinion than you, his opinion bear the same value as your opinion. t wons the opinion whi is sustained by more power.
Our value systems have both objective and subjective qualities. NO ONE thinks the right way to introduce a new baby into the family is to drop kick it. This is universal. The "subjective" argument makes assumptions that are not true. Hitler's opinion is equally recognized as a bad one. Particularly to atheists who's inherent value system includes the unity of humanity. Hitler's opinion clearly had origins in the religious views that some human groups are better than others.

Even if it would be that this life is to be lived for the next life, it would have a pupose, a significance and a value, which is to be prepared for the after-life. And if we are to live this life for the next life, it doesn't follow that this life has no value at all. I mean, its just logic here. You know the old saying: "Everything what we do echoes in eternity".
True. But devaluing your existence is the worst spiritual path you could take.

On atheism, it would go like this "Everything what we do echoes in...death and nothing-ness"
Tell that to Einstein. Galileo was atheist too. He won't persist long... Wait, what's the name of his Christian " friend" who exiled him? -he's gonna last forever.

Great. You accuse religion of immaturity now ! How is that ?
Firstly, you make the first wrong and false assumption, which is that there is no immortality ( which might be false). So you assume that there is no immortality, than you accuse religion for being immature that they can't accept you view-that there is no immortality- on their part. But this is also a contradiction, because religion in general actually believes that there IS immortality.

Secondly, you make the second false assumption. You accuse religion of being egotistical...but if there is no immortality, there is no morality, so ego or a lack of it would have the same value as a piece of chocolate or vanilla, or a rock.
I accused William Lane Craig of being immature.

I assume the laws of physics. Thus far, it demonstrates incompatibility with immortality. If it comes to pass that the property of the universe were demonstrated to include immortality then we have a lot to talk about concerning its implications. The universe actually says noting of the sort and goes even further by placing serious doubts about it all over the place. I'm afraid I can't take that approach seriously until the universe does.

Again, yours "a beeter place" is not everyones "a better place". Some people would have other ideas of "better place". For example, there are some folks now in the world, like the muslims, that think you and I are not worthy to live...unless we bown down before Allah as a God...
You don't like their idea of a better place? Good, make yourself a army, gather power, and your idea will have priority.
I think that's an example of some of the less than savory aspects of religious thinking.
 
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The only reason athiest spirituality exists is because the needs experienced by humans which gave rise to religion have not gone away, they are perrenial and natural, but religion is anathema to athiests so this process of creating a dichotomy, ie spirituality vs. religion (which I will grant exists in a different format in some christian evangelism which has unfortunately sought to try and capitalise upon secularism and liberal attacks upon institutional or organised religion), has taken place.

Its a lot like reinventing the wheel, there have been great atheists before who didnt subscribe to this dichotomy without being any the less atheists for it, such as Erich Fromm or Feurbach, I personally think none of it would have been necessary if it hadnt been for the emergence of "new atheism" or the so called "angry atheists", particularly popular comics, satirists etc. who all owe a great deal to bad religion, particularly bad varieties of christian fundamentalism.

The whole unnecessary nature of it all is well illustrated by this interview between Richard Dawkins and an RCC priest who does not fit the frame Dawkins expects or possibly even hoped for:

[video=youtube;32qY_Bv3kBg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32qY_Bv3kBg[/video]

Its the first of seven segments and its worth watching them all. I've seen some people discussing this topic suggest that Dawkins is on the verge of a conversion experience at one point and its probably intellectual pride which holds him back, I wouldnt go so far as that, although there is unfortunately the idea that disbelief is a mark of maturity among athiests which I think is unfortunate, its only one real obsticle to dialogue.

My point, which is my point generally in a lot of the so called "God debates", is that its often "bad religion" which is the spur to atheism, although atheism is unsatisfactory, so pseudo-religion is required whether its philosophy, ie naturalist etc., or its some sort of "we are all star stuff" mysticism, "bad religion" is simply bad, it does not require the jettisoning of what's been one of the most enduring and utilitarian vessels for human learning, experience, life for generations to deal with it.
 
The only reason athiest spirituality exists is because the needs experienced by humans which gave rise to religion have not gone away, they are perrenial and natural, but religion is anathema to athiests so this process of creating a dichotomy, ie spirituality vs. religion (which I will grant exists in a different format in some christian evangelism which has unfortunately sought to try and capitalise upon secularism and liberal attacks upon institutional or organised religion), has taken place.
Hello Lark,

I get the sense you didn't read the thread. That's cool, your choice. Spirituality is a fundamental human trait. And let's face it, we're not the only ones who would wonder about these things. Every creature who achieves sentience and has the capacity for complex thought and understanding would likely have the exact same questions we do. Spirituality is not the mark of humanity, it is the mark of humanity being born into sentience. Spirituality is a mark of sentience and every creature bright enough likely has it. Religion is purely a human expression of spirituality. Elephants and dolphins and most of the Academy of Sciences don't buy into it.

My point, which is my point generally in a lot of the so called "God debates", is that its often "bad religion" which is the spur to atheism, although atheism is unsatisfactory, so pseudo-religion is required whether its philosophy, ie naturalist etc., or its some sort of "we are all star stuff" mysticism, "bad religion" is simply bad, it does not require the jettisoning of what's been one of the most enduring and utilitarian vessels for human learning, experience, life for generations to deal with it.
Not everyone is deeply spiritual. Some could care less, from what I've seen. But most of us care. Our relationship to the universe is pretty clear. The fact your form and capacity was brought about through interactions with all life cannot be challenged. And yes, there is a bit of philosophy involved with translating that into meaning. You point that out for what reason? As if varying philosophies were not used in religion. You only have one bible, if your philosophy was consistent you would only have one form of Christianity.

pseudo-religion... That's interesting. Atheist spirituality teaches we are of nature. To appreciate and protect it because it is a part of your being already.

What happens when we vacation or gets lots of money? We head straight to the densest industrial areas there are to build dream homes and vacation. Oh wait, I have that wrong... We go straight to nature. We vacation in beauty and we take natural beauty and put as much as we can afford of it in our back yards. Rainbows and butterflies, sunsets, waterfalls, beaches and reefs are a prerequisite to a happy and healthy human psyche. -because deep down we know exactly where we came from and our being has had a relationship with the universe the whole time. Our consciousness is just catching up, that's all.
 
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I think humanity is drawn to spirituality. We are drawn to expressions of spirituality because we do yearn for identity.

The simplest explanation for this is that we are spiritual beings having a third dimensional experience and not the other way around. Being drawn to spirituality is always a personal matter of trying to identify and feel the spirit. However; everyone is entitled to experience their spirituality through whichever scripture or set of teachings that resonate with them. It is also true that certain teachings; especially the ones written by men for power and control purpose are harmful and does not represent the pure spiritual teachings that are full of wisdom and also useful in helping the individual live a better life. It then becomes the duty of man/woman to identify the real spiritual teachings from that of the false teachings. The only way to accomplish is to get in touch with our own inner knowing that exists within us and not look to others interpretation but of our own. Its a very personal relationship with the Spirit and those who follow this know what Im talking about. This is harder to understand if the individual is not in touch with their own spirit for whatever reason. They will not understand it until they personally experience it. Like love; you will not know what love really is until you are in the thick of it; experiencing it with all your being. Spirituality is the same.
 
Hello--

Here's my attempt to answer your question about seminary/congregation disconnect and my own spiritual journey.

Within the Christian faith, seminaries, or pastor training schools, vary widely in their curricula, doctrine and even the amount of time required for ordination. There really is no universal accrediting authority except the denomination itself. On one extreme, we have a denomination that requires three years of intense postgraduate study that includes contemporary and traditional reading in Hebrew scripture, Greek scripture, church history and historical-critical theology. They also include psychology and pastoral counseling leading to a master’s degree in divinity.

On the other extreme, I’ll use the example of a newly minted pastor from a small non-denominational church I happened to meet. I asked him about his seminary experience and he described a “preacher camp” where men (all men, of course!) met for six weeks at a camp and prayed, did Bible studies and listened to lectures. At the end, they were given certificates and were duly ordained.

The preacher’s ability to quote individual bible verses was awesome, and having a Baptist background yourself, you can probably appreciate that. But when I probed a little deeper behind his understanding of a particular verse, he would simply repeat what he had learned about that verse and had grown up with. That’s all he had to work with. At the end of our conversation, I felt that I was questioning him in Mandarin Chinese and he was answering me in Aramaic.

Now our “preacher camp” pastor had been assigned to a poor congregation in a rundown neighborhood in a declining city. Most of the folks were quite old and not well educated.
The pastor was probably just what they were looking for: he was kind, performed nice funerals and weddings and offered familiar words of comfort for the sick and dying. How did he respond to difficult theological questions? He never was asked any.

So lets take a look at our well educated pastor with the M.Div. from a mainline seminary. Well versed in modern theory and religious history, she (and it probably is a “she” these days) meets her congregation and delivers her Easter sermon. She speaks of the “metaphorical resurrection” of the Christ-spirit, laying aside a physical “resuscitation’ which is not supported by early teaching. She goes on to illustrate that many of Jesus’ words and concepts quoted in the New Testament are “borrowed” from the Old Testament and many of the miracles described in the New Testament had themes almost identical to pagan miracles of the time and that miracles were a “dime a dozen” in the Middle East in the days preceding science.

Can you imagine the icy looks coming from the congregation of well-educated professionals and stay-at-home suburban moms dressed in their Easter finery? They were expecting a “Jesus-died-on-the-cross-for-our-sins-and-now-lives-in-heaven-where-he’s-now-our-best-friend” sermon and they get....THAT!

The problem was explained by a prominent liberal theologian and applies to most Christian congregations regardless of their wealth and geography. “Everything I know about God I learned in Sunday school when I was eight.”

In order for one to grow in faith (and Paul wrote that they must grow in faith,) Christians, or any other religious folk, must allow themselves to be exposed to new ideas, examine orthodoxy in new ways and strive to better understand what was, and is, being revealed through time. You can’t do that by memorizing bible verses or with sermons that amount to a soft pat on the head every week.

For many new pastors, the chasm between what is taught in seminary and what is understood within the congregations is simply too daunting to bridge. In order to keep their jobs, many of the educated pastors stuff the “new theology” in the closet and become more like the “preacher camp’ pastor. Some quit their jobs. Some quit their faith.

I won’t engage in “liberal theology apologetics” here, but I will say that learning of a way to express my spirituality within a Christian framework and still be true to my intellectual self was one of the most deep and meaningful epiphanies of my life. I discovered new ways to understand old stories and learned that many Christian concepts that are taken by many as literal gospel today weren’t interpreted that way by the earliest Christians.

Through hard work, and setting aside the superstitious trappings concocted by humans, I’ve been able to arrive at a place that retains spiritual mystery of my faith, preserves the awesome beauty of universal creation and allows me to keep my intellectual self intact.

Is this a journey that everyone should take? I don’t think so. It was the journey I needed to take. This is a difficult world in which we live; there is much we know. And more that we don’t know. As our body of knowledge expands, so must our spirituality, and be transformed into a living, breathing, changeable thing that embraces and lifts humanity.

So I have circled back, having walked away from religion entirely and then discovering a new way to embrace my Christian spirituality with authenticity.
 
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law–a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." -Jesus Of Nazareth (Matthew 10:34-37)


God is not a lesson on spirituality, god is a lesson on obedience. It is engineered to establish a hierarchy of authority. You are told of wonderful things but you are taught you are a subordinate who needs to humbly accept your station in life.


You live in a place of exile. This is not your true home. This is a trial of some sort, this world is supposed to suck. This life is not time to experience joy, happiness, or fulfillment. These are essentially the teachings of religion. This is crushing to the human psyche. In the Christian mind, having a messed up world with pain, misery, suffering, starvation and subjugation all over the place is a good day. This is status quo, guys. This is a good as it gets, and the most we could/should ever expect. This is exactly how religion desecrates our planet! Ask yourself: "What, exactly, is the Christian vision of a better world?" What does that look like in the Christian mind? I know the answer to that one: armageddon. The vision of the future for religion is complete destruction. There is no scenario in the Christian mind that includes making this world a worthy expression of humanity. Believers fail their species and planet in favor of seeking the favor of an imaginary friend.


What religions teach is fundamentally true on a few points: you live on a fallen world, you are a pawn on someone else's chessboard and complete destruction is the end result. The major difference is this is entirely a human enterprise. The world has fallen because of religion, because of humans dictating your reality more than trying to understand it. The religious have been subjugated. -But their world view is that they are pawns in a world not meant for them to completely understand... That this life is supposed to be wrought with hardship and misery... That your only salvation is death. They have no idea what's happened to them and they think the world should be this way. This "fallen" world, as I describe it, is nothing more than the terrible shape our world is in: collapsing ocean ecosystem (that continent sized pile of trash in the Pacific probably isn't helping), global warming, deforestation.


There are no redeeming qualities to religion. The communities that exist within religious circles are truly communities built around spirituality. Religion is a horrible expression of spirituality. The communities that could form around atheist spirituality have far greater potential than ones with deistic ties. Also, there is no reason to value the bible as a source of morality. The bible says a lot of crazy things about code of conduct. Do Christians follow them all? Why not? Because they did not gain your morality from the bible. They may have aligned your morality with the bible, picking and choosing what suited you best (just like we all do), but they did not inherit their morality from the bible -as if they would be a complete neanderthal without it. Any "high ground" associated with following the bible is utter crap. The only difference between atheists and believers is atheists access their morality and sense of humanity directly. We don't process it through a book of hate.*
[*You hear a little about how god loves you. You hear about how you better, damn well, love your god. Most of the bible is pestilence, war, rape, murder. All in all, its not a love story about humanity and existence. It's a depressing look into the darkest age of humanity. -Lots of hate.]


The Mayan Calendar needs it clock wound. The planet is in a mass hysteria because religion has kept us in a state of identity crisis for so long we can't even grasp the significance of it. I was shocked and amazed that there was such a big deal made out of this. What impact does a form of human time keeping make on the universe? I mean, is the fate of the universe, at least world, tied to a calendar of an ancient civilization? Humanity could not answer those questions. In a day and age when we have so much information about the properties of the universe, humanity couldn't seem to grasp the significance of a clock needing its spring wound. It's alright folks, just a new calendar, no new world necessary. That type of crap is a direct result of religion's influence. Humanity doesn't know what's what, or even what is really supposed to be. And with that arose a system that is not conducive to the longevity of any species, particularly our own! That whole situation seemed absurd to me but I can appreciate its origins through a religious perspective. For one, their world view has them searching for a dooms day scenario in the first place. For two, the religious view includes angels and demons and a whole assortment of phenomena not really well supported by science/demonstrable fact. The seriousness of how disconnected that can make some from the properties of reality is demonstrated in the fervor the calendar caused. I know a few people would freak out about such things no matter what but that event was more representative of mass hysteria and it is a direct function of religious teaching.


Examples of religion's power is everywhere, creationism in schools is an example. One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." -In a nation built specifically to isolate religion from governance. There are many examples in science. Big Bang Theory = Ex nihilo. -Modern cosmology supports the creation story in Genesis. The story of continent formation also comes directly from the bible. "Fractional Differentiation" is described as the process that gave us continents. That story came straight out of Genesis. The Archaic Crust Theory of our continents (found in the science section) is irrefutable but remains out of mainstream science because it contradicts the bible. I kid you not. Religion never stopped it's attack on science! I don't think they burn people any more but they do prevent research, curtail careers and make sure science tells us what the church wants us to hear. NGC 7603 is a prime example if this. That structure definitively refutes a premise the Big Bang theory relies upon for legitimacy. Scientists have lost telescope privileges, funding and have been reassigned because of voicing interest in researching that structure. We now have science telling us bible stories and not aligning with the dogma can cost good scientists their careers.


Religion is the foremost authority on teaching racism and hate. I concede it says things like love your neighbor but it says a lot more about smiting peoples and Gentiles are beneath you and so on. The bible places emphasis on group superiorities throughout it. It never comes out and tells you to treat other groups badly but the examples are so ubiquitous that it would be hard not to internalize that notion somehow. The implication this has on world view is profound. In spite of religion trying to argue against the point, the essence of the bible turns humanity away from believing in the brotherhood of all humans. It serves to perpetuate group separation and by doing so it keeps us isolated from another and further reliant on deity.


Reliance on deity is another issue. Religion wants your single most intimate relationship to be with god. This stifles humanity's progression. Rather that work things out among ourselves religion teaches us to appeal elsewhere. This is facet of world view is tragic on so many interpersonal and societal levels. We could have a whole discussion on the implications of this alone.


Time and time again religious individuals have told me things like: "We live on a fallen world." This all part of god's plan. We don't even have the capacity it hurt the Earth because it's god's design. All of these concepts are seriously detrimental to inspiration where it matters most. The religious essentially tell me the world should be this way. Now I know not all Christians are invested in those types of beliefs but even then, they're still dealing with a world view that gives some sort of justification for the way things are, because god did create it that way after all. Combine that with what we've already established about Christian world view and now we're looking at this: world is meant to be crap, perhaps we even deserve it (being the delinquents we are) and you're not supposed to focus your attention on this world anyway. I really have to question religion's capacity to inspire.




Perhaps the most tragic thing about religion is it squanders spirituality. Spirituality is the deep, even primal connection we have with our world/universe/existence. That feeling of elation, that tingle in your spine when you feel you connected on a fundamental level with something beyond humanity is spirituality. My spirituality is rich with awe, wonder, intrigue, delight, and curiosity. My connection to the natural world is something I feel more than know about. Knowing what a gifted species we are and how lucky we are to have this precious world as our home brings me intense delight every day. We may not be the center of the universe but we are among it's most honored. That's just plain cool. Go Earth, you rock! Throwing that all away to go follow a dark age cult who will make you bad about yourself seems like such a waste. Carl Sagan mentioned, "our species is young and curious and brave and shows much promise". The true tragedy is we're really not showing much of our promise right now. We are a bright and profoundly capable species. Improving upon all of our systems, social included, is part of our nature. Unfortunately, religion serves to keep us complacent. Religion has been observed to be the "elixir of the masses". I think that is exactly true. Rather than drawing upon our strengths and making this world a happy home for us all, religion has taken advantage of our weakness and redirected all of our hopes and dreams into an afterlife that has just as much relevance to existence as fore-life does [-nada, zip, ziltch... What ever "amnesia" believers experienced coming into this life will only get worse as they leave it. The limits of experience are sadly confined within conception and death.]


Atheist spirituality: you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again. I believe spirituality is the key to saving the world because of these types of teachings. Atheist spirituality teaches the kinship of all species, not just humanity. Its underlying teachings include humanity is gifted and beautiful. That we are capable. That our destiny is bright and our time here is precious. That this is our only home and we should take care of it. That all forms of life have value. That a healthy and happy humanity requires healthy and happy world/ecosystems... Spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. It can, has and does define the past, present and future of our being and domain. No other manifestation can make such an impact on our world because nothing else can inspire us like it can.


"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan
.


After reviewing your points, it is my conclusion that you might want to expand your experience a bit on pantheism as well as monotheism. I may have interpreted incorrectly, but it seems that your argument against religion was directly more toward abrahamism, which is an obtuse view of those religions that do believe in a God source.
 
Hello--


Can you imagine the icy looks coming from the congregation of well-educated professionals and stay-at-home suburban moms dressed in their Easter finery? They were expecting a “Jesus-died-on-the-cross-for-our-sins-and-now-lives-in-heaven-where-he’s-now-our-best-friend” sermon and they get....THAT!
Hello!


No kidding! Honestly, I think my ears would perk up if I heard any of that. How novel! This is news to me. I'm very interested in knowing more about M.div. perspective. Sadly, I can imagine internal forces worrying about perceived legitimacy if they departed from traditional teachings so I wonder if there's any internal pressure to keep more traditional teachings in place.


The irony is I fully agree about needing to grow. -everything! I once read every closed systems either evolves or becomes instinct. As far as religion was concerned, I always felt its rigidity was clear sign of it being contrived -if it were a natural part of humanity's being it would be able to grow with us.


I won’t engage in “liberal theology apologetics” here, but I will say that learning of a way to express my spirituality within a Christian framework and still be true to my intellectual self was one of the most deep and meaningful epiphanies of my life. I discovered new ways to understand old stories and learned that many Christian concepts that are taken by many as literal gospel today weren’t interpreted that way by the earliest Christians.


Through hard work, and setting aside the superstitious trappings concocted by humans, I’ve been able to arrive at a place that retains spiritual mystery of my faith, preserves the awesome beauty of universal creation and allows me to keep my intellectual self intact.


Is this a journey that everyone should take? I don’t think so. It was the journey I needed to take. This is a difficult world in which we live; there is much we know. And more that we don’t know. As our body of knowledge expands, so must our spirituality, and be transformed into a living, breathing, changeable thing that embraces and lifts humanity.


So I have circled back, having walked away from religion entirely and then discovering a new way to embrace my Christian spirituality with authenticity.
Awesome! I'm really interested in knowing more about your journey and where it led you. I'm still interested in discussing it here, for cross comparison, but we can take this conversation to another thread or something. Feel like sharing?

After reviewing your points, it is my conclusion that you might want to expand your experience a bit on pantheism as well as monotheism. I may have interpreted incorrectly, but it seems that your argument against religion was directly more toward abrahamism, which is an obtuse view of those religions that do believe in a God source.
Hmm...

I think you criticize me, for characterizing all religions as similar to Abrahamic? Did I get that right? If so, I can see how I might leave that impression. It's not so, though. I'm familiar with a very broad range of expressions of spirituality. You are right about me focusing on the Abrahamic ones. All religions amount to expressions of spirituality. The Abrahamic ones seem more malicious to me than the others. Not to mention Judaism, Christianity and Islam represent the vast majority of most of the world's population. To be perfectly honest, the goals of this project would get fulfilled even if the remaining ones still stood. The rest may exist in peace for all I care; namaste.

If you're wondering about my exposure to spirituality itself: I might know it better than religion. I'm certainly focused on it more when I explore other's beliefs. I'm focused on it more within the project too.
 
Hi there.

I'm glad you found some of my journey interesting. I come from a background similar to yours and struggled to make sense out of stuff that just didn't make any sense. Being told to "just have faith" never cut it for me, and still doesn't. I was listening to NPR quite a while ago and heard an interview with John Shelby Spong. He had just debated--not an atheist, but a fundamentalist pastor. I found it completely refreshing and revelatory. I proceeded to consume just about everything Spong had written. More than anything, his work allowed me to be okay with using my brain and still be true to my spirituality. You can Google his name and come across quite a bit of free stuff online. His own web site has been somewhat monetized (probably to help fund his retirement--he's 83). He still speaks for free all over the country. His book "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" is probably his clearest work. I have also followed other progressive Christians, including Dr. Marcus Borg. (The Jesus Project).

Do the "internal forces" push back? You bet they do! That's why schism is so popular within religious organizations and probably why there are 30,000+ Christian denominations in the world. (Of course, 98% of them believe they're the only legitimate one!). I also chuckle to myself when I think of the middle-aged preachers of the 60's decrying the "satanic" Elvis Presley and now 40 years later, can be found at a wedding, stumbling around the dance floor to Blue Suede Shoes! Time is on truth's side.

I'd be interested in knowing what kind of regulating or animating structure you envision for advancing atheist spirituality. It would seem that you would need something or someone to gather around to keep everyone from going off in a million different directions. I also wonder what you think of socialism. I have a friend in Sweden who is active in the Social Democrat party. She has beliefs and actions similar to my own, but without the "God part." She uses the party and socialist values to animate her own spirituality in a secular way. Her beliefs and actions are more "Christian" than many Christians I know.

If you'd like to continue this conversation here or elsewhere, I'm game. This thread would probably be fine as I suspect this is not a topic a lot of people want to dig into too deeply or broadly. But if folks want to drop by and add their respectful thoughts, why not?
 
Hello!

Hmm...

I think you criticize me, for characterizing all religions as similar to Abrahamic? Did I get that right? If so, I can see how I might leave that impression. It's not so, though. I'm familiar with a very broad range of expressions of spirituality. You are right about me focusing on the Abrahamic ones. All religions amount to expressions of spirituality. The Abrahamic ones seem more malicious to me than the others. Not to mention Judaism, Christianity and Islam represent the vast majority of most of the world's population. To be perfectly honest, the goals of this project would get fulfilled even if the remaining ones still stood. The rest may exist in peace for all I care; namaste.

If you're wondering about my exposure to spirituality itself: I might know it better than religion. I'm certainly focused on it more when I explore other's beliefs. I'm focused on it more within the project too.

It did seem to me that much of the focus against religion was based on Abrahamic sects, however, I am fully aware that I don't have all of your thoughts and experiences at my disposal to make a true educated critique of your ideas. I would agree that the majority of religions have been warped as followers add their own interpretations to doctrine and rite. I have researched many different religions and philosophies coming to the conclusion that the spirituality of interdependence is by far the most important epiphany to comprehend. Your concepts do hold promise, but I feel that some people have to have a God source in order to better themselves. I believe some people out there have to feel there is an outward "checks and balances" system with which to gauge their morality. It is not easy - and a bit frightening, I'm sure - to many to simply view spirituality as a mesh of energies from Earth to ensconcing environment to human energy. (if that makes sense :p ). Human beings have this innate need to compete, generally speaking, and to make themselves seem "above" someone else. I'm not condoning such behavior but it is a constant that I've witnessed over the years. I don't believe it is done intentionally. I have relatives who are devout Pentecostal and judge others solely on the fact of whether or not they act as "holy". This of course is a detrimental train of thought to indulge. I would love to see a universal spirituality, but I'm unsure if the human psyche will allow for such a unified existence. There will always be people who feel their views are right where others are wrong. What do you feel would be the best way to approach unifying the populace in even accepting atheistic spirituality?
 
I'm glad you found some of my journey interesting. I come from a background similar to yours and struggled to make sense out of stuff that just didn't make any sense. Being told to "just have faith" never cut it for me, and still doesn't. I was listening to NPR quite a while ago and heard an interview with John Shelby Spong. He had just debated--not an atheist, but a fundamentalist pastor. I found it completely refreshing and revelatory. I proceeded to consume just about everything Spong had written. More than anything, his work allowed me to be okay with using my brain and still be true to my spirituality.


That's awesome! Well done, Spong! I'll have to take a look at his work, thanks for the tip! Probably just in time... The fundamentalist Christian regime that has taken over the US government in recent times scares me.


I also wonder what you think of socialism. I have a friend in Sweden who is active in the Social Democrat party. She has beliefs and actions similar to my own, but without the "God part." She uses the party and socialist values to animate her own spirituality in a secular way. Her beliefs and actions are more "Christian" than many Christians I know.


Approaches to governance... Yikes! =) I don't think humanity has yet devised a truly appropriate form of governance. I see merits in a wide assortment of views and approaches. Socialism being one of them. There are definitely values there that align with my own. My view is no existing form of governance really covers all the bases that should be covered. I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to give much of an opinion of unless we start dissecting the nuances of whatever approach.


If you'd like to continue this conversation here or elsewhere, I'm game. This thread would probably be fine as I suspect this is not a topic a lot of people want to dig into too deeply or broadly. But if folks want to drop by and add their respectful thoughts, why not?


Why thank you sir, I'm honored. Here would be great! I must remind you, however, that here would also mean I would pay homage to the intent of this thread as I explored your understanding. It's a paradoxical juxtaposition as I am sincerely interested in becoming a student of your spiritual path, but I will also attempt to show greater value within atheist spirituality. Honestly, I don't think there's going to be many distinctions between them, aside from how we frame it. We could easily take this somewhere else, where I'm pure student.


To start, you obviously found your spirituality diverges from more typical views of your faith. How did that manifest? What were the distinctions? What were your earliest steps on your own path?


I'd be interested in knowing what kind of regulating or animating structure you envision for advancing atheist spirituality. It would seem that you would need something or someone to gather around to keep everyone from going off in a million different directions.


I would love to see a universal spirituality, but I'm unsure if the human psyche will allow for such a unified existence. There will always be people who feel their views are right where others are wrong. What do you feel would be the best way to approach unifying the populace in even accepting atheistic spirituality?


I also chuckle to myself when I think of the middle-aged preachers of the 60's decrying the "satanic" Elvis Presley and now 40 years later, can be found at a wedding, stumbling around the dance floor to Blue Suede Shoes! Time is on truth's side.


Excellent point! Time is on truth's side! That perspective captures a lot of my strategy within this dream. And so does this:


"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
Max Planck


[^^Archaic Crust Theory!] I mentioned in here somewhere my dream was to subvert indoctrination. I'm not interested in taking people's faith away from them. I'm interested in the next generation taking faith in something worthy of it, ourselves. My involvement in this dream is to build and support a few books. I have a dream of building a better world, but I'm not going to be the one doing it. I don't think I'm going to be around to see what becomes of this project/my dream.


I'm articulating atheist spirituality. I'm placing into language the relationship we all have to the universe. The thing is, Spinnaker, you are absolutely right! It will run off in a million different directions. Billions actually! Step into one church and you will find as many different takes on belief structures as there are people. Everyone develops their own relationship with the universe. Everyone! None are identical. I fully expect a world full of atheists would express their spirituality in as many different forms as we see within religion today. I'm not looking to build a superstructure, or atheist "church". The common ground I envision is within spirituality itself. I imagine it will be fertile ground for philosophy to start sending new shoots into. It will naturally diversify. And so it should. The most difficult part in articulating all this is taking my spirituality out of it. Atheism will never tell you what your spiritual relationship with the universe is. Never! If it does, then it crosses the line into dogma and betrays its own existence. What I mean by articulating spirituality is I'm working to build a framework for it, a skeleton. I'm incapable of telling anyone what their spirituality is, how it should manifest; but I am capable of telling them where they can find it. Fleshing it out is the beauty of their path. The real beauty is individual paths will interweave back into the common ground and in that way the framework of spirituality will grow with humanity.


Animating it? I imagine it will get off to a slow start. As far as unifying, that's inherent in the teachings. I dream of the next generation choosing atheist spirituality, purely on basis of its merits within identity, world view, relationships with other species... Atheist spirituality is going to speak to the souls of humanity with far more authority than religion simply because of its nature, simply because it has the greatest alignment with our true being. I have no doubt the merits within atheist spirituality will make it a prominent expression of spirituality. I have no doubt these merits will inspire humanity to build a better world.


Build a better world... That's the dream! =) Spirituality is the path, which is why we're talking about it in the philosophy section at this moment, but my dream is more involved than that. I intend to publish this project in a small series/set of books. Spirituality is the topic of only one of them. The others are focused on humanity's social systems: governance, representation, corporations, education, transportation, energy, natural resources, medicine, media, agriculture... I'm taking a real close look at what society is. I'm working to sort out how our systems serve us. I'm going to spend a fair amount of time discussing how they fail us. What "right" looks like is open for debate but I'll also throw in a few opinions on that.


This world has been given to us through the private interests of countless business, governance, and religious entities -all vying for more power. I believe it was [MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION] who posted a video clip about wealth distribution, I think in the US, might have been global. I can't find it now but the reality it describes is profound bull shit! At no point in history has humanity stood on its own accord and tried to build a world they'd be happy to call home. -also profound bs. My dream is to change that. We can build a society that is a worthy expression of humanity. One that reflects our overwhelming positive traits, rather than this, where our lesser traits reign.


Spirituality and religion are sensitive subjects. Approaching them with sensitivity is warranted. I'm afraid governance and corporations are not so lucky. In comparison to my treatment of religion, I'm going to rip corporations and governance limb from limb. The character of society does not reflect our character! This is world is NOT a true expression of humanity's nature. And this is where spirituality comes in. I'm going to tie everything in together. Spirituality AND society are both functions of our being. Both exist as expressions of our nature. We choose our spirituality but our world just happens to us? I think not. I think we choose that too, only we haven't made any choices. I want us to feel who we are, know our potential, and build a world that actually aligns with our being. My dream is to make saving the world a spiritual quest for humanity. Once we figure out who and what we are, it will only be a matter of time before the face of the planet follows suit.
 
Not mine....
 
Not mine....
hmm... @muir! My final answer... Did I win? =) Hi ya, muir! I'm accusing you of posting a video on wealth distribution. Pretty sure it was you, anyway, thanks to whomever!


Oh, and for those who wonder... I don't have anything against the religious! At all. Most the people I know are religious, they are fine people. When I was kayaking down the Missouri River I lived with a preacher and his family for a month while I worked on their house. We still keep in touch. Our Theological discussions got really deep at times. They are absolutely fabulous people! I mean, who throws a traveling stranger a birthday party just because he's too far from home to share it with his own friends and family? Humanity is beautiful. Abrahamic religions: not so much.
 

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