Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World: | INFJ Forum

Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World:

Rift Zone

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Jan 19, 2014
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Hello everyone! I was having a conversation with [MENTION=10252]say what[/MENTION] behind the scenes and sharing it with a bigger audience came up. Well, I recognize the infinite wisdom of INFJs so, here it is! I'm really sorry about the logistical issues involved with trying to share an existing conversation here. I'm going to do my best to backtrack and cover the points that brought us to our current points. I imagine I'll miss something. If you see any gaps in the discussion you'd like to see filled in, please let me know.


***Warning!*** This conversation is about my personal beliefs and why I'm working to publish them. They are not common beliefs and I don't suspect everyone will embrace them. Controversial may be a good term for them, they may provoke strong feelings in some. None the less, say what and I were sharing our views about these things openly, honestly, and with mutual courtesy. I hope you'll join in with the same spirit.


*****Double Warning!***** I oppose religion, strongly. I have harsh criticisms of religion's value in this post/thread. I feel I have good reason to oppose religion and if you give me a chance to explain, I'd be happy to share my thoughts with you. Whether or not you ultimately agree with me, I assure you, you will find my heart is in the right place. You see, this thread is ultimately about spirituality and humanity realizing more of its potential. I feel the two are closely interconnected.


I identify as being a very spiritual being. I have very strong opinions about spirituality and a strong personal relationship with it. I am very atheist. I know atheism is not commonly viewed as a spiritual path but I'm under the impression it's the purest, truest, most fulfilling, and most empowering expression of spirituality there is. I think Abrahamic religions amount to subjugation. I think atheist spirituality is the key to saving the world. I know that last one was quite a jump. It is why I'm working to publish this collection of thoughts. If you give me a few moments of your time, I'll demonstrate how to inspire humanity like never before.


This all started with a deep concern about the shape of our planet. Things don't seem right in this world and I wanted to know why that was. (I'm a science geek, figuring out the nature of complex systems that interact non-linearly is one of my favorite sports!) So I dissected everything I saw about this world and this is what I came up with: all of the environmental, political reform, and humanitarian groups that exist are dealing with peripheral symptoms of more fundamental issues. Even as wonderful as they are and as lost as we'd be without them, they're not dealing with the real problems so their successes will always amount to minor victories. Making the world a better place requires addressing the root causes. I'm believe I've traced these fundamental issues back to their source and I have a dream about addressing them and bringing about a better era for humanity and the ecosystems that sustain us.


Are you familiar with Carl Sagan? (promise I'll make sense of all this) I hope you are familiar with him because I'd like to introduce an uncommon expression of spirituality. YouTubing a couple of clips from his old PBS series "Cosmos" would be a good way to see a bit of what I explain here. That man was in love. He loved existence, he loved sentience, and he loved the universe that gave us those gifts! He was deeply passionate about his relationship with the universe. He was a scientist. He was atheist. He was one of the world's most spiritual men. That love he felt for existence and the universe is spirituality at its best.


Spirituality is the endeavor to understand and identify one's self with their origin and relation to the universe. Spirituality is a fundamental human trait. We want to know who we are. We want to know where we came from. We want to know what we're doing here. We even want to know what our destiny holds for us. These types of questions are the essence of spirituality. The answers are our identity.


Atheist spirituality looks to science for direction. After all, our origin and relation to the universe exists solely within the realm of the sciences. The natural world is our origin and relation to the universe. Physics, chemistry and biology do a good job of explaining many of the questions we ask but it's not complete. Spirituality is not exactly an interdisciplinary science, for lack of a better term, it's a feeling. We're not just looking for some answers, were looking for ourselves! We are looking for things deeply related to our being and we often feel it deeply when our spirituality is engaged. Aligning ourselves with, getting in touch with what we make of our spirituality may be one of the deepest, primal and rewarding experiences we could have.


The tragedy of modern atheism is even atheists think you need deity to have spirituality. Granted, the universe is rather indifferent to our existence. Irrelevant, there's no need for a pat on the back from the universe to have spirituality either. In fact, the whole notion is insulting to true spirituality. We have an atmosphere that assumes the deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is disassociated from us. That at best, there's some sort of alliance we can form. That's ridiculous! We are some of the deepest, most amazing and wondrous parts of the universe!


Who are we? We are living beings. Of all the dull and mundane things we could have been, we are alive! We are the chemical equivalent of a chunk of ice and a few rocks. Yet, we are very different. Life is one of the most marvelous forms matter can take. Arranging chemicals in different ways will yield different properties. The properties of life are astounding. We truly are more than the sum of our parts. Matter comes in many different and wonderful forms: galaxies and stellar nurseries, nebula and planets... The list goes on an on. There is beauty, wonder and awe to be found everywhere in the universe. Still, life sets a new standard for intrinsic beauty and value. It is some of the coolest stuff in the universe. You! Yes, you are one of the most awesome and precious forms of matter that exist in the cosmos. The deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is not isolated from us, it is us!


I like to tell myself: "If making the world a better place was an easy thing to accomplish, it probably would have been done already." The problems of this world are very complex but that doesn't mean their causes can't be known or addressed. As I dug deeper and deeper into the problems of the world I started to notice a trend. It seemed the problems of the world stemmed from our identity. World view seems to play a huge role in the condition of this planet. I regret to report the world view I'm referring to comes from religion. What I found was the problems of this world exactly mirrored the underlying teachings of Abrahamic Religions. Religion keeps humanity from realizing more of its potential. I hope the religious can forgive me for criticizing their belief structure. Attacking religion was never a choice I wanted to make. My dream is to make the world a better place. This is why I feel religions stand in the way...




"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law–a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." -Jesus Of Nazareth (Matthew 10:34-37)


I guess questioning religion is of bad taste and poor judgement, perhaps it even displays lack of character. Who told you that? -Religion. Religion is a supreme strategist and it does not operate for the benefit of humanity. Religion pops into your head, what do you associate with it? God, is my guess. Religion is the richest and most powerful entity on the planet. I assure you, they didn't get all that power by praying to their god. When I think of religion, I think of impact it makes on humanity. It's not a good look for humanity. Also, when I think religion, I think of the Abrahamic ones. Every time I say religion here I mean Judaism, Christianity, Islam and their ilk.


You live on one of the most precious and remarkable places in the entire universe. Religion would have you believe this is a place of exile which is meant to suck. That this isn't your true home. That this is some bullshit existence you need to suffer through. Religions will take the deepest parts of you, your dreams, your aspirations, your spirituality and have you lock it away for your entire life. In place they teach you to quietly appeal to a phantasm for your woes. They teach you're a subordinate and to be accepting of the sad state of affairs that surrounds you. Largely believing that is EXACTLY why humanity lives far, far below it's potential. Religion will break it down to you gently and slowly, with love and compassion, but they will eventually have you believing a set of circumstances that doesn't give humanity a lot of inspiration. In fact, the deistic world view is crushing to the human desire to search and understand and further refine all our systems. The deistic world view is engineered to keep status quo. Technology progresses but humanity, our social systems largely do not because of this.


In its simplest terms: Why are we here? -to get to somewhere else. Already we have a world view that directs attention and investment away from this world.


Religions are designed to hold you hostage in your own mind. The concept of "original sin" is firmly established in many faiths. They assert that you are in the wrong simply because you were born, that you have a debt to pay just because you're alive. They imply your very existence is somehow tainted and you must seek salvation for the crime of being. This is absurd. So what if some chick took an apple that was on private property? We didn't do that. We are not guilty of that crime. Religion has a lot of nerve trying to pin that on us. I am guilty of having knowledge. Abandoning knowledge is what that story is about. It teaches you to feel guilty for knowing. You are not supposed to know. You are not supposed to question. You are supposed to obey: sit back, shut up and give the church your money... Try not to think about it too much. Lets be very clear about this, no god will ever need your money! It's a "god". What could it possibly need from you? It would either be ineffectual or it would have serious emotional issues if it truly needed anything from you. And what is humanity supposed to gain from this? What does this teach us about our place in the universe? Thou art little bitches, is kinda what it sounds like to me. The impression it leaves is somewhat harsh and derogatory no matter how you look at it. The way I see it, that leaves us with: not only do we have a world view focused elsewhere, now we're delinquents of some sort...but there's potential for redemption if you do what the church says. Think of how this compares to the atheist perspective: We are the coolest things in the universe! This is in stark contrast to being subordinates in need of reprimand.




Religions purposefully try to devalue your being! They do all they can to demean your existence. They want you to believe that you are somehow in error and need to be corrected. They create an ailment in you, allegedly, only they have the cure for. Being delinquents who need to redeem themselves is only the start. The abuses to your being only get worse as you get further involved with their teachings. They tell you more things to make you feel bad about yourself. More propaganda to make their "cure" more appealing. They will force you into ideologies and behaviors that are contrary to your being; sexuality being an example. The internal conflict that subsequently arises by forcing idealisms that are contrary to our nature assures minor dysfunctionalities develop in a lot of the indoctrinated! Before long, they sincerely need their psychological crutch of a god because a fair amount of their value, their identity has been stripped from them. For some, they truly stand with god or not at all. -much to religions happiness because it's goal.


God is not a lesson on spirituality, god is a lesson on obedience. It is engineered to establish a hierarchy of authority. You are told of wonderful things but you are taught you are a subordinate who needs to humbly accept your station in life.


You live in a place of exile. This is not your true home. This is a trial of some sort, this world is supposed to suck. This life is not time to experience joy, happiness, or fulfillment. These are essentially the teachings of religion. This is crushing to the human psyche. In the Christian mind, having a messed up world with pain, misery, suffering, starvation and subjugation all over the place is a good day. This is status quo, guys. This is a good as it gets, and the most we could/should ever expect. This is exactly how religion desecrates our planet! Ask yourself: "What, exactly, is the Christian vision of a better world?" What does that look like in the Christian mind? I know the answer to that one: armageddon. The vision of the future for religion is complete destruction. There is no scenario in the Christian mind that includes making this world a worthy expression of humanity. Believers fail their species and planet in favor of seeking the favor of an imaginary friend.


What religions teach is fundamentally true on a few points: you live on a fallen world, you are a pawn on someone else's chessboard and complete destruction is the end result. The major difference is this is entirely a human enterprise. The world has fallen because of religion, because of humans dictating your reality more than trying to understand it. The religious have been subjugated. -But their world view is that they are pawns in a world not meant for them to completely understand... That this life is supposed to be wrought with hardship and misery... That your only salvation is death. They have no idea what's happened to them and they think the world should be this way. This "fallen" world, as I describe it, is nothing more than the terrible shape our world is in: collapsing ocean ecosystem (that continent sized pile of trash in the Pacific probably isn't helping), global warming, deforestation.


There are no redeeming qualities to religion. The communities that exist within religious circles are truly communities built around spirituality. Religion is a horrible expression of spirituality. The communities that could form around atheist spirituality have far greater potential than ones with deistic ties. Also, there is no reason to value the bible as a source of morality. The bible says a lot of crazy things about code of conduct. Do Christians follow them all? Why not? Because they did not gain your morality from the bible. They may have aligned your morality with the bible, picking and choosing what suited you best (just like we all do), but they did not inherit their morality from the bible -as if they would be a complete neanderthal without it. Any "high ground" associated with following the bible is utter crap. The only difference between atheists and believers is atheists access their morality and sense of humanity directly. We don't process it through a book of hate.*
[*You hear a little about how god loves you. You hear about how you better, damn well, love your god. Most of the bible is pestilence, war, rape, murder. All in all, its not a love story about humanity and existence. It's a depressing look into the darkest age of humanity. -Lots of hate.]


The Mayan Calendar needs it clock wound. The planet is in a mass hysteria because religion has kept us in a state of identity crisis for so long we can't even grasp the significance of it. I was shocked and amazed that there was such a big deal made out of this. What impact does a form of human time keeping make on the universe? I mean, is the fate of the universe, at least world, tied to a calendar of an ancient civilization? Humanity could not answer those questions. In a day and age when we have so much information about the properties of the universe, humanity couldn't seem to grasp the significance of a clock needing its spring wound. It's alright folks, just a new calendar, no new world necessary. That type of crap is a direct result of religion's influence. Humanity doesn't know what's what, or even what is really supposed to be. And with that arose a system that is not conducive to the longevity of any species, particularly our own! That whole situation seemed absurd to me but I can appreciate its origins through a religious perspective. For one, their world view has them searching for a dooms day scenario in the first place. For two, the religious view includes angels and demons and a whole assortment of phenomena not really well supported by science/demonstrable fact. The seriousness of how disconnected that can make some from the properties of reality is demonstrated in the fervor the calendar caused. I know a few people would freak out about such things no matter what but that event was more representative of mass hysteria and it is a direct function of religious teaching.


Examples of religion's power is everywhere, creationism in schools is an example. One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." -In a nation built specifically to isolate religion from governance. There are many examples in science. Big Bang Theory = Ex nihilo. -Modern cosmology supports the creation story in Genesis. The story of continent formation also comes directly from the bible. "Fractional Differentiation" is described as the process that gave us continents. That story came straight out of Genesis. The Archaic Crust Theory of our continents (found in the science section) is irrefutable but remains out of mainstream science because it contradicts the bible. I kid you not. Religion never stopped it's attack on science! I don't think they burn people any more but they do prevent research, curtail careers and make sure science tells us what the church wants us to hear. NGC 7603 is a prime example if this. That structure definitively refutes a premise the Big Bang theory relies upon for legitimacy. Scientists have lost telescope privileges, funding and have been reassigned because of voicing interest in researching that structure. We now have science telling us bible stories and not aligning with the dogma can cost good scientists their careers.


Religion is the foremost authority on teaching racism and hate. I concede it says things like love your neighbor but it says a lot more about smiting peoples and Gentiles are beneath you and so on. The bible places emphasis on group superiorities throughout it. It never comes out and tells you to treat other groups badly but the examples are so ubiquitous that it would be hard not to internalize that notion somehow. The implication this has on world view is profound. In spite of religion trying to argue against the point, the essence of the bible turns humanity away from believing in the brotherhood of all humans. It serves to perpetuate group separation and by doing so it keeps us isolated from another and further reliant on deity.


Reliance on deity is another issue. Religion wants your single most intimate relationship to be with god. This stifles humanity's progression. Rather that work things out among ourselves religion teaches us to appeal elsewhere. This is facet of world view is tragic on so many interpersonal and societal levels. We could have a whole discussion on the implications of this alone.


Time and time again religious individuals have told me things like: "We live on a fallen world." This all part of god's plan. We don't even have the capacity it hurt the Earth because it's god's design. All of these concepts are seriously detrimental to inspiration where it matters most. The religious essentially tell me the world should be this way. Now I know not all Christians are invested in those types of beliefs but even then, they're still dealing with a world view that gives some sort of justification for the way things are, because god did create it that way after all. Combine that with what we've already established about Christian world view and now we're looking at this: world is meant to be crap, perhaps we even deserve it (being the delinquents we are) and you're not supposed to focus your attention on this world anyway. I really have to question religion's capacity to inspire.




Perhaps the most tragic thing about religion is it squanders spirituality. Spirituality is the deep, even primal connection we have with our world/universe/existence. That feeling of elation, that tingle in your spine when you feel you connected on a fundamental level with something beyond humanity is spirituality. My spirituality is rich with awe, wonder, intrigue, delight, and curiosity. My connection to the natural world is something I feel more than know about. Knowing what a gifted species we are and how lucky we are to have this precious world as our home brings me intense delight every day. We may not be the center of the universe but we are among it's most honored. That's just plain cool. Go Earth, you rock! Throwing that all away to go follow a dark age cult who will make you bad about yourself seems like such a waste. Carl Sagan mentioned, "our species is young and curious and brave and shows much promise". The true tragedy is we're really not showing much of our promise right now. We are a bright and profoundly capable species. Improving upon all of our systems, social included, is part of our nature. Unfortunately, religion serves to keep us complacent. Religion has been observed to be the "elixir of the masses". I think that is exactly true. Rather than drawing upon our strengths and making this world a happy home for us all, religion has taken advantage of our weakness and redirected all of our hopes and dreams into an afterlife that has just as much relevance to existence as fore-life does [-nada, zip, ziltch... What ever "amnesia" believers experienced coming into this life will only get worse as they leave it. The limits of experience are sadly confined within conception and death.]


Atheist spirituality: you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again. I believe spirituality is the key to saving the world because of these types of teachings. Atheist spirituality teaches the kinship of all species, not just humanity. Its underlying teachings include humanity is gifted and beautiful. That we are capable. That our destiny is bright and our time here is precious. That this is our only home and we should take care of it. That all forms of life have value. That a healthy and happy humanity requires healthy and happy world/ecosystems... Spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. It can, has and does define the past, present and future of our being and domain. No other manifestation can make such an impact on our world because nothing else can inspire us like it can.


"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan


I look forward to getting further into the concept and implications of atheist spirituality and how it can inspire a better world.
 
Since you critisise religion so much, me being a Christian, can I have a chance to defend some of your attacks, and also to offer some criticism on your view? :D
 
Since you critisise religion so much, me being a Christian, can I have a chance to defend some of your attacks, and also to offer some criticism on your view? :D
But of course! I would be delighted to take a closer look at these things.
 
The fact is that religion is not the source of hatred or bigotry or the suppression of ideas. It's not the cause of wars; it's not the reason for intolerance of science. Humans are. Simply blaming religion for the world's woes is missing the bigger picture. Even if every trace of the current major religions was wiped out, we would see other cults and ideologies rising to take their place.

It's more important to understand why humanity is drawn to religion and why it can be a positive or negative influence in people's lives. We need to go beyond blame, it doesn't help anyone and worse it clouds the issue. It's little different than blaming drugs or pop culture for crime rates. It might feel good to have a scape goat to take responsibility but it will not result in a drop in crime.
 
The fact is that religion is not the source of hatred or bigotry or the suppression of ideas. It's not the cause of wars; it's not the reason for intolerance of science. Humans are. Simply blaming religion for the world's woes is missing the bigger picture. Even if every trace of the current major religions was wiped out, we would see other cults and ideologies rising to take their place.

It's more important to understand why humanity is drawn to religion and why it can be a positive or negative influence in people's lives. We need to go beyond blame, it doesn't help anyone and worse it clouds the issue. It's little different than blaming drugs or pop culture for crime rates. It might feel good to have a scape goat to take responsibility but it will not result in a drop in crime.

This is extremely well put! And is what I believe. We lose sight of the principals of religion vs. the institution of religion (which is governed my humans that might not actually be upholding the principals).
 
Hi Rift–
Once again, I discover that exploring the viewpoints of atheists is infinitely more interesting than doing that with most religious folks, including Christians. Atheists, particularly younger ones, intensely question their place in the universe and struggle to answer the same innate and agonizing questions that organized religion and philosophy have attempted to answer for millennia, “Who am I? Why am I here?”

Using your own belief system, you’ve answered those very questions in your last paragraph, which I will add, is a wonderful summation of your essay. “You're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely.” I find those statements refreshing, inspiring and full of hope.
Although we have different ways of seeing the world, I believe we have much in common. So much of what passes for debate between “The Religious” and “The Atheists” seems as much about the definition of terms as it does about fundamental beliefs and worldviews.

The first term that needs some examination is “atheist.” That’s one of those terms that carries a lot of power–for those who call themselves atheists and for those who consider themselves religious. I wish we could find another, more neutral, term that would allow us humans to have reasonable conversations about our relationship to the universe and each other without having to feel obligated to dash off to the most extreme pole and staunchly defend our respective beliefs. Christian preachers, writers and theologians are notorious for instinctively scooping up the “armor of God” at the very murmuring of the word, atheist. You know what? Self described atheists do the same thing toward religion. I’ve read Hitchens and Dawkins and the works of other atheist thinkers and they tend to pull up the most primitive, simplistic and bigoted beliefs expressed by so-called religious people and then beat them down using science, philosophy or general logic as their bludgeon. At the end of the discussion, the “religious” can walk away assured that atheists will either be denied the wonderful eternal bliss that is “heaven” or burn in “hell.” And atheists can be assured that the religious folks will most likely evaporate upon their last breath and bear the collective responsibility, if not guilt, for plundering the earth and heaping pain onto many of its inhabitants.

At its root, “a-theist” means “without (G)god.” Now it begs the question: Define (G)god. If a person’s definition is marked by being “without something”, we probably ought to have a good idea of what it is that they are without. Are they without a stern, authoritarian (G)god that sits on a throne “up” in heaven manipulating the moment-to-moment occurrences of the people? Then I’m with you, I’m an atheist. Are they without a happy, friendly, personal (G)god that they can walk hand-in-hand with and pour out their daily concerns and desires? Then you and I are spiritual brothers--I’m an atheist. Are atheists without a (G)god that serves as the ultimate judge, meting out rewards and punishments on that last day? Not me. I’m an atheist. Are they without the “clock winder?” A benevolent, but impotent force? Then I too, am an atheist.

In reality, I am NOT an atheist. I DO believe in (G)god. But I don’t believe in a (G)god that looks or behaves like any of the representations that I outlined which were revealed in a recent survey of Americans’ image of God. Like you, I am deeply spiritual. And I am also a devout Christian. If you are now tempted to “haul up the gates” and “defend the castle,” I would ask that you bear with me for a few more moments.

As I have attempted to define “a-theists” for what they are without, I’ll define myself as a Christian for what I am without. I am without a bible that is the inerrant word of (G)god and contains literal and unchanging truth for all time. Therefore, I am without “Creationism” and “Intelligent Design.” I am without a physical (G)god image that incorporates throne-sitting, judgment-decreeing, hand-holding and vengeance-meting. To me, these are attempts by some of us humans to answer, in a spiritual way, “Who am I and why am I here?” by looking up and assigning very human qualities to someone or some thing that is incomprehensible and ultimately unknowable. They go further to build a religion around that construct, not to increase knowledge or to better humanity, but to make it okay to not know.

That’s where religion sells humanity short. And short-changes religion in the process. To me, religion is a framework on which some of us hang our spirituality. But is a superstructure that cannot stand on its own. It’s a skeleton and without meaning in itself. It serves to hold up our spirituality and allows it to live and grow in a world filled with other humans. Unfortunately, many religious people make the skeleton the sole focus of their spirituality. Their belief in something “good” beyond them and their relationships to other people are defined by the skeleton, not the spirituality that is supported by it. When tempests arise and doubt and fear swirls about, they retreat into the skeleton and find comfort that it is withstanding the onslaught and therefore they are withstanding it as well. That’s where the worst in religion comes out–mistaking the structure and framework for the real thing. It is not. Any more than the timbers supporting the Taj Mahal are that great building itself.

Is it necessary to have a framework for one’s spirituality? I say yes. And this is where you and I meet as true friends. Your burning desire is to get “...further into the concept and implications of atheist spirituality and how it can inspire a better world.” As much as I honor and respect your spirituality, I believe it cannot accomplish its purpose without being put into action. And it cannot be put into action without something to give it shape and form so that it can move and create. Otherwise, it lies lifeless on the ground.

I want you to find that structure. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what you name it. Call it atheism. Call it pantheism. Or deism. Or call it nothing at all. If it is good, holds up humanity, and serves to better all things on earth, I will rejoice!

For me, my (G)god animates my spirituality and calls me to make it move in ways that serve mankind. For me, I must rehang it on the skeleton every day, readjust its form and re-stitch its tattered edges. I value the structure on which I lay my spirituality. I strive to understand it better. But I don’t worship it.

That is why I choose to be a Christian. When I sweep away all the gold-gilded, jewel-encrusted and lifeless skeletons that seem to dominate the landscape and serve as the stereotypical targets for atheist thinkers, I discover a sturdy, rough-hewn, indestructible framework which will not only bear my considerable doubts, insecurities and worst human desires, but serve to hold up my best intentions, desires and love for humanity. I believe that is what we are all seeking. I believe that is what we are all called to do with our spirituality. Whether we name it (G)god, Yahweh, Allah, Buddha, atheism, or a thousand other names we humans have created over time, if it is good, it is good.

In our own ways, as Christian and atheist, we have attempted, perhaps with some preliminary success, to answer those two important questions for ourselves, “Who am I? Why am I here?” I would use your joy-filled conclusion as the answer–not directed at myself, but toward others. “You're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely.”


A note to my more fundamentalist Christian brothers and sisters: You may find some of my assertions jarring. As I wrote this response, I was bringing to mind specific scriptural references and theological viewpoints which are actually quite mainstream but perhaps a bit “left of center.” I’m not a big fan of “proof texting.”
 
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The fact is that religion is not the source of hatred or bigotry or the suppression of ideas. It's not the cause of wars; it's not the reason for intolerance of science. Humans are. Simply blaming religion for the world's woes is missing the bigger picture. Even if every trace of the current major religions was wiped out, we would see other cults and ideologies rising to take their place.

It's more important to understand why humanity is drawn to religion and why it can be a positive or negative influence in people's lives. We need to go beyond blame, it doesn't help anyone and worse it clouds the issue. It's little different than blaming drugs or pop culture for crime rates. It might feel good to have a scape goat to take responsibility but it will not result in a drop in crime.
I think humanity is drawn to spirituality. We are drawn to expressions of spirituality because we do yearn for identity. This is an effort to cross compare the value of teachings of mainstream, religious expression of spirituality with those of atheist spirituality. Spirituality is a wonderful thing but not all teachings are good ones. I believe religious teaching are negative in intent and outcome. It's not about blame, it's about making a better world. The teachings of atheist spirituality are inherently conducive to doing just that. I fully intend to demonstrate that point in this thread.
 
Atheism is your belief system just as religion or spirituality is to another.
Why should yours be any more correct than theirs?
What we need is to take a step back and have some respect and tolerance for everyone no matter their personal beliefs.
If you want to believe there is no God how is that different from believing that there is one?
I agree with @Jacobi that it is human nature that is to blame for the strife and hatred in the world more so than religion.
Yes, religion has been the basis for many nasty things throughout history, but just as many nasty things have been done without religion playing a part.
It is when someone tries to hold power over another group, gain land, etc. when atrocities and intolerance are committed...they use, and have used religion as a scapegoat to commit such acts.
If religion didn’t exist at all, they would still find a reason and justification in their minds.
 
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Hi Rift—
And this is where you and I meet as true friends.
Indeed! Above all else, you are clearly a very spiritual being. Our paths are not so different. “haul up the gates” and “defend the castle”? No sir, this is an occasion for red carpet and refreshments.

Thank you for honoring my perspective. And wow, I certainly have a lot of appreciation for yours. Pardon me while I collect my thoughts and produce a response worthy of your input.
 
Religion has saved many people's lives and has been used for good in many ways but it has also been used as a tool to control people just like any belief system can be used by people who want power over others. [MENTION=5667]Jacobi[/MENTION] is right, it is not religion itself that causes the harm but the people who use it as a tool for their own ends. Under the right circumstances atheism could be used as a tool for control.
 
At one time I would have said I was an atheist. The problem I have with atheism is the definition itself as it often denotes a lack of belief in a particular God, such as the Christian God. It has been extended to include a lack of belief in any god. I just don't see the point in defining myself this way because it doesn't accurately describe what I do feel or believe. I can best be described as agnostic, apatheist, but my own spirituality is built up from feeling an interconnectedness with other living things and feeling a part of something greater than I am. Feeling like a speck of dust in this vast, amazing universe humbles me. So much so that I can't see the point of following any one religion because they don't seem to be the truth to me. I relate a lot to pantheism and my spirituality is keeping in mind that I am a part of the universe. Labelling myself as an atheist only limits how other people understand my own perceptions. It limits my imagination and behavior.

I agree that one could define themselves as atheist and could be spiritual at the same time. I think it takes an open mind and the ability to think abstractly to make it work, but it can be done. For instance, Daniel Dennett, one of the original four horsemen of atheism accepts what he described as having "spiritual moments." I really think that as a species our brains have a natural tendency to assign imagined causes to things we do not understand or cannot see. Most people readily accept the existence of God because our brains make it easy to do so. That is why humans worship and other animals don't. They don't have the capacity to think like we do. This is normal and there is probably some distribution of people that over extend causes to supernatural agents and those that don't at all. Atheism falls in the latter. I remember watching an interview with Christopher Hitchens in which the interviewer asked if he maybe was predisposed to atheism because his brain wasn't wired like most believers' brains are. I think it raises an interesting point. In human populations, a minority will naturally tend toward atheism, a minority tend toward the opposite end of the spectrum, and most fall somewhere in between.

I'm also a big fan of Carl Sagan, having read a few of his books.
 
Atheism is your belief system just as religion or spirituality is to another.
Why should yours be any more correct than theirs?
What we need is to take a step back and have some respect and tolerance for everyone no matter their personal beliefs.
If you want to believe there is no God how is that different from believing that there is one?
I agree with @Jacobi that it is human nature that is to blame for the strife and hatred in the world more so than religion.
Yes, religion has been the basis for many nasty things throughout history, but just as many nasty things have been done without religion playing a part.
It is when someone tries to hold power over another group, gain land, etc. when atrocities and intolerance are committed...they use, and have used religion as a scapegoat to commit such acts.
If religion didn’t exist at all, they would still find a reason and justification in their minds.
World view makes a huge impact on humanity's psychology. It literally defines our realm of possibilities. I don't care to argue if there is or isn't a god. I care to talk about spiritual paths and how they impact our world view... And subsequently, our world.

I mentioned I was working to publish this collection of thoughts. My dream is no less than reformatting society into a worthy expression of humanity. The vast majority of humanity are good, decent people who would rather empower their fellow human than bring them down for their own gain. Why do we live this way? The demeanor of this world we have built for ourselves displays traits far, far beneath the character of humanity. -precisely within the character of the bible and underlying teachings of religion!

I'm working to articulate atheist spirituality. -to produce a solid framework so people can find their own, at any rate. I'm not doing it to attack your beliefs, per se. I'm doing it to subvert indoctrination. The spiritual inevitably seek out the teachings of other expressions of spirituality in their own quest for understanding. Atheism has no voice and is largely viewed as the path of spiritual denial. I have a dream of changing that. I sincerely believe the merits of atheist spirituality within identity, world view and relation to the universe will attract followers. I have no doubt these merits, which have barely been touched upon here, will inspire humanity to to build a world we'd be happy to call home. I am satisfied with whatever you wish to believe. But I'm going to do my best to make sure religion doesn't have another generation. If you follow this discussion long enough, you may find it's the right thing to do.
 
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Good thread. Sounds more like a clarafication on why abrahamic religions have done more harm than good. You should also consider studying vedic and eastern spirituality; it broadens one's view of the universe much wider with strong emphasis on the human connection and it's spirit to the cosmos. In my opinion abrahamic and even atheist and new age spirituality teaches how we can all connect to God source one way or another; but I think the real knowledge resides in the ancient practices that emphasizes the connection of the human physical body and it's connection to Earth and the Cosmos at large. Once you study all these aspects and understand how they interconnect; you come to see beyond religious categorization and labeling and move towards a unified view. The biggest realization is that everything we experiences are just different ways to experience and know God. A Catholic or Christian person's connection to God is not less valid because the individual chose to experience God through specific religion; because it always leads to the same goal - which to realize that we are an extension of God. The actual institutions that run these large religions are usually the culprits that have hidden agendas and use their power for personal gains.

Shamanic traditions, native american folklore, indian hindu texts, ancient chinese i Ching configurations are give fascinating and much more comprehensive perspective on the universe and how we humans connect. I think when you focus on just western or abrahamic traditions you are missing the energy and earth component which is very important for human development. Same way science is just another tool to understand the universe and ultimately God; our connection to earth and understanding the spiritual connection gives an individual a better understanding and modern science in the quantum physics have been coming out with continual research on our energy and spirit connection to the universe. Its al very fascinating but I also think perhaps INFJs can see the interweaving web that connects all the separate wisdom and knowledge and see it as a unified view because it really just makes sense.
 
I support your view and your right to express it and share it with everyone but I'm not sure where you have taken your information about religions because you are making huge generalizations that do not honestly represent all religions and everybody involved in religion. As much as I do agree with you that religion has caused great harm I have also been witness to how religion can genuinily do a lot of good for people. I think your view is fine and valid but I do object to the idea that you seem to be presenting that you would like to impose your view on humanity because you believe it is the 'right' one. The comments below seem to be to be just like the ones we hear from religion, which is exactly what the problem is with a lot of religion, the idea that one belief system is above another and wanting to impose it on others:

My dream is no less than reformatting society into a worthy expression of humanity. The vast majority of humanity are good, decent people who would rather empower their fellow human than bring them down for their own gain. Why do we live this way? The demeanor of this world we have built for ourselves displays traits far, far beneath the character of humanity.
 
@ rift zone I consider myself a spiritual atheist as well. Though I am pretty sure I just said it in less words.
 
[MENTION=884]solongotgon[/MENTION],


I've had a spiritual relationship with the universe since youth. It took me a while to define it as such. The definition I use for spirituality I wrote because nothing else out there was able to properly treat my atheist perspective. I assure you, I am no stranger to how humanity expresses their spirituality. -including eastern traditions. I've spent time in temples of all sorts... Churches, synagogues, mosques, fell in love with a pagan... I deliberately leave eastern traditions out of this conversation. They do not impose deity. It's more a relationship to the universe directly kind of thing. Or one where "gods" are more representative of archetypes, and explore facets of our being through them. It's an entirely different approach, a healthier one in my opinion. Still, I don't think they have access to all the merits of atheist spirituality with their approach, so they might be missing out a little. At least they're not blatantly damaging.


I'd say INTJs are pretty good with interconnectedness too. We just utilize a different data set. =)



I support your view and your right to express it and share it with everyone but I'm not sure where you have taken your information about religions because you are making huge generalizations that do not honestly represent all religions and everybody involved in religion. As much as I do agree with you that religion has caused great harm I have also been witness to how religion can genuinily do a lot of good for people. I think your view is fine and valid but I do object to the idea that you seem to be presenting that you would like to impose your view on humanity because you believe it is the 'right' one. The comments below seem to be to be just like the ones we hear from religion, which is exactly what the problem is with a lot of religion, the idea that one belief system is above another and wanting to impose it on others:

Thank you very much. My apologies for coming off as if I have a more righteous path. I do not wish to treat you or your views in that manner. I have the utmost respect for both. I do have a concern however. And a belief, a dream. Please forgive me. This is why publishing it in a volume makes sense, there's a fair amount to consider that's not reflected in the thread yet. Developing a thesis is easier to do in a book. I just wanted to share my beliefs about the subject matter. I feel the volume will stand on its own and no one will ever have to say its a better path. I intend to impose nothing on no one. I intend to flesh out a spiritual path. What humanity does with it is up to them. I hope you can find it in your heart to distinguish some of the bickering you mention from an attempt do demonstrate a sound argument and philosophy.
 
[MENTION=884]solongotgon[/MENTION],


Thank you very much. My apologies for coming off as if I have a more righteous path. I do not wish to treat you or your views in that manner. I have the utmost respect for both. I do have a concern however. And a belief, a dream. Please forgive me. This is why publishing it in a volume makes sense, there's a fair amount to consider that's not reflected in the thread yet. Developing a thesis is easier to do in a book. I just wanted to share my beliefs about the subject matter. I feel the volume will stand on its own and no one will ever have to say its a better path. I intend to impose nothing on no one. I intend to flesh out a spiritual path. What humanity does with it is up to them. I hope you can find it in your heart to distinguish some of the bickering you mention from an attempt do demonstrate a sound argument and philosophy.

I do get the feeling that your intentions are good and you have some good points but I believe that you will be more effective in getting your point accross if you come off as less derogatory towards all religion and concentrate more on the valid reasons for criticizing religion and the positives in your view of a better alternative.
 
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I do get the feeling that your intentions are good and you have some good points but I believe that you will be more effective in getting your point accross if you come off as less derogatory towards all religion and concentrate more on the valid reasons for criticizing religion and the positives in your view of a better alternative.
Of course. I will aspire to do just that. Please forgive my INTJ nature if I don't always succeed. People are meant to be treated with respect and kindness in my world. Ideas, concepts and faulty systems are meant to be destroyed, only the strong survive.
 
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Hi Rift—
Hi ya!

I've been around for a few decades! Though I've never lost that child like passion for existence and discovery.

Indeed. My spirituality is well developed. I do spend more time pondering what the answers mean, rather than trying to produce answers. I'm delighted you have a concept of my world view. Thank you for pointing it out so eloquently.

Oh yes, I imagine we will need to spend a moment or two with semantics. Specially since I have no fear of utilizing "religious" terms to describe atheist concepts. Like spirituality, I'm sure "divinity", "soul" and others will surface eventually.

Atheist is quite a term, isn't it. There's a long history of implications with that one. We have arguments picking apart the linguistics of the term, searching for meaning there...

I embrace the term. And I pay absolutely no attention to the haze that surrounds it. Connotations come and go. I imagine the stigma associated with the term will evaporate quickly as the spiritual path of atheism is better understood. If the society that established the term for type of belief structure did not subscribe to gods then their term would be in the affirmative. Say they coined the term "bla" to describe a universe without deity. "Abla" then, would likely wind up as the perspective that includes gods. Not the mention the prefix "a" means opposite, not bad. Needless to say, those types of arguments don't impress me much.

Ya, not much is ever gained by arguing about the existence of god.

Is your god sentient? Does it think? Have will? Effect it's will? That has huge implications in my view. I believe there's something "more" out there too. How we frame it is not always as different as some Christians think it is. Same with the natural/scientific pantheists... Pagans and eastern traditions as well!

That’s where religion sells humanity short. And short-changes religion in the process. To me, religion is a framework on which some of us hang our spirituality. But is a superstructure that cannot stand on its own. It’s a skeleton and without meaning in itself. It serves to hold up our spirituality and allows it to live and grow in a world filled with other humans. Unfortunately, many religious people make the skeleton the sole focus of their spirituality. Their belief in something “good” beyond them and their relationships to other people are defined by the skeleton, not the spirituality that is supported by it. When tempests arise and doubt and fear swirls about, they retreat into the skeleton and find comfort that it is withstanding the onslaught and therefore they are withstanding it as well. That’s where the worst in religion comes out—mistaking the structure and framework for the real thing. It is not. Any more than the timbers supporting the Taj Mahal are that great building itself.

That is incredibly deep. I'm still processing it. I fully agree, this is where religious expressions of spirituality fail. It is just a skeleton. God loves you, period. Even worse, you should expect the tempests, and the storm will pass at death. In contrast, there's empowerment and direction embedded in atheist spirituality. It teaches the universe is indifferent to our existence... So a day in the life of the universe could very well send tempests our way. But we are the most capable species known to exist. We have our selves, our ingenuity, and our lovely home to rely upon. If there is anything out there that can take some shit and still stand proud and tall, it's you! Now handle your $#!^ and go frolic with the stars from whence you came.

Is it necessary to have a framework for one’s spirituality? I say yes. And this is where you and I meet as true friends. Your burning desire is to get “...further into the concept and implications of atheist spirituality and how it can inspire a better world.” As much as I honor and respect your spirituality, I believe it cannot accomplish its purpose without being put into action. And it cannot be put into action without something to give it shape and form so that it can move and create. Otherwise, it lies lifeless on the ground.
Isn't that the truth! My dream (publishing project) starts with spirituality because I feel it will supply the necessary inspiration and direction to build a better world. That's just one volume. The rest of it deals with all of our social systems. I'm dissecting corporations, transportation, education, agriculture, energy, natural resources, voting, governance, education, equality... I have an opinion about every human social system, every approach we take to everything. My effort there will be focusing on where our systems fail us. What better looks like is up for debate but I'll try to shed some light on possibilities as well. I, in fact, do have a plan of action that I intend to execute.

For me, my (G)god animates my spirituality and calls me to make it move in ways that serve mankind. For me, I must rehang it on the skeleton every day, readjust its form and re-stitch its tattered edges. I value the structure on which I lay my spirituality. I strive to understand it better. But I don’t worship it.
I dare say you're more like me than most Christians.

In our own ways, as Christian and atheist, we have attempted, perhaps with some preliminary success, to answer those two important questions for ourselves, “Who am I? Why am I here?” I would use your joy-filled conclusion as the answer—not directed at myself, but toward others. “You're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely.”
Then who are you? If I may ask? Not directed at yourself? Why not? Surely no one could ever tell you otherwise. I submit to you, it's the truth. And your being knows it to be so. =)


@La Sagna
"I have also been witness to how religion can genuinily do a lot of good for people."

I've seen those things too! And I have to say I'm not certain religion is the source. I see spiritual communities doing good things. More grass roots efforts, supported by localized regions. I can't say I ever saw religion doing anything really wonderful. Religion is the richest and most powerful entity on the face of the planet. The Roman Catholic Church alone could feed, clothe, and provide medicine for every needy person on this planet without hurting their bank account much! -probably still show surplus income.

Even more wondrous would be processing our spirituality through a frame work that teaches us to draw upon our strengths together rather than privately appeal to third parties. Impossible means contrary to the laws of physics. We can do anything! We do not need to live this way. Honestly, the way we approach existence is reprehensible from an atheistic point of view. Fixing this world will quickly become a spiritual quest... Again, please tell me you know Carl Sagan. If you have any understanding of what I mention about his spirituality then you are witnessing the strongest force in solar system. Do you have any idea what would happen if we gave that to the world?
 
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Hello everyone! I was having a conversation with [MENTION=10252]say what[/MENTION] behind the scenes and sharing it with a bigger audience came up. Well, I recognize the infinite wisdom of INFJs so, here it is! I'm really sorry about the logistical issues involved with trying to share an existing conversation here. I'm going to do my best to backtrack and cover the points that brought us to our current points. I imagine I'll miss something. If you see any gaps in the discussion you'd like to see filled in, please let me know.


***Warning!*** This conversation is about my personal beliefs and why I'm working to publish them. They are not common beliefs and I don't suspect everyone will embrace them. Controversial may be a good term for them, they may provoke strong feelings in some. None the less, say what and I were sharing our views about these things openly, honestly, and with mutual courtesy. I hope you'll join in with the same spirit.


*****Double Warning!***** I oppose religion, strongly. I have harsh criticisms of religion's value in this post/thread. I feel I have good reason to oppose religion and if you give me a chance to explain, I'd be happy to share my thoughts with you. Whether or not you ultimately agree with me, I assure you, you will find my heart is in the right place. You see, this thread is ultimately about spirituality and humanity realizing more of its potential. I feel the two are closely interconnected.


I identify as being a very spiritual being. I have very strong opinions about spirituality and a strong personal relationship with it. I am very atheist. I know atheism is not commonly viewed as a spiritual path but I'm under the impression it's the purest, truest, most fulfilling, and most empowering expression of spirituality there is. I think Abrahamic religions amount to subjugation. I think atheist spirituality is the key to saving the world. I know that last one was quite a jump. It is why I'm working to publish this collection of thoughts. If you give me a few moments of your time, I'll demonstrate how to inspire humanity like never before.


This all started with a deep concern about the shape of our planet. Things don't seem right in this world and I wanted to know why that was. (I'm a science geek, figuring out the nature of complex systems that interact non-linearly is one of my favorite sports!) So I dissected everything I saw about this world and this is what I came up with: all of the environmental, political reform, and humanitarian groups that exist are dealing with peripheral symptoms of more fundamental issues. Even as wonderful as they are and as lost as we'd be without them, they're not dealing with the real problems so their successes will always amount to minor victories. Making the world a better place requires addressing the root causes. I'm believe I've traced these fundamental issues back to their source and I have a dream about addressing them and bringing about a better era for humanity and the ecosystems that sustain us.


Are you familiar with Carl Sagan? (promise I'll make sense of all this) I hope you are familiar with him because I'd like to introduce an uncommon expression of spirituality. YouTubing a couple of clips from his old PBS series "Cosmos" would be a good way to see a bit of what I explain here. That man was in love. He loved existence, he loved sentience, and he loved the universe that gave us those gifts! He was deeply passionate about his relationship with the universe. He was a scientist. He was atheist. He was one of the world's most spiritual men. That love he felt for existence and the universe is spirituality at its best.


Spirituality is the endeavor to understand and identify one's self with their origin and relation to the universe. Spirituality is a fundamental human trait. We want to know who we are. We want to know where we came from. We want to know what we're doing here. We even want to know what our destiny holds for us. These types of questions are the essence of spirituality. The answers are our identity.


Atheist spirituality looks to science for direction. After all, our origin and relation to the universe exists solely within the realm of the sciences. The natural world is our origin and relation to the universe. Physics, chemistry and biology do a good job of explaining many of the questions we ask but it's not complete. Spirituality is not exactly an interdisciplinary science, for lack of a better term, it's a feeling. We're not just looking for some answers, were looking for ourselves! We are looking for things deeply related to our being and we often feel it deeply when our spirituality is engaged. Aligning ourselves with, getting in touch with what we make of our spirituality may be one of the deepest, primal and rewarding experiences we could have.


The tragedy of modern atheism is even atheists think you need deity to have spirituality. Granted, the universe is rather indifferent to our existence. Irrelevant, there's no need for a pat on the back from the universe to have spirituality either. In fact, the whole notion is insulting to true spirituality. We have an atmosphere that assumes the deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is disassociated from us. That at best, there's some sort of alliance we can form. That's ridiculous! We are some of the deepest, most amazing and wondrous parts of the universe!


Who are we? We are living beings. Of all the dull and mundane things we could have been, we are alive! We are the chemical equivalent of a chunk of ice and a few rocks. Yet, we are very different. Life is one of the most marvelous forms matter can take. Arranging chemicals in different ways will yield different properties. The properties of life are astounding. We truly are more than the sum of our parts. Matter comes in many different and wonderful forms: galaxies and stellar nurseries, nebula and planets... The list goes on an on. There is beauty, wonder and awe to be found everywhere in the universe. Still, life sets a new standard for intrinsic beauty and value. It is some of the coolest stuff in the universe. You! Yes, you are one of the most awesome and precious forms of matter that exist in the cosmos. The deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is not isolated from us, it is us!


I like to tell myself: "If making the world a better place was an easy thing to accomplish, it probably would have been done already." The problems of this world are very complex but that doesn't mean their causes can't be known or addressed. As I dug deeper and deeper into the problems of the world I started to notice a trend. It seemed the problems of the world stemmed from our identity. World view seems to play a huge role in the condition of this planet. I regret to report the world view I'm referring to comes from religion. What I found was the problems of this world exactly mirrored the underlying teachings of Abrahamic Religions. Religion keeps humanity from realizing more of its potential. I hope the religious can forgive me for criticizing their belief structure. Attacking religion was never a choice I wanted to make. My dream is to make the world a better place. This is why I feel religions stand in the way...




"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law–a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." -Jesus Of Nazareth (Matthew 10:34-37)


I guess questioning religion is of bad taste and poor judgement, perhaps it even displays lack of character. Who told you that? -Religion. Religion is a supreme strategist and it does not operate for the benefit of humanity. Religion pops into your head, what do you associate with it? God, is my guess. Religion is the richest and most powerful entity on the planet. I assure you, they didn't get all that power by praying to their god. When I think of religion, I think of impact it makes on humanity. It's not a good look for humanity. Also, when I think religion, I think of the Abrahamic ones. Every time I say religion here I mean Judaism, Christianity, Islam and their ilk.


You live on one of the most precious and remarkable places in the entire universe. Religion would have you believe this is a place of exile which is meant to suck. That this isn't your true home. That this is some bullshit existence you need to suffer through. Religions will take the deepest parts of you, your dreams, your aspirations, your spirituality and have you lock it away for your entire life. In place they teach you to quietly appeal to a phantasm for your woes. They teach you're a subordinate and to be accepting of the sad state of affairs that surrounds you. Largely believing that is EXACTLY why humanity lives far, far below it's potential. Religion will break it down to you gently and slowly, with love and compassion, but they will eventually have you believing a set of circumstances that doesn't give humanity a lot of inspiration. In fact, the deistic world view is crushing to the human desire to search and understand and further refine all our systems. The deistic world view is engineered to keep status quo. Technology progresses but humanity, our social systems largely do not because of this.


In its simplest terms: Why are we here? -to get to somewhere else. Already we have a world view that directs attention and investment away from this world.


Religions are designed to hold you hostage in your own mind. The concept of "original sin" is firmly established in many faiths. They assert that you are in the wrong simply because you were born, that you have a debt to pay just because you're alive. They imply your very existence is somehow tainted and you must seek salvation for the crime of being. This is absurd. So what if some chick took an apple that was on private property? We didn't do that. We are not guilty of that crime. Religion has a lot of nerve trying to pin that on us. I am guilty of having knowledge. Abandoning knowledge is what that story is about. It teaches you to feel guilty for knowing. You are not supposed to know. You are not supposed to question. You are supposed to obey: sit back, shut up and give the church your money... Try not to think about it too much. Lets be very clear about this, no god will ever need your money! It's a "god". What could it possibly need from you? It would either be ineffectual or it would have serious emotional issues if it truly needed anything from you. And what is humanity supposed to gain from this? What does this teach us about our place in the universe? Thou art little bitches, is kinda what it sounds like to me. The impression it leaves is somewhat harsh and derogatory no matter how you look at it. The way I see it, that leaves us with: not only do we have a world view focused elsewhere, now we're delinquents of some sort...but there's potential for redemption if you do what the church says. Think of how this compares to the atheist perspective: We are the coolest things in the universe! This is in stark contrast to being subordinates in need of reprimand.




Religions purposefully try to devalue your being! They do all they can to demean your existence. They want you to believe that you are somehow in error and need to be corrected. They create an ailment in you, allegedly, only they have the cure for. Being delinquents who need to redeem themselves is only the start. The abuses to your being only get worse as you get further involved with their teachings. They tell you more things to make you feel bad about yourself. More propaganda to make their "cure" more appealing. They will force you into ideologies and behaviors that are contrary to your being; sexuality being an example. The internal conflict that subsequently arises by forcing idealisms that are contrary to our nature assures minor dysfunctionalities develop in a lot of the indoctrinated! Before long, they sincerely need their psychological crutch of a god because a fair amount of their value, their identity has been stripped from them. For some, they truly stand with god or not at all. -much to religions happiness because it's goal.


God is not a lesson on spirituality, god is a lesson on obedience. It is engineered to establish a hierarchy of authority. You are told of wonderful things but you are taught you are a subordinate who needs to humbly accept your station in life.


You live in a place of exile. This is not your true home. This is a trial of some sort, this world is supposed to suck. This life is not time to experience joy, happiness, or fulfillment. These are essentially the teachings of religion. This is crushing to the human psyche. In the Christian mind, having a messed up world with pain, misery, suffering, starvation and subjugation all over the place is a good day. This is status quo, guys. This is a good as it gets, and the most we could/should ever expect. This is exactly how religion desecrates our planet! Ask yourself: "What, exactly, is the Christian vision of a better world?" What does that look like in the Christian mind? I know the answer to that one: armageddon. The vision of the future for religion is complete destruction. There is no scenario in the Christian mind that includes making this world a worthy expression of humanity. Believers fail their species and planet in favor of seeking the favor of an imaginary friend.


What religions teach is fundamentally true on a few points: you live on a fallen world, you are a pawn on someone else's chessboard and complete destruction is the end result. The major difference is this is entirely a human enterprise. The world has fallen because of religion, because of humans dictating your reality more than trying to understand it. The religious have been subjugated. -But their world view is that they are pawns in a world not meant for them to completely understand... That this life is supposed to be wrought with hardship and misery... That your only salvation is death. They have no idea what's happened to them and they think the world should be this way. This "fallen" world, as I describe it, is nothing more than the terrible shape our world is in: collapsing ocean ecosystem (that continent sized pile of trash in the Pacific probably isn't helping), global warming, deforestation.


There are no redeeming qualities to religion. The communities that exist within religious circles are truly communities built around spirituality. Religion is a horrible expression of spirituality. The communities that could form around atheist spirituality have far greater potential than ones with deistic ties. Also, there is no reason to value the bible as a source of morality. The bible says a lot of crazy things about code of conduct. Do Christians follow them all? Why not? Because they did not gain your morality from the bible. They may have aligned your morality with the bible, picking and choosing what suited you best (just like we all do), but they did not inherit their morality from the bible -as if they would be a complete neanderthal without it. Any "high ground" associated with following the bible is utter crap. The only difference between atheists and believers is atheists access their morality and sense of humanity directly. We don't process it through a book of hate.*
[*You hear a little about how god loves you. You hear about how you better, damn well, love your god. Most of the bible is pestilence, war, rape, murder. All in all, its not a love story about humanity and existence. It's a depressing look into the darkest age of humanity. -Lots of hate.]


The Mayan Calendar needs it clock wound. The planet is in a mass hysteria because religion has kept us in a state of identity crisis for so long we can't even grasp the significance of it. I was shocked and amazed that there was such a big deal made out of this. What impact does a form of human time keeping make on the universe? I mean, is the fate of the universe, at least world, tied to a calendar of an ancient civilization? Humanity could not answer those questions. In a day and age when we have so much information about the properties of the universe, humanity couldn't seem to grasp the significance of a clock needing its spring wound. It's alright folks, just a new calendar, no new world necessary. That type of crap is a direct result of religion's influence. Humanity doesn't know what's what, or even what is really supposed to be. And with that arose a system that is not conducive to the longevity of any species, particularly our own! That whole situation seemed absurd to me but I can appreciate its origins through a religious perspective. For one, their world view has them searching for a dooms day scenario in the first place. For two, the religious view includes angels and demons and a whole assortment of phenomena not really well supported by science/demonstrable fact. The seriousness of how disconnected that can make some from the properties of reality is demonstrated in the fervor the calendar caused. I know a few people would freak out about such things no matter what but that event was more representative of mass hysteria and it is a direct function of religious teaching.


Examples of religion's power is everywhere, creationism in schools is an example. One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." -In a nation built specifically to isolate religion from governance. There are many examples in science. Big Bang Theory = Ex nihilo. -Modern cosmology supports the creation story in Genesis. The story of continent formation also comes directly from the bible. "Fractional Differentiation" is described as the process that gave us continents. That story came straight out of Genesis. The Archaic Crust Theory of our continents (found in the science section) is irrefutable but remains out of mainstream science because it contradicts the bible. I kid you not. Religion never stopped it's attack on science! I don't think they burn people any more but they do prevent research, curtail careers and make sure science tells us what the church wants us to hear. NGC 7603 is a prime example if this. That structure definitively refutes a premise the Big Bang theory relies upon for legitimacy. Scientists have lost telescope privileges, funding and have been reassigned because of voicing interest in researching that structure. We now have science telling us bible stories and not aligning with the dogma can cost good scientists their careers.


Religion is the foremost authority on teaching racism and hate. I concede it says things like love your neighbor but it says a lot more about smiting peoples and Gentiles are beneath you and so on. The bible places emphasis on group superiorities throughout it. It never comes out and tells you to treat other groups badly but the examples are so ubiquitous that it would be hard not to internalize that notion somehow. The implication this has on world view is profound. In spite of religion trying to argue against the point, the essence of the bible turns humanity away from believing in the brotherhood of all humans. It serves to perpetuate group separation and by doing so it keeps us isolated from another and further reliant on deity.


Reliance on deity is another issue. Religion wants your single most intimate relationship to be with god. This stifles humanity's progression. Rather that work things out among ourselves religion teaches us to appeal elsewhere. This is facet of world view is tragic on so many interpersonal and societal levels. We could have a whole discussion on the implications of this alone.


Time and time again religious individuals have told me things like: "We live on a fallen world." This all part of god's plan. We don't even have the capacity it hurt the Earth because it's god's design. All of these concepts are seriously detrimental to inspiration where it matters most. The religious essentially tell me the world should be this way. Now I know not all Christians are invested in those types of beliefs but even then, they're still dealing with a world view that gives some sort of justification for the way things are, because god did create it that way after all. Combine that with what we've already established about Christian world view and now we're looking at this: world is meant to be crap, perhaps we even deserve it (being the delinquents we are) and you're not supposed to focus your attention on this world anyway. I really have to question religion's capacity to inspire.




Perhaps the most tragic thing about religion is it squanders spirituality. Spirituality is the deep, even primal connection we have with our world/universe/existence. That feeling of elation, that tingle in your spine when you feel you connected on a fundamental level with something beyond humanity is spirituality. My spirituality is rich with awe, wonder, intrigue, delight, and curiosity. My connection to the natural world is something I feel more than know about. Knowing what a gifted species we are and how lucky we are to have this precious world as our home brings me intense delight every day. We may not be the center of the universe but we are among it's most honored. That's just plain cool. Go Earth, you rock! Throwing that all away to go follow a dark age cult who will make you bad about yourself seems like such a waste. Carl Sagan mentioned, "our species is young and curious and brave and shows much promise". The true tragedy is we're really not showing much of our promise right now. We are a bright and profoundly capable species. Improving upon all of our systems, social included, is part of our nature. Unfortunately, religion serves to keep us complacent. Religion has been observed to be the "elixir of the masses". I think that is exactly true. Rather than drawing upon our strengths and making this world a happy home for us all, religion has taken advantage of our weakness and redirected all of our hopes and dreams into an afterlife that has just as much relevance to existence as fore-life does [-nada, zip, ziltch... What ever "amnesia" believers experienced coming into this life will only get worse as they leave it. The limits of experience are sadly confined within conception and death.]


Atheist spirituality: you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again. I believe spirituality is the key to saving the world because of these types of teachings. Atheist spirituality teaches the kinship of all species, not just humanity. Its underlying teachings include humanity is gifted and beautiful. That we are capable. That our destiny is bright and our time here is precious. That this is our only home and we should take care of it. That all forms of life have value. That a healthy and happy humanity requires healthy and happy world/ecosystems... Spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. It can, has and does define the past, present and future of our being and domain. No other manifestation can make such an impact on our world because nothing else can inspire us like it can.


"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan


I look forward to getting further into the concept and implications of atheist spirituality and how it can inspire a better world.

Notice that I I outlined/bolded the word "better" in your post. This word is very very important.
Its the first and the most important problem I see in your view, aside many others.

But why?

"Better" implies some values...not just values, but objective values. It also implies a standard of values.

When you say "better", it implies that there are some things that are good and some things that are bad, or there are some things that are better than other, or some things that are worse than other, in a objective standard.

If it is subjective, it would mean it doesn't make any sense to say that some things are actually better than other things. It would only mean that some things are better, but only in your view.

Even if this "better" or "worse" would be the same to all the people, that won't mean that there is anythng really or intrinsically better to anything. For example, to some aliens in a far corner of the Universe, their "better" would be something else, maybe the opposite of what we call "better".

So, my honest question is this: given that you say you are aiming for a better world, which implies a standard of what is good and what is a bad, a set of objective values, what is the foundation of your value system??? What is the core that makes these things really be "better", "best", "worse" ?

Because the way I see things, atheism doesn't have any good grounds for values. In atheism, anything is the same. A better world would have the same weight as a canker on my forehead, or a nasty pain. So, how do I know that some things have greater value than other, that some things are more important than other?