Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World: | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World:

hmm... @muir ! My final answer... Did I win? =) Hi ya, muir! I'm accusing you of posting a video on wealth distribution. Pretty sure it was you, anyway, thanks to whomever!

There are a couple of videos about wealth distribution that have been circulating around the forum and have been posted by multiple posters...i have at different times posted at least two videos that are specifically relating to that but possibly more
 
The fundamentalist Christian regime that has taken over the US government in recent times scares me.
Yeah, me too. A prime example is "religio-political" consultant, Ralph Reed who, a few years back, had amassed a gigantic mailing list of fundamentalist Christians willing to donate their money to their particular causes (biases). So when American Indians wanted to build a gambling casino, Reed went to his base and decried it, urging his followers to contact their lawmakers. Then he went to the Indians and extracted millions of dollars from them as a "client" to tame the base he had riled up to allow the casino to go through. I believe Reed is still active but deeper underground. There are many, many more working under the radar now, and thanks to Citizens United and our corporately owned Supreme Court, they are more effective than ever.

I'm articulating atheist spirituality. I'm placing into language the relationship we all have to the universe.
I'm eager to see how you do that. In imagining it myself, I always get tripped up on the atheist term as it seems to define the concept for what it is not, rather than what it is. Maybe that's my Christian spirituality coming to the fore. I've toyed with "trans-spiritualism" or "pan-spiritualism" in an effort to get my head around your ideas. It seems to help. I automatically try to create the "human system" in my mind that would animate a concept. I can envision it with a series of essays and meet-ups and guided discussions. Politically, I think of "The Federalist Papers,' which, was read individually but also served as a small group teaching tool to explain concept of an odd hybrid called a democratic republic. I think of L. Ron Hubbard who wrote and spoke about his concept of Dienetics and Scientology. Or the Dalai Lama who writes and traverses the globe, not promoting Buddhism but peace.

I think there are successful models to emulate. I would think that the challenge would be to articulate key concepts that are accessible and actionable that can grow exponentially without being distorted into something evil, which is a danger of any human system with power. (e.g., religion, political systems, climate science!)
 
I'm eager to see how you do that. In imagining it myself, I always get tripped up on the atheist term as it seems to define the concept for what it is not, rather than what it is. Maybe that's my Christian spirituality coming to the fore. I've toyed with "trans-spiritualism" or "pan-spiritualism" in an effort to get my head around your ideas. It seems to help. I automatically try to create the "human system" in my mind that would animate a concept. I can envision it with a series of essays and meet-ups and guided discussions. Politically, I think of "The Federalist Papers,' which, was read individually but also served as a small group teaching tool to explain concept of an odd hybrid called a democratic republic. I think of L. Ron Hubbard who wrote and spoke about his concept of Dienetics and Scientology. Or the Dalai Lama who writes and traverses the globe, not promoting Buddhism but peace.

I think there are successful models to emulate. I would think that the challenge would be to articulate key concepts that are accessible and actionable that can grow exponentially without being distorted into something evil, which is a danger of any human system with power. (e.g., religion, political systems, climate science!)

I guess part of it is completely removing dualist connotations to spirituality. Getting it out of some intangible realm and into our own is a natural consequence of the approach. As far as the approach goes, a glimpse of it has already been shown. As I mentioned in the original post, atheist spirituality looks to science for direction. That direction amounts to simply gaining a perspective on our origin and relation to the universe. From there, just like all spiritual paths do, it's a matter of applying a bit of philosophy and meaning to it. Most atheists don't seem to do that. They look into the universe and have appreciation of how remarkable and wonderful life is, we are, but they're faced with the universe is rather indifferent to our existence. And they stop there. And I completely understand it. Widespread misconceptions about spirituality and atheism have been floating around for millennia. Thanks to it, thinking atheism is the path of spiritual denial is common even for atheists.


Life is the most intrinsically valuable substance in existence. No other conglomeration of matter comes close to bearing such wonderful properties. Sentience is yet another gift. Those could be established as objective claims. Thus our inherent value is beyond obvious. And there it is, a quick example of how this is getting done. Some scientific facts with a splash of philosophy.


Tracing our origins back to long before the Cambrian Explosion is very rich ground for atheist spirituality to gain values from. Not only does it demonstrate unity of humanity but shows the kinship of all life. Apply some philosophy to that, along with our nature as social species and perhaps a couple other traits, and we can derive how wrong deforestation is!


Basically, those core questions for humanity: who are we? Where did we come from? What are we doing here? Where are we going? -I'm having science answer those as completely as they can then I'm demonstrating what that means to a species who's deeply invested in spirituality.
 
Alright, kiddo. Make my day. (The Rift requested that I continue our debate here, so that I can play to his perverse masochism and humiliate him in public forum.) Present whatever argument you would like me to address and I'll gladly tear right through it. Be concise; don't obfuscate by presenting a crapton of abstract ideas at once or rambling forth a massive TL;DR wall of text.
 
Alright, kiddo. Make my day. (The Rift requested that I continue our debate here, so that I can play to his perverse masochism and humiliate him in public forum.) Present whatever argument you would like me to address and I'll gladly tear right through it. Be concise; don't obfuscate by presenting a crapton of abstract ideas at once or rambling forth a massive TL;DR wall of text.
There are three pages of argument here. They remain (legitimately) uncontested. You are in the midsts of a thread you have not read. I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with the subject matter before you make a fool out of yourself.
 
I've said it before but I think properly understood the Jewish/Abrahamic tradition as clarified by Maimonides that God is non-corporeal should be practically sufficient to satisfy the criticisms which atheists bring of theism or religion and that whole question should be considered as "done, move on". Erich Fromm hit upon this with his book You Shall Be Gods, which was his attempt to reproduce with the old testament what he thought Fuerbach had achieved with his book The Essence of Christianity.

That's the difference between atheism as it has existed from time to time and atheism as it exists presently, in the past its been able to give credit were it is due to religious traditions, I actually think the "new atheism" and some of its worse examples have arisen from some of its key proponents struggle to repress their own religious inclinations, there's been whispers about this particularly in relation to Dawkins, and also that they have been quite particular to represent atheism at its best versus religion at its worst.
 
If you think I care to suffer three pages of your sophomoric pseudo-intellectual masturbation, you are mistaken. You were either attempting to argue specific points with me, or you were simply spouting blanket statements about "le re[LIE]gion" to alleviate your massive case of sore sphincter. Unless you would like to confirm the latter suspicion, I suggest that you present, in a concise and coherent fashion, the specific points that you would like me to address. Otherwise, I will not waste my time with you and simply leave you with the suggestion that you go back to r/atheism with your fellow belligerent whiners.
 
I've said it before but I think properly understood the Jewish/Abrahamic tradition as clarified by Maimonides that God is non-corporeal should be practically sufficient to satisfy the criticisms which atheists bring of theism or religion and that whole question should be considered as "done, move on". Erich Fromm hit upon this with his book You Shall Be Gods, which was his attempt to reproduce with the old testament what he thought Fuerbach had achieved with his book The Essence of Christianity.

That's the difference between atheism as it has existed from time to time and atheism as it exists presently, in the past its been able to give credit were it is due to religious traditions, I actually think the "new atheism" and some of its worse examples have arisen from some of its key proponents struggle to repress their own religious inclinations, there's been whispers about this particularly in relation to Dawkins, and also that they have been quite particular to represent atheism at its best versus religion at its worst.
Hmm... Did you read the thread? "New atheism" is about to take on a whole new meaning.
 
If you think I care to suffer three pages of your sophomoric pseudo-intellectual masturbation, you are mistaken. You were either attempting to argue specific points with me, or you were simply spouting blanket statements about "le re[LIE]gion" to alleviate your massive case of sore sphincter. Unless you would like to confirm the latter suspicion, I suggest that you present, in a concise and coherent fashion, the specific points that you would like me to address. Otherwise, I will not waste my time with you and simply leave you with the suggestion that you go back to r/atheism with your fellow belligerent whiners.
So making a fool out of yourself is the route you choose? Very well. Read this... Then humble yourself before I do it for you.

I identify as being a very spiritual being. I have very strong opinions about spirituality and a strong personal relationship with it. I am very atheist. I know atheism is not commonly viewed as a spiritual path but I'm under the impression it's the purest, truest, most fulfilling, and most empowering expression of spirituality there is. I think Abrahamic religions amount to subjugation. I think atheist spirituality is the key to saving the world. I know that last one was quite a jump. It is why I'm working to publish this collection of thoughts. If you give me a few moments of your time, I'll demonstrate how to inspire humanity like never before.


This all started with a deep concern about the shape of our planet. Things don't seem right in this world and I wanted to know why that was. (I'm a science geek, figuring out the nature of complex systems that interact non-linearly is one of my favorite sports!) So I dissected everything I saw about this world and this is what I came up with: all of the environmental, political reform, and humanitarian groups that exist are dealing with peripheral symptoms of more fundamental issues. Even as wonderful as they are and as lost as we'd be without them, they're not dealing with the real problems so their successes will always amount to minor victories. Making the world a better place requires addressing the root causes. I'm believe I've traced these fundamental issues back to their source and I have a dream about addressing them and bringing about a better era for humanity and the ecosystems that sustain us.


Are you familiar with Carl Sagan? (promise I'll make sense of all this) I hope you are familiar with him because I'd like to introduce an uncommon expression of spirituality. YouTubing a couple of clips from his old PBS series "Cosmos" would be a good way to see a bit of what I explain here. That man was in love. He loved existence, he loved sentience, and he loved the universe that gave us those gifts! He was deeply passionate about his relationship with the universe. He was a scientist. He was atheist. He was one of the world's most spiritual men. That love he felt for existence and the universe is spirituality at its best.


Spirituality is the endeavor to understand and identify one's self with their origin and relation to the universe. Spirituality is a fundamental human trait. We want to know who we are. We want to know where we came from. We want to know what we're doing here. We even want to know what our destiny holds for us. These types of questions are the essence of spirituality. The answers are our identity.


Atheist spirituality looks to science for direction. After all, our origin and relation to the universe exists solely within the realm of the sciences. The natural world is our origin and relation to the universe. Physics, chemistry and biology do a good job of explaining many of the questions we ask but it's not complete. Spirituality is not exactly an interdisciplinary science, for lack of a better term, it's a feeling. We're not just looking for some answers, were looking for ourselves! We are looking for things deeply related to our being and we often feel it deeply when our spirituality is engaged. Aligning ourselves with, getting in touch with what we make of our spirituality may be one of the deepest, primal and rewarding experiences we could have.


The tragedy of modern atheism is even atheists think you need deity to have spirituality. Granted, the universe is rather indifferent to our existence. Irrelevant, there's no need for a pat on the back from the universe to have spirituality either. In fact, the whole notion is insulting to true spirituality. We have an atmosphere that assumes the deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is disassociated from us. That at best, there's some sort of alliance we can form. That's ridiculous! We are some of the deepest, most amazing and wondrous parts of the universe!


Who are we? We are living beings. Of all the dull and mundane things we could have been, we are alive! We are the chemical equivalent of a chunk of ice and a few rocks. Yet, we are very different. Life is one of the most marvelous forms matter can take. Arranging chemicals in different ways will yield different properties. The properties of life are astounding. We truly are more than the sum of our parts. Matter comes in many different and wonderful forms: galaxies and stellar nurseries, nebula and planets... The list goes on an on. There is beauty, wonder and awe to be found everywhere in the universe. Still, life sets a new standard for intrinsic beauty and value. It is some of the coolest stuff in the universe. You! Yes, you are one of the most awesome and precious forms of matter that exist in the cosmos. The deepest and most wondrous part of the universe is not isolated from us, it is us!


I like to tell myself: "If making the world a better place was an easy thing to accomplish, it probably would have been done already." The problems of this world are very complex but that doesn't mean their causes can't be known or addressed. As I dug deeper and deeper into the problems of the world I started to notice a trend. It seemed the problems of the world stemmed from our identity. World view seems to play a huge role in the condition of this planet. I regret to report the world view I'm referring to comes from religion. What I found was the problems of this world exactly mirrored the underlying teachings of Abrahamic Religions. Religion keeps humanity from realizing more of its potential. I hope the religious can forgive me for criticizing their belief structure. Attacking religion was never a choice I wanted to make. My dream is to make the world a better place. This is why I feel religions stand in the way...


"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." -Jesus Of Nazareth (Matthew 10:34-37)


I guess questioning religion is of bad taste and poor judgement, perhaps it even displays lack of character. Who told you that? -Religion. Religion is a supreme strategist and it does not operate for the benefit of humanity. Religion pops into your head, what do you associate with it? God, is my guess. Religion is the richest and most powerful entity on the planet. I assure you, they didn't get all that power by praying to their god. When I think of religion, I think of impact it makes on humanity. It's not a good look for humanity. Also, when I think religion, I think of the Abrahamic ones. Every time I say religion here I mean Judaism, Christianity, Islam and their ilk.


You live on one of the most precious and remarkable places in the entire universe. Religion would have you believe this is a place of exile which is meant to suck. That this isn't your true home. That this is some bullshit existence you need to suffer through. Religions will take the deepest parts of you, your dreams, your aspirations, your spirituality and have you lock it away for your entire life. In place they teach you to quietly appeal to a phantasm for your woes. They teach you're a subordinate and to be accepting of the sad state of affairs that surrounds you. Largely believing that is EXACTLY why humanity lives far, far below it's potential. Religion will break it down to you gently and slowly, with love and compassion, but they will eventually have you believing a set of circumstances that doesn't give humanity a lot of inspiration. In fact, the deistic world view is crushing to the human desire to search and understand and further refine all our systems. The deistic world view is engineered to keep status quo. Technology progresses but humanity, our social systems largely do not because of this.


In its simplest terms: Why are we here? -to get to somewhere else. Already we have a world view that directs attention and investment away from this world.


Religions are designed to hold you hostage in your own mind. The concept of "original sin" is firmly established in many faiths. They assert that you are in the wrong simply because you were born, that you have a debt to pay just because you're alive. They imply your very existence is somehow tainted and you must seek salvation for the crime of being. This is absurd. So what if some chick took an apple that was on private property? We didn't do that. We are not guilty of that crime. Religion has a lot of nerve trying to pin that on us. I am guilty of having knowledge. Abandoning knowledge is what that story is about. It teaches you to feel guilty for knowing. You are not supposed to know. You are not supposed to question. You are supposed to obey: sit back, shut up and give the church your money... Try not to think about it too much. Lets be very clear about this, no god will ever need your money! It's a "god". What could it possibly need from you? It would either be ineffectual or it would have serious emotional issues if it truly needed anything from you. And what is humanity supposed to gain from this? What does this teach us about our place in the universe? Thou art little bitches, is kinda what it sounds like to me. The impression it leaves is somewhat harsh and derogatory no matter how you look at it. The way I see it, that leaves us with: not only do we have a world view focused elsewhere, now we're delinquents of some sort...but there's potential for redemption if you do what the church says. Think of how this compares to the atheist perspective: We are the coolest things in the universe! This is in stark contrast to being subordinates in need of reprimand.


Religions purposefully try to devalue your being! They do all they can to demean your existence. They want you to believe that you are somehow in error and need to be corrected. They create an ailment in you, allegedly, only they have the cure for. Being delinquents who need to redeem themselves is only the start. The abuses to your being only get worse as you get further involved with their teachings. They tell you more things to make you feel bad about yourself. More propaganda to make their "cure" more appealing. They will force you into ideologies and behaviors that are contrary to your being; sexuality being an example. The internal conflict that subsequently arises by forcing idealisms that are contrary to our nature assures minor dysfunctionalities develop in a lot of the indoctrinated! Before long, they sincerely need their psychological crutch of a god because a fair amount of their value, their identity has been stripped from them. For some, they truly stand with god or not at all. -much to religions happiness because it's goal.


God is not a lesson on spirituality, god is a lesson on obedience. It is engineered to establish a hierarchy of authority. You are told of wonderful things but you are taught you are a subordinate who needs to humbly accept your station in life.


You live in a place of exile. This is not your true home. This is a trial of some sort, this world is supposed to suck. This life is not time to experience joy, happiness, or fulfillment. These are essentially the teachings of religion. This is crushing to the human psyche. In the Christian mind, having a messed up world with pain, misery, suffering, starvation and subjugation all over the place is a good day. This is status quo, guys. This is a good as it gets, and the most we could/should ever expect. This is exactly how religion desecrates our planet! Ask yourself: "What, exactly, is the Christian vision of a better world?" What does that look like in the Christian mind? I know the answer to that one: armageddon. The vision of the future for religion is complete destruction. There is no scenario in the Christian mind that includes making this world a worthy expression of humanity. Believers fail their species and planet in favor of seeking the favor of an imaginary friend.


What religions teach is fundamentally true on a few points: you live on a fallen world, you are a pawn on someone else's chessboard and complete destruction is the end result. The major difference is this is entirely a human enterprise. The world has fallen because of religion, because of humans dictating your reality more than trying to understand it. The religious have been subjugated. -But their world view is that they are pawns in a world not meant for them to completely understand... That this life is supposed to be wrought with hardship and misery... That your only salvation is death. They have no idea what's happened to them and they think the world should be this way. This "fallen" world, as I describe it, is nothing more than the terrible shape our world is in: collapsing ocean ecosystem (that continent sized pile of trash in the Pacific probably isn't helping), global warming, deforestation.


There are no redeeming qualities to religion. The communities that exist within religious circles are truly communities built around spirituality. Religion is a horrible expression of spirituality. The communities that could form around atheist spirituality have far greater potential than ones with deistic ties. Also, there is no reason to value the bible as a source of morality. The bible says a lot of crazy things about code of conduct. Do Christians follow them all? Why not? Because they did not gain your morality from the bible. They may have aligned your morality with the bible, picking and choosing what suited you best (just like we all do), but they did not inherit their morality from the bible -as if they would be a complete neanderthal without it. Any "high ground" associated with following the bible is utter crap. The only difference between atheists and believers is atheists access their morality and sense of humanity directly. We don't process it through a book of hate.*
[*You hear a little about how god loves you. You hear about how you better, damn well, love your god. Most of the bible is pestilence, war, rape, murder. All in all, its not a love story about humanity and existence. It's a depressing look into the darkest age of humanity. -Lots of hate.]


The Mayan Calendar needs it clock wound. The planet is in a mass hysteria because religion has kept us in a state of identity crisis for so long we can't even grasp the significance of it. I was shocked and amazed that there was such a big deal made out of this. What impact does a form of human time keeping make on the universe? I mean, is the fate of the universe, at least world, tied to a calendar of an ancient civilization? Humanity could not answer those questions. In a day and age when we have so much information about the properties of the universe, humanity couldn't seem to grasp the significance of a clock needing its spring wound. It's alright folks, just a new calendar, no new world necessary. That type of crap is a direct result of religion's influence. Humanity doesn't know what's what, or even what is really supposed to be. And with that arose a system that is not conducive to the longevity of any species, particularly our own! That whole situation seemed absurd to me but I can appreciate its origins through a religious perspective. For one, their world view has them searching for a dooms day scenario in the first place. For two, the religious view includes angels and demons and a whole assortment of phenomena not really well supported by science/demonstrable fact. The seriousness of how disconnected that can make some from the properties of reality is demonstrated in the fervor the calendar caused. I know a few people would freak out about such things no matter what but that event was more representative of mass hysteria and it is a direct function of religious teaching.


Examples of religion's power is everywhere, creationism in schools is an example. One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." -In a nation built specifically to isolate religion from governance. There are many examples in science. Big Bang Theory = Ex nihilo. -Modern cosmology supports the creation story in Genesis. The story of continent formation also comes directly from the bible. "Fractional Differentiation" is described as the process that gave us continents. That story came straight out of Genesis. The Archaic Crust Theory of our continents (found in the science section) is irrefutable but remains out of mainstream science because it contradicts the bible. I kid you not. Religion never stopped it's attack on science! I don't think they burn people any more but they do prevent research, curtail careers and make sure science tells us what the church wants us to hear. NGC 7603 is a prime example if this. That structure definitively refutes a premise the Big Bang theory relies upon for legitimacy. Scientists have lost telescope privileges, funding and have been reassigned because of voicing interest in researching that structure. We now have science telling us bible stories and not aligning with the dogma can cost good scientists their careers.


Religion is the foremost authority on teaching racism and hate. I concede it says things like love your neighbor but it says a lot more about smiting peoples and Gentiles are beneath you and so on. The bible places emphasis on group superiorities throughout it. It never comes out and tells you to treat other groups badly but the examples are so ubiquitous that it would be hard not to internalize that notion somehow. The implication this has on world view is profound. In spite of religion trying to argue against the point, the essence of the bible turns humanity away from believing in the brotherhood of all humans. It serves to perpetuate group separation and by doing so it keeps us isolated from another and further reliant on deity.


Reliance on deity is another issue. Religion wants your single most intimate relationship to be with god. This stifles humanity's progression. Rather that work things out among ourselves religion teaches us to appeal elsewhere. This is facet of world view is tragic on so many interpersonal and societal levels. We could have a whole discussion on the implications of this alone.


Time and time again religious individuals have told me things like: "We live on a fallen world." This all part of god's plan. We don't even have the capacity it hurt the Earth because it's god's design. All of these concepts are seriously detrimental to inspiration where it matters most. The religious essentially tell me the world should be this way. Now I know not all Christians are invested in those types of beliefs but even then, they're still dealing with a world view that gives some sort of justification for the way things are, because god did create it that way after all. Combine that with what we've already established about Christian world view and now we're looking at this: world is meant to be crap, perhaps we even deserve it (being the delinquents we are) and you're not supposed to focus your attention on this world anyway. I really have to question religion's capacity to inspire.


Perhaps the most tragic thing about religion is it squanders spirituality. Spirituality is the deep, even primal connection we have with our world/universe/existence. That feeling of elation, that tingle in your spine when you feel you connected on a fundamental level with something beyond humanity is spirituality. My spirituality is rich with awe, wonder, intrigue, delight, and curiosity. My connection to the natural world is something I feel more than know about. Knowing what a gifted species we are and how lucky we are to have this precious world as our home brings me intense delight every day. We may not be the center of the universe but we are among it's most honored. That's just plain cool. Go Earth, you rock! Throwing that all away to go follow a dark age cult who will make you bad about yourself seems like such a waste. Carl Sagan mentioned, "our species is young and curious and brave and shows much promise". The true tragedy is we're really not showing much of our promise right now. We are a bright and profoundly capable species. Improving upon all of our systems, social included, is part of our nature. Unfortunately, religion serves to keep us complacent. Religion has been observed to be the "elixir of the masses". I think that is exactly true. Rather than drawing upon our strengths and making this world a happy home for us all, religion has taken advantage of our weakness and redirected all of our hopes and dreams into an afterlife that has just as much relevance to existence as fore-life does [-nada, zip, ziltch... What ever "amnesia" believers experienced coming into this life will only get worse as they leave it. The limits of experience are sadly confined within conception and death.]


Atheist spirituality: you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again. I believe spirituality is the key to saving the world because of these types of teachings. Atheist spirituality teaches the kinship of all species, not just humanity. Its underlying teachings include humanity is gifted and beautiful. That we are capable. That our destiny is bright and our time here is precious. That this is our only home and we should take care of it. That all forms of life have value. That a healthy and happy humanity requires healthy and happy world/ecosystems... Spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. It can, has and does define the past, present and future of our being and domain. No other manifestation can make such an impact on our world because nothing else can inspire us like it can.


"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan
 
Ahh, yes, your sophomoric, pseudo-intellectual, presumptuous, self-congratulatory essay here is fraught with narcissism. Sheldon effing Cooper would tell you to get over yourself, kid. You fail to make a compelling case for atheism based on its own merits, but instead rely on snarl word-laden blanket statements concerning "religion," ignoring the vast diversity and complexity of what religious persons actually believe. That alone provides credence that your entire argument hinges upon an "appeal to ridicule" fallacy.

Also, several of your statements concerning religion are just flat-out wrong. First off, the only religion I know of which teaches that the earth is an undesirable place of exile is Gnosticism, which very, very few practice today (or have for centuries). Christianity teaches that human beings bear a responsibility to care for the environment and all that inhabit it (what is meant by "stewardship of the earth"), and plainly rejects the notion that the earth is undesirable to inhabit, which has been rejected as heresy since the earliest days of the religion. Buddhism stresses the importance of a cooperative relationship between human beings, animals and the environment. In Islam, nature is considered a reflection of truth that ought not be unnecessarily damaged.

These are only cursory examples of how your analysis on religion is not based on education about religion, but your own preconceived disdain for it. Thus, your argument leans on an uninformed premise, as well as an "appeal to adverse consequences" (if religion does not encourage a spirituality that I consider positive, then it must be wrong).
 
These are only cursory examples
Indeed! Because you are in no position to refute anything I said. And you know it!!! Rather, you demonstrate what I explained to you before: "The believers of the world are largely incapable of examining the validity of their beilefs. You don't exercise the logic and reason centers of your brain when faced with opposing views. Your religion exists in more primitive areas of the brain that is subject only to instinct. Your inclination is violently fight against anything contrary with out any form of legitimate justification." You have done just that. Your violent opposition is incapable of addressing any point made here so your only recourse is to mock me. Must really piss you off to know you cannot burn me at the stake anymore.

Your entire response betrays it's pathetic nature. You bitch and moan about me. Then you ramble on about what Christianity, and Islam are... And then you walk away as if you accomplished something. You may be happy with your little outburst but you look like an ankle biter to every one else. I have already explained exactly what Christianity, Judaism and Islam are. They are subjugation. They are the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity. If you care to argue against any point made in this thread, be my guest. I'd like to see any abrahamic religion assert itself as being worth a shit. But don't fuck with me. You are out of your league; all you'll find there is further frustration.
 
You god will get resigned back to myth and humanity will rejoice because of it. Thumbs down this! Go on record for defying the best thing that has ever happened to humanity! That would be awesome!

"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan.

It's fortunate someone knows what spirituality really is.

(That's right Angel, you can bite me!)
 
You god will get resigned back to myth and humanity will rejoice because of it. Thumbs down this! Go on record for defying the best thing that has ever happened to humanity! That would be awesome!

"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan.

It's fortunate someone knows what spirituality really is.

(That's right Angel, you can bite me!)

You God? What?

I suppose a quote from Sagan and a bit of a rage quit will do if you're not fit for a discussion at the moment.
 
You God? What?

I suppose a quote from Sagan and a bit of a rage quit will do if you're not fit for a discussion at the moment.

*your god... I'm not the most adept typist... My text often has errors. That was one of them. Sorry about that.

That was't directed at you. I'm having a pissing contest with a couple people... (Yes, mine is bigger.)

Sorry about that! Please forgive me. I don't mean to any direct hostility toward you. But the ankle biters of the world will quickly learn to find easier prey. I only asked if you read the thread because you lost me in your original comment. I had a hard time placing that into context with the existing discussion. Could you rephrase for me? I would be delighted to address any points you have.
 
"New atheism" It's not how I think about the situation but having a bunch of spiritual atheists all over the place is certainly something new. That's what this thread is about: spirituality's purest and most empowering form, atheism.
 
*your god... I'm not the most adept typist... My text often has errors. That was one of them. Sorry about that.

That was't directed at you. I'm having a pissing contest with a couple people... (Yes, mine is bigger.)

Sorry about that! Please forgive me. I don't mean to any direct hostility toward you. But the ankle biters of the world will quickly learn to find easier prey. I only asked if you read the thread because you lost me in your original comment. I had a hard time placing that into context with the existing discussion. Could you rephrase for me? I would be delighted to address any points you have.

It was a reply to the OP.
 
"New atheism" It's not how I think about the situation but having a bunch of spiritual atheists all over the place is certainly something new. That's what this thread is about: spirituality's purest and most empowering form, atheism.

:D I dont really think that's correct, although I'm not an atheist.

I think this is related to the whole development in which athiest pundits were refering to themselves as naturalists or different schools of philosophical thought.

To be honest I reckon that with the full passage of time the needs from which religion springs will resurface and athiests attempts to encourage people to repress it will falter and fail, then there'll be some sort of rennaisance in the religious thinking that's being dismissed wholesale, and pretty foolishly I believe, at present.
 
It was a reply to the OP.
Okay. Now I take it as being one philosophy, one approach to dealing with this subject matter. I find the approach outlined here to be rather distinct. I'm honestly not too concerned with the philosophies of old... They have led us here. They have gotten us this far. What's presented here is the next step.
 
Okay. Now I take it as being one philosophy, one approach to dealing with this subject matter. I find the approach outlined here to be rather distinct. I'm honestly not too concerned with the philosophies of old... They have led us here. They have gotten us this far. What's presented here is the next step.

I think that's a mistake to be honest but to each their own.