SOUL

[BrokenDaniel]

The original point of contention was that the soul can influence the body. That is it can control us/influence us and we would not have autonomy without it. And that it carries our thoughts and personality. I tried to outline the fact that it would be highly unlikely for such a connection to exist because of physical laws. That doesn't rule out the soul existing. That doesn't rule out it being a physical substitute for our soul in this world. But to say it has distinct properties related to us seems to be reaching quite a bit. Yoga, breathing techniques, meditating, and even psychedelics are all physical things that can help us experience a different form of "consciousness". Whether our actions or even the soul influences us just seem to be ways to give accountability and are used in many religions when speaking about the afterlife. Example: The two better be connected because how can you punish my soul for something my body did? There are many metaphysical and existential questions to take into consideration here as well.

But why the need to separate both?
Physicality can be seen as a good way to reach to an ecstatic experience of the dionisiac drunkenness of the cosmos, or god, or whatever you wanna call it, or self-punishment through physical suffering and the same ecstatic experience of watching something more powerful than ourselves takes prescence . That's my point. I know it sounds hyperbolic, but there are many sources about that in history you know.

 

[Solongo]

For me a possibility is anything that can likely occur or be the case. The soul and body can exist, but the possibility of them being intimately connected like you see is very low because of the laws of the universe.

I have taken many personality tests which have typed me as an INFJ.

I disagree. The body and the soul is intimately connected. To deny this would mean to deny our intuition; which is the language of the soul. The quick intuitive impulses are sent forth from the soul as "gut feelings" or unexplainable urge to follow a certain path without consulting the logical conscious mind; the intuition is able to bypass the ego/conscious mind to create impressions in the brain; that's why the impulses are quick messages and not long drawn out thought processes which characterize the conscious mind. Once the impressions are felt we are able to completely make sense and decode what the message was meant. From there on you can change the physical state of your body. Hence meditation is the most useful tool in connecting the mind, spirit and body into union and the energy used to do this is completely immaterial.

As for the universal laws; which laws are you referring to?

 

[flower]

The soul is your core. It's your spirit and who you really are.

 

[Solongo]

The soul is your core. It's your spirit and who you really are.

+1 need there be more to it than this?

 

[Eventhorizon]

I dont really understand the concept of a difference between spirit and soul.

 

[sprinkles]

Soul is why people like Sly and the Family Stone.

Spirit is why the music is the same and memorable even though the band fell apart.

 

[ODyssey]

I dont really understand the concept of a difference between spirit and soul.

I would say they are interrelated if not exactly the same. If I had to guess.. the spirit is the expressions of the soul/essence that connects to it's purpose. While, the soul is the core in which the spirit thrives.

So, every human that is alive possesses a soul. While not everyone is spiritually alive, they can be spiritually dead.

The spirit allows an intimate relationship with the truth― some would say God or purpose. I think we can basically say that soul is life that contains necessities such as personality and sense of morality or conscience.. while having a strong spirit would be 'living'..exploring, giving, contributing.. depends on the spirit of the person really. *The spirit is the part where we recieve our gut feelings?

I'm not entirely convinced, but this is what it feels like.

 

[Skarekrow]

The original point of contention was that the soul can influence the body. That is it can control us/influence us and we would not have autonomy without it. And that it carries our thoughts and personality. I tried to outline the fact that it would be highly unlikely for such a connection to exist because of physical laws. That doesn't rule out the soul existing. That doesn't rule out it being a physical substitute for our soul in this world. But to say it has distinct properties related to us seems to be reaching quite a bit. Yoga, breathing techniques, meditating, and even psychedelics are all physical things that can help us experience a different form of "consciousness". Whether our actions or even the soul influences us just seem to be ways to give accountability and are used in many religions when speaking about the afterlife. Example: The two better be connected because how can you punish my soul for something my body did? There are many metaphysical and existential questions to take into consideration here as well.

Is the brain the producer of consciousness or a “soul” or is it the receiver and decoder?
Yes, they know that they can poke the brain here and this or that will happen…just as they test a circuit on a TV.
Yes they know they can even cut those circuits and it will result in loss of picture in the TV and maybe blindness in the human brain.
But it still doesn’t prove the brain is the producer of a soul anymore than a TV produces it’s own material.
Just because we don’t have a way to measure it yet doesn’t mean a soul isn’t there…there is some substantial evidence that we do.

 

[sprinkles]

Is the brain the producer of consciousness or a “soul” or is it the receiver and decoder?
Yes, they know that they can poke the brain here and this or that will happen…just as they test a circuit on a TV.
Yes they know they can even cut those circuits and it will result in loss of picture in the TV and maybe blindness in the human brain.
But it still doesn’t prove the brain is the producer of a soul anymore than a TV produces it’s own material.
Just because we don’t have a way to measure it yet doesn’t mean a soul isn’t there…there is some substantial evidence that we do.

Maybe it's both and neither.

I mean energy is not a computer program but it is still what travels around in the CPU. You start to understand this when you build a Minecraft redstone computer and can see how something goes from being a clock cycle - which is just a voltage bouncing up and down from an oscillator - to being 3D printing data or whatever.

 

[Solongo]

I dont really understand the concept of a difference between spirit and soul.

Spirit is the way the soul wishes to manifest. It can also be likened to the amount of energetic force your soul uses to get it's essence across to the external environment. Those who are unafraid has the strongest force of energy to manifest what they soul wishes to share with the world. Lack of connection to the soul makes it harder to show our spirit and makes it harder to understand the unique attributes the soul wishes to reveal and develop.

 

[Yatagarasu]

@BrokenDaniel, @solongotgon, @Skarekrow, @ODyssey, and @flower

I can agree with a statement like what @flower mentioned above. It doesn't require the intimate relationship between the two like some have mentioned. If you are going to claim there is a correlation between the two you have to show proof. Everything material can be affected by other material objects. Claims that something immaterial can influence something material break logical laws as well as Laws of Thermodynamics. Saying souls do not follow those laws is not justification for believing they have that connection because ANY claim could be justified using that logic. Example--> Me: I see a rainbow colored unicorn that is invisible to everyone except myself. You: What!? You see an invisible unicorn??? That doesn't make any sense. Do you have any proof? Me: No, but I don't need any! Logic doesn't apply to invisible unicorns.

In short, you can believe it if you wish but I see no use of adding that logic contradiction. You can just as easily believe the two are separate but still a part of your "identity" without assuming anything further.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Odd. Having enough issue trying to find soul only to have spirit thrown in. Something I ha e never thought about before.

 

[Solongo]

@BrokenDaniel, @solongotgon, @Skarekrow, @ODyssey, and @flower

I can agree with a statement like what @flower mentioned above. It doesn't require the intimate relationship between the two like some have mentioned. If you are going to claim there is a correlation between the two you have to show proof. Everything material can be affected by other material objects. Claims that something immaterial can influence something material break logical laws as well as Laws of Thermodynamics. Saying souls do not follow those laws is not justification for believing they have that connection because ANY claim could be justified using that logic. Example--> Me: I see a rainbow colored unicorn that is invisible to everyone except myself. You: What!? You see an invisible unicorn??? That doesn't make any sense. Do you have any proof? Me: No, but I don't need any! Logic doesn't apply to invisible unicorns.

In short, you can believe it if you wish but I see no use of adding that logic contradiction. You can just as easily believe the two are separate but still a part of your "identity" without assuming anything further.

You want proof of my soul?

it's wierd to me that people cannot feel their inner soul. so they think it does not exist or something external or unexplainable. and that it needs to be subjected to the scientific method and journalized in the scientific articles by some well known doctor for it to be true. only then they will believe that who they are in their core is only an energetic particle called "soul" with a consciousness that drives their life force. i just don't get how something so basic about humanity cannot be accepted. if you cannot communicate with your own soul on a fundamental level then you cease to have the ability to connect with others on a real level. intellectualizing through science will never come close to the actual experience to waking up to one's soul.

 

[ODyssey]

@BrokenDaniel, @solongotgon, @Skarekrow, @ODyssey, and @flower

I can agree with a statement like what @flower mentioned above. It doesn't require the intimate relationship between the two like some have mentioned. If you are going to claim there is a correlation between the two you have to show proof. Everything material can be affected by other material objects. Claims that something immaterial can influence something material break logical laws as well as Laws of Thermodynamics. Saying souls do not follow those laws is not justification for believing they have that connection because ANY claim could be justified using that logic. Example--> Me: I see a rainbow colored unicorn that is invisible to everyone except myself. You: What!? You see an invisible unicorn??? That doesn't make any sense. Do you have any proof? Me: No, but I don't need any! Logic doesn't apply to invisible unicorns.

In short, you can believe it if you wish but I see no use of adding that logic contradiction. You can just as easily believe the two are separate but still a part of your "identity" without assuming anything further.

I can assume when I want, thank you . It is how I get to predict the future at times, to expect the unexpected. So not assuming is out of the question. And please take note, I am not assuming for the sake of assuming, but rather from experience― perceived by the intuition NOT entirely a logical process either. Ofcourse it's a belief, a possibility I'm working with, I didn't say any logical foothold so why would you counteract it with one, but the laws of the universe does not directly dismiss the idea's potential either. You keep saying this universal laws such as Laws of Thermodynamics and never really explain how it does. And that example is quite undignified.

Here's what I know of the Laws of Thermodynamics if you'd like to be 'logical' with this phenomena. With the principle that 'matter can not be created nor destroyed'. This principle is not quite concrete, matter can be destroyed on a subatomic level which it can be converted into energy, so obviously there are exceptions. Then there''s the second law which opposes the implication of the first law, stating that 'while total energy remains constant, usable energy and order continually decrease as entropy increases'. The first law implies that there has always been energy, and the second says that a long time ago it would have reached the state of maximum entropy, but it hasn't. Even then it can't entirely be applicable to the soul as it may not even be just 'energy' but beyond it.

Science does not give a concrete understanding of the soul, the soul is not a conformity, it operates outside the norm. Since science does not have a concrete logical presentation of the soul, I can have my ideas on it (I will have either way, as well as other people). Then again, I will repeat, It is not based on any logical foothold and so does not require logical explanations to deter it.

* you also have assumed that it does not influence.. saying it under the laws, but it really doesn't have much to do what the 'laws'.

I'm not so much an unhealthy INFJ, rather just a developing one. So bear with me, I have passions that I press on people with what seems to be a close-minded approach. I will question what you perceive. I'm still young, my thinking function is overdeveloped and my Fe and Se are a bit under-developed or developing. I read somewhere that it's normal for the thinking function to temper the Fe at this stage. You as an INFJ however, I can't quite decipher why we have such different way of seeing/perceiving things, perhaps like one said, because of your strong enneagram 5.

 

[Yatagarasu]

You want proof of my soul?

it's wierd to me that people cannot feel their inner soul. so they think it does not exist or something external or unexplainable. and that it needs to be subjected to the scientific method and journalized in the scientific articles by some well known doctor for it to be true. only then they will believe that who they are in their core is only an energetic particle called "soul" with a consciousness that drives their life force. i just don't get how something so basic about humanity cannot be accepted. if you cannot communicate with your own soul on a fundamental level then you cease to have the ability to connect with others on a real level. intellectualizing through science will never come close to the actual experience to waking up to one's soul.

No. I want proof that the connection between the two is as intimate as some suggest. I will fully acknowledge that you cannot discount the possibility of the soul because those two planes of existence are separate and cannot be proven. But stating that it affects how you live, gives you inspiration or guidance is a claim about the very basis of all knowledge in our world. Notice there is no difference in what we are really saying. It looks the same from the outside. The only difference is that I don't tell myself that a connected soul/body is necessary or undermine logic. Changing the minds of others is much easier than changing the souls.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I can assume when I want, thank you . It is how I get to predict the future at times, to expect the unexpected. So not assuming is out of the question. And please take note, I am not assuming for the sake of assuming, but rather from experience― perceived by the intuition NOT entirely a logical process either. Ofcourse it's a belief, a possibility I'm working with, I didn't say any logical foothold so why would you counteract it with one, but the laws of the universe does not directly dismiss the idea's potential either. You keep saying this universal laws such as Laws of Thermodynamics and never really explain how it does. And that example is quite undignified.

Here's what I know of the Laws of Thermodynamics if you'd like to be 'logical' with this phenomena. With the principle that 'matter can not be created nor destroyed'. This principle is not quite concrete, matter can be destroyed on a subatomic level which it can be converted into energy, so obviously there are exceptions. Then there''s the second law which opposes the implication of the first law, stating that 'while total energy remains constant, usable energy and order continually decrease as entropy increases'. The first law implies that there has always been energy, and the second says that a long time ago it would have reached the state of maximum entropy, but it hasn't.

Science does not give a concrete understanding of the soul, the soul is not a conformity, it operates outside the norm. Since science does not have a concrete logical presentation of the soul, I can have my ideas on it (I will have either way, as well as other people). Then again, I will repeat, It is not based on any logical foothold and so does not require logical explanations to deter it.

I'm not so much an unhealthy INFJ, rather just a developing one. So bear with me, I have passions that I press on people with what seems to be a close-minded approach. I will question what you perceive. I'm still young, my thinking function is overdeveloped and my Fe and Se are a bit under-developed or developing. I read somewhere that it's normal for the thinking function to temper the Fe at this stage. You as an INFJ however, I can't quite decipher why we have such different way of seeing/perceiving things, perhaps like one said, because of your strong enneagram 5.

Assuming things and attributing them to your intuition seems to be a way to stop asking the questions necessary to actually solving the issue at hand. If everyone developed their thoughts through assumptions by experience we would be in trouble because everyone has observations that are subjective by nature. We have a duty to separate what is plausible and useful and what is just there because of bias. Please refer to my example. It does not matter if you are imagining the unicorn just for your own purposes or because you really do experience it. In either circumstance you have to come to the realization that perhaps you are not seeing it as it really is.

Connecting the soul and the body immediately subjects you to the laws of this universe and what believing such things implies. Anything that interacts with matter must do it in a way that is observable at some level. If something immaterial acts on something material it must do it in a way that would alter sub-atomic particles, atoms, molecules, etc. Material things! Keeping the immaterial/material or natural/supernatural seems to be much more reasonable then to try and offer explanations that may conflict with both systems. Even if it is based on subjective experience.

The Laws of Thermodynamics do not necessarily contradict each other. Remember that matter and energy are connected to each other via E=mc^2. All matter has mass. When there is a no mass it becomes energy. Energy is the ability to do work. And when something is unable to do work it causes an increase in the overall entropy of the system. The First Law states no energy can be created or destroyed(as you mentioned). The Second Law states that overall entropy never decreases. That is all. The summation of usable and unusable energy is always constant. This does imply that we might eventually reach a state of complete disorder and chaos.

 

[ODyssey]

Assuming things and attributing them to your intuition seems to be a way to stop asking the questions necessary to actually solving the issue at hand. If everyone developed their thoughts through assumptions by experience we would be in trouble because everyone has observations that are subjective by nature. We have a duty to separate what is plausible and useful and what is just there because of bias. Please refer to my example. It does not matter if you are imagining the unicorn just for your own purposes or because you really do experience it. In either circumstance you have to come to the realization that perhaps you are not seeing it as it really is.

Connecting the soul and the body immediately subjects you to the laws of this universe and what believing such things implies. Anything that interacts with matter must do it in a way that is observable at some level. If something immaterial acts on something material it must do it in a way that would alter sub-atomic particles, atoms, molecules, etc. Material things! Keeping the immaterial/material or natural/supernatural seems to be much more reasonable then to try and offer explanations that may conflict with both systems. Even if it is based on subjective experience.

The Laws of Thermodynamics do not necessarily contradict each other. Remember that matter and energy are connected to each other via E=mc^2. All matter has mass. When there is a no mass it becomes energy. Energy is the ability to do work. And when something is unable to do work it causes an increase in the overall entropy of the system. The First Law states no energy can be created or destroyed(as you mentioned). The Second Law states that overall entropy never decreases. That is all. The summation of usable and unusable energy is always constant. This does imply that we might eventually reach a state of complete disorder and chaos.

The thing about this, as the same arguments people like me and xSTx types have, is that they entirely disregard my belief and pick on things that their T function screams to oppose and take it as a challenge to their knowledge that is based on tangible things. I however, press my belief on an idea that is intangible. Your definition of intuition is totally not correct at all. Take also, that the Sensing function is also subjective, but no more/less better. You can't say that the functions Feeling and Thinking which are actually objective is better than subjective, as there are things that the objective can't touch and there are things that the subjective can't. That's why we have both.

It's not necessary to question my idea, It is not made to solve an issue, but to almost paint my own picture of a soul.. it doesn't need logical criticism~ which is the opposite, it despises it, but rather appreciates subjective criticism. There is totally no point for you saying things like that, it is a belief as I have repeated several times. Where's the mystery? I would bet that you've been mistyped.

 

[Solongo]

No. I want proof that the connection between the two is as intimate as some suggest. I will fully acknowledge that you cannot discount the possibility of the soul because those two planes of existence are separate and cannot be proven. But stating that it affects how you live, gives you inspiration or guidance is a claim about the very basis of all knowledge in our world. Notice there is no difference in what we are really saying. It looks the same from the outside. The only difference is that I don't tell myself that a connected soul/body is necessary or undermine logic. Changing the minds of others is much easier than changing the souls.

Logic will only take you so far. it cannot guide you into your life direction, it cannot make it clear what your innate abilities and gifts are and it cannot synthesize the uniqueness of your individuality as a person. Those who cannot use their soul as a compass usually rely on logic; but logic is only a tool to understand the general direction the soul gives to the individual. Logic is an interpretative mechanism to understand reality but it still cannot unlock the mystery that a man/woman is. if you cannot see the correlation then your connection to spirit and divinity that exists in all humans are shut off. Without this connection humans become robots. it also means you do not understand how your soul communicates with you. Just because an individual lost connection tot heir soul does not mean their soul stopped giving guidance. This is the same as your subconscious mind always working in the background whether you logical mind acknowledge it or not.

 

[Solongo]

The thing about this, as the same arguments people like me and xSTx types have, is that they entirely disregard my belief and pick on things that their T function screams to oppose and take it as a challenge to their knowledge that is based on tangible things. I however, press my belief on an idea that is intangible. Your definition of intuition is totally not correct at all. Take also, that the Sensing function is also subjective, but no more/less better. You can't say that the functions Feeling and Thinking which are actually objective is better than subjective, as there are things that the objective can't touch and there are things that the subjective can't. That's why we have both.

It's not necessary to question my idea, It is not made to solve an issue, but to almost paint my own picture of a soul.. it doesn't need logical criticism~ which is the opposite, it despises it, but rather appreciates subjective criticism. There is totally no point for you saying things like that, it is a belief as I have repeated several times. Where's the mystery? I would bet that you've been mistyped.

I don't think you can show someone something they cannot experience for themselves. The experience of the soul cannot be taught or quantified, only felt in the heart center. It's the same as trying to logically quantify love or emotions. it just doesn't work. But I agree with you.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Logic will only take you so far. it cannot guide you into your life direction, it cannot make it clear what your innate abilities and gifts are and it cannot synthesize the uniqueness of your individuality as a person. Those who cannot use their soul as a compass usually rely on logic; but logic is only a tool to understand the general direction the soul gives to the individual. Logic is an interpretative mechanism to understand reality but it still cannot unlock the mystery that a man/woman is. if you cannot see the correlation then your connection to spirit and divinity that exists in all humans are shut off. Without this connection humans become robots. it also means you do not understand how your soul communicates with you. Just because an individual lost connection tot heir soul does not mean their soul stopped giving guidance. This is the same as your subconscious mind always working in the background whether you logical mind acknowledge it or not.

Given this is how you see this. Do you think its possible the soul can be affected by physical aliments? For instance the region of the brain responsible for feelings goes offline, has your soul been changed?