SOUL

[ODyssey]

No, I don't think the soul influences our movement or thoughts. If it did it would have observable measurements because it affects physical matter. To have outside sources of energy, (as we know it), and not have empirical evidence breaks The Laws of Thermodynamics.

I feel that you don't think much of it. I believe it does have observable measurements.. I see it that it influences physical matter through it's connection with it's physical body as a way to communicate these 'influences'.

As to compare say, a pencil case and a human being.
The human can choose it's purpose, the pencil case is dependent on external influence for it's purpose or it remains as it is. The difference between something with a soul and something without a soul is magnitude.. and I think is an observable measurement.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I feel that you don't think much of it. I believe it does have observable measurements.. I see it that it influences physical matter through it's connection with it's physical body as a way to communicate these 'influences'.

As to compare say, a pencil case and a human being.
The human can choose it's purpose, the pencil case is dependent on external influence for it's purpose or it remains as it is. The difference between something with a soul and something without a soul is magnitude.. and I think is an observable measurement.

To have observable measurements means to be measurable. Just as properties of matter can be measured so too should a soul if it affects that matter in the same way. Neurotransmitters alter the brain in many of the same ways you mention, but the difference is you can measure those effects.

The pencil vs the Human is an interesting example. Notice that you assume the Human can choose its purpose. That may or may not be the case. Take this example into consideration: You have a normal decent Human being. He becomes involved in an accident that dramatically changes his personality. Why did that happen? Did the soul become damaged? Did it suddenly have a change of character? Why can't the soul influence the brain in a way in order to restore the person to their previous state?

 

[sprinkles]

[video=youtube;YnaSRhMB_qo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnaSRhMB_qo[/video]

 

[ODyssey]

To have observable measurements means to be measurable. Just as properties of matter can be measured so too should a soul if it affects that matter in the same way. Neurotransmitters alter the brain in many of the same ways you mention, but the difference is you can measure those effects.

The pencil vs the Human is an interesting example. Notice that you assume the Human can choose its purpose. That may or may not be the case. Take this example into consideration: You have a normal decent Human being. He becomes involved in an accident that dramatically changes his personality. Why did that happen? Did the soul become damaged? Did it suddenly have a change of character? Why can't the soul influence the brain in a way in order to restore the person to their previous state?

observable measurements I take something as simple as investigations and observations between one without a soul and something with a soul. They may find out that one is reactive while the other isn't. But I guess, it's an intuitively way of finding it out, not really much of concrete scientific evidence, does love have an observable measurement?

In this situation, I believe the soul can influence as much as it can with the body that's damaged, there is also that possibility of misinterpretations, such as increase in fear can affect someone's perspectives and probably have an affect to their personality. It doesn't overrun it's physical embodiment, it co-exists with it. If it's the physical body that is damaged, then it should be physically fixed. The change of personality.. (umm, say a traumatic experience? I'd say it would have affected the soul.. but really more of the persons perspectives)

 

[Yatagarasu]

observable measurements I take something as simple as investigations and observations between one without a soul and something with a soul. They may find out that one is reactive while the other isn't. But I guess, it's an intuitively way of finding it out, not really much of concrete scientific evidence, does love have an observable measurement?

In this situation, I believe the soul can influence as much as it can with the body that's damaged, there is also that possibility of misinterpretations, such as increase in fear can affect someone's perspectives and probably have an affect to their personality. It doesn't overrun it's physical embodiment, it co-exists with it. If it's the physical body that is damaged, then it should be physically fixed. The change of personality.. umm, say a traumatic experience? I'd say it would have affected the soul.

Again, something that changes physical states must be directly observable. For example: You cannot melt ice with your soul. If it could you would see energy transferred. Same idea applies to changes in brain states or thoughts. Adding in an unnecessary intermediate is pointless. Keep in mind that I am not ruling out a soul entirely, I am just saying it is very unlikely that it is directly linked to our body as some suggest. Yes, you can measure love in others. Individuals in love have certain regions of the brain affected, as well as specific neurotransmitters active when around those they love. You block those neurotransmitters and/or remove those parts of the brain and they no longer can "feel" love in the same way.

How can a physical event affect an eternal, immaterial soul?

 

[ODyssey]

Again, something that changes physical states must be directly observable. For example: You cannot melt ice with your soul. If it could you would see energy transferred. Same idea applies to changes in brain states or thoughts. Adding in an unnecessary intermediate is pointless. Keep in mind that I am not ruling out a soul entirely, I am just saying it is very unlikely that it is directly linked to our body as some suggest. Yes, you can measure love in others. Individuals in love have certain regions of the brain affected, as well as specific neurotransmitters active when around those they love. You block those neurotransmitters and/or remove those parts of the brain and they no longer can "feel" love in the same way.

How can a physical event affect an eternal, immaterial soul?

how is it not possible, especially that both coexist and connects? if the physical receives wisdom through events, doesn't the soul become wiser.

 

[Yatagarasu]

how is it not possible, especially that both coexist and connects?

But I just explained why it is nearly impossible that they be connected to one another. You can't change physical states without having physical properties. To assume that breaks many universal laws. If we don't have those laws we can't make predictions. No predictions means science is pointless.

 

[ODyssey]

But I just explained why it is nearly impossible that they be connected to one another. You can't change physical states without having physical properties. To assume that breaks many universal laws. If we don't have those laws we can't make predictions. No predictions means science is pointless.

"You can't change physical states without having physical properties. " But that doesn't address my question. The soul has a physical embodiment which it coexists with.

They're connected, and they're not in different ways. welcome to life's contradictions.

 

[Yatagarasu]

"You can't change physical states without having physical properties. " But that doesn't address my question. The soul has a physical embodiment which it coexists with.

Even if you accept that proposition you still have to answer how it can affect the brain in those ways, and vice-versa, but still be immaterial and eternal.

 

[Barnabas]

you think you would still be independently moving without a soul?

In the Bible the spirit and the soul are two separate things, the Soul Nephesh(נָ֫פֶשׁ) in the Hebrew and Psuche'(ψυχή) in the greek refer to what makes you well you. The soul is your personality and experience and your memory it's your very nature. The spirit is Ruach(ר֫וּחַ) in the Hebrew and Peuma(πνεῦμα), refers to life or that which animates. So theoretically you could have an body with a spirit but no soul a meat machine if you will.


As a side fact all four of these words are used as breath in their respective languages and the Ruach, Psuche' and Pneuma all also can be defined as wind.

 

[ODyssey]

Even if you accept that proposition you still have to answer how it can affect the brain in those ways, and vice-versa, but still be immaterial and eternal.

perhaps I'm talking possibilities rather than the concrete that is tangible. How did you come into conclusion that you're Infj? no bad intention, just wondering, you seem to have a stronger T rather than a dom Ni.

 

[Yatagarasu]

They're connected, and they're not in different ways. welcome to life's contradictions.

Whether the soul is how you describe or not shouldn't really matter. My viewpoint avoids that contradiction while still allowing for the soul to possibly exist. What really matters is that we love others. I guess we can just leave at that. It was nice talking with you though! :^)

 

[Yatagarasu]

perhaps I'm talking possibilities rather than the concrete that is tangible. How did you come into conclusion that you're Infj? no bad intention, just wondering, you seem to have a stronger T rather than a dom Ni.

For me a possibility is anything that can likely occur or be the case. The soul and body can exist, but the possibility of them being intimately connected like you see is very low because of the laws of the universe.

I have taken many personality tests which have typed me as an INFJ.

 

[ODyssey]

For me a possibility is anything that can likely occur or be the case. The soul and body can exist, but the possibility of them being intimately connected like you see is very low because of the laws of the universe.

I have taken many personality tests which have typed me as an INFJ.

I really don't see how it conflicts with the laws of the universe? it really doesn't, most laws of the universe is based on tangibility– the soul is not tangible and so it does not apply to it– imo it is open to many possibilities, this is based on my intuition, not my own knowledge of facts.

it was nice talking to you too, I guess we have different opinions then..

 

[nosferatu]

perhaps I'm talking possibilities rather than the concrete that is tangible. How did you come into conclusion that you're Infj? no bad intention, just wondering, you seem to have a stronger T rather than a dom Ni.

I think it's his enneagram 5 - the 5 is strong in this one XD

 

[nosferatu]

I think soul is the energies that drive us to be who we really are, to find the truths about ourselves. Like a stream of energy... There's a block when we come in to contact with things that aren't really resonating with us, then there's things that resonate with us and we feel completed because our energies are effectively resonating with our conscience. Soul can be a series of Persona that we put on in order to function in certain groups, I think we are all capable of having many Persona which manifest in our personal energy field.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

The pencil vs the Human is an interesting example. Notice that you assume the Human can choose its purpose. That may or may not be the case. Take this example into consideration: You have a normal decent Human being. He becomes involved in an accident that dramatically changes his personality. Why did that happen? Did the soul become damaged? Did it suddenly have a change of character? Why can't the soul influence the brain in a way in order to restore the person to their previous state?

Maybe your idea of soul it's a little bit narrow.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Maybe your idea of soul it's a little bit narrow.

Please read the entire exchange. Those were my responses to her mentioning the intimate relationship between the soul and the body. My view is definitely not grounded in any religious ideology.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

Please read the entire exchange. Those were my responses to her mentioning the intimate relationship between the soul and the body. My view is definitely not grounded in any religious ideology.

But why there's no correlation?... Your example just singled out one exception against the countless correlations of the same. Breathing therapy, yoga, even physical activity there are many out there and it's pretty well known by everyone nowadays. I was genuinely confused and i took a leap and said that to you because of that.
As some authors believed (William Blake expresed this by example), the body can perfectly be the part of our soul that has been crystalized, whereas the other part remains as a nebulous void with multiple faces and voices that we can see and hear sometimes, but still we aren't sure it's there.

 

[Yatagarasu]

But why there's no correlation?... Your example just singled out one exception against the countless correlations of the same. Breathing therapy, yoga, even physical activity there are many out there and it's pretty well known by everyone nowadays. I was genuinely confused and i took a leap and said that to you because of that.
As some authors believed (William Blake expresed this by example), the body can perfectly be the part of our soul that has been crystalized, whereas the other part remains a nebulous void that we can see sometimes, but still we aren't sure it's there.

The original point of contention was that the soul can influence the body. That is it can control us/influence us and we would not have autonomy without it. And that it carries our thoughts and personality. I tried to outline the fact that it would be highly unlikely for such a connection to exist because of physical laws. That doesn't rule out the soul existing. That doesn't rule out it being a physical substitute for our soul in this world. But to say it has distinct properties related to us seems to be reaching quite a bit. Yoga, breathing techniques, meditating, and even psychedelics are all physical things that can help us experience a different form of "consciousness". Whether our actions or even the soul influences us just seem to be ways to give accountability and are used in many religions when speaking about the afterlife. Example: The two better be connected because how can you punish my soul for something my body did? There are many metaphysical and existential questions to take into consideration here as well.