SOUL

[Solongo]

Given this is how you see this. Do you think its possible the soul can be affected by physical aliments? For instance the region of the brain responsible for feelings goes offline, has your soul been changed?

Yes it can. Because it is still a living and changing entity within us and is affected positively or negatively by the experiences of our lives. The shamanic practices around the world is centered on the belief that when a person experiences illness of any form; the soul must be looked at first then the physical manifestation of the body later. They believe the body is the last form of manifestation of the illness. To heal the illness, the root cause is looked at and they look at the soul.

I had a personal experience of this nature when I was younger. I may write about it in a blog post.

 

[Skarekrow]

@BrokenDaniel, @solongotgon, @Skarekrow, @ODyssey, and @flower

I can agree with a statement like what @flower mentioned above. It doesn't require the intimate relationship between the two like some have mentioned. If you are going to claim there is a correlation between the two you have to show proof. Everything material can be affected by other material objects. Claims that something immaterial can influence something material break logical laws as well as Laws of Thermodynamics. Saying souls do not follow those laws is not justification for believing they have that connection because ANY claim could be justified using that logic. Example--> Me: I see a rainbow colored unicorn that is invisible to everyone except myself. You: What!? You see an invisible unicorn??? That doesn't make any sense. Do you have any proof? Me: No, but I don't need any! Logic doesn't apply to invisible unicorns.

In short, you can believe it if you wish but I see no use of adding that logic contradiction. You can just as easily believe the two are separate but still a part of your "identity" without assuming anything further.

Firstly, there is a taboo from mainstream science when it comes to even looking into he idea of having a soul…people have lost tenure and jobs doing just that.
What we are talking about here is moving toward a age of “Post materialist science”
Here is the recent manifesto of that view - http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science
And here to be fair is a critique - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-pruett/toward-a-postmaterialistic-science_b_5842730.html (although far from scathing).

Once again…let me ask you, can you prove that the brain is the manufacture of the soul? And you cannot, anymore than I can prove that it is the receiver of the soul.
You especially cannot with a materialist science POV…it runs out of rope real quick when we start to look at things on a quantum scale…we begin to realize that Newtonian Physics not only have a limit, but are not all together correct.
No one here is claiming anything that there isn’t substantial proof…proof that is just as solid as some well-regarded scientific theories we subscribe to now.
I would start you with this documentary.
http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27025&page=78&p=778445&viewfull=1#post778445
And give it a chance, it’s not the most-awesomely produced video ever…lol. But it shows the commonalities amongst those who have had a Near Death Experience (NDE).
Then I would head over to IONS The Institute Of Noetic Science - http://noetic.org/ which is rich with all the data and scientific studies you want.
Then I would take a look at the Princeton Labs (PEARS)

[video=vimeo;4359545]http://vimeo.com/4359545[/video]

You want hardcore data? The Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research labs have proven beyond a shadow of doubt…we are talking odds of greater than a million to one…some suggest that is a conservative number and put it at a trillion to one against there not being some kind of psychic phenomena such as a collective consciousness (the main area of study there) but they have also tested ESP and other PSI phenomena.

Hell, even our our government acknowledged that PSI phenomena do exist….as have Russia, China, and many others.

Most of the people you are calling out, are interested and have studied these things because we have usually had an experience that make us question the materialist view of science.
I had a very violent paranormal encounter that no matter how hard I looked I couldn’t explain it.
So there you go…my thread “Merkabah” has a lot of news stories about quantum physics and paranormal and PSI phenomenon - http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27025

I will leave you with this other video…it’s a talk that I just put up on my thread about where consciousness exists.
This is Dr. Bruce Greyson from the Institute Of Noetic Science.

[video=youtube;sPGZSC8odIU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sPGZSC8odIU[/video]

 

[Skarekrow]

Given this is how you see this. Do you think its possible the soul can be affected by physical aliments? For instance the region of the brain responsible for feelings goes offline, has your soul been changed?

No…and yes.
Your soul has only been changed by what it has experienced, and that could be for good or for bad…it’s whatever you cultivate.
But as far as me believing that because I have arthritis in this life I will be afflicted as a soul alone? No.
Nor do I feel that it is the same with other mental ailments and emotional issues people might have like depression and anxiety.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Look everyone... I am not saying the soul does not exist. I am not saying that the soul isn't a part of a higher conscious. All I am opposing(at this time) is any connection between the body/soul. I have seen this time and again. One person says they believe something. The other responds that the their claim needs proof IF it goes against how we understand the universe. A claim that a soul exists is not a claim against the way we understand the world. It is in a completely different category. It does not need justification because it does not affect our logic. On the other hand a claim about what influences us to act the way we do IS a claim about the standards we use everyday of our life. Example: We may not know the exact way a soul would be able to interact with the body(AS OF NOW), but without further evidence it is potentially dangerous to use subjective knowledge as basis for our claims about the world(as I will try to explain below).

With that being said... I can, if I want, create any belief that is similar to that claim and say it is valid because I experienced it. My concern is not this claim but all other claims under this mantle of "it is my subjective experience so I can validate it". This form of esoteric knowledge halts all discussion. It makes all the claims about the connection between the divine and the earthly and expects others to accept it at face value. Your beliefs influence how you act. The only difference here is that this particular argument(Soul/body connection) doesn't have as many consequences in the real world. Other beliefs do. When others make claims about the "right" God they are using similar logic. When called out on it they respond in similar ways(it just feels right, He listens to my prays, I saw Him/Heaven when I was near death, et cetera). Instead of dealing with the world in pragmatic ways that affect real people they live in the shadow of their fears. Not willing to accept that might not have all the answers. To this day we see people all around the world condemning others, killing others, over their subjective claims. As if their beliefs are in an isolated system. In what other facet of life would this work? By being lenient with the smaller claims you are enabling others to use similar logic without understanding the implications on real situations.

To add on... I have certainly felt love and emotions. After years of meditation I have reached points that felt like a greater consciousness was in play(I still need much work -_-). But you know what I haven't done? I haven't assumed those feelings, emotions, and states were anything more than my neurology. Why? Because I know that assuming such things from my experience does nothing without evidence that everyone can accept regardless of their experiences. All it allows is for the abuse of a system.

Now I know many of you will not agree and perhaps even resent me for this viewpoint. That is okay. For many it challenges the way they structure their beliefs and it is only natural to feel slighted when presented with this view. I probably should have mentioned this earlier but I was somewhat concerned some would completely disregard future comments of mine. Regarding my personality type... I wouldn't say it really matters to me, per say. I just feel that the title INFJ correctly sums up my combination of empathy for others, unorthodox value system, obsessiveness over certain things that actually do matter to me, as well as the fact I have been mistaken for many different types, (as seems to be the case more often with INFJ types). INTJ: When in academic settings. INFJ/ENFJ: When around specific individuals. INFP... As well as many others.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Really everyone is guessing here. Im just interested to see what everyone has come up with.

You know sometimes I think I am in tune with what might be considered a soul. There have been times in my life though were I looked and found nothing. Nothing at all.
I want to believe but knowing what I know. Its very hard.

 

[ODyssey]

Really everyone is guessing here. Im just interested to see what everyone has come up with.

You know sometimes I think I am in tune with what might be considered a soul. There have been times in my life though were I looked and found nothing. Nothing at all.
I want to believe but knowing what I know. Its very hard.

knowing what you know?

 

[Eventhorizon]

knowing what you know?

Oh yes. Knowing what I know.

 

[ODyssey]

Oh yes. Knowing what I know.

Should I ask?

 

[Eventhorizon]

Should I ask?

Duno

 

[Steve Han]

I've been looking deeply into the spiritual side of life, and from my findings I am very confident that we each have a soul

 

[Eventhorizon]

I've been looking deeply into the spiritual side of life, and from my findings I am very confident that we each have a soul

Care to elaborate?

 

[Eventhorizon]

No…and yes.
Your soul has only been changed by what it has experienced, and that could be for good or for bad…it’s whatever you cultivate.
But as far as me believing that because I have arthritis in this life I will be afflicted as a soul alone? No.
Nor do I feel that it is the same with other mental ailments and emotional issues people might have like depression and anxiety.

Its strange to think the physical body can change the soul by essentially allowing it to learn differently
. But that somehow it doesnt really change it. Depending on how it affects other people other people react to you differently as well. Your whole view of life changes not only in how you interact with it but how it interacts with you.
There is a great leaning toward the positive that I dont think is justified. Its like saying you can eat the steak without killing the cow.

 

[Skarekrow]

Its strange to think the physical body can change the soul by essentially allowing it to learn differently
. But that somehow it doesnt really change it. Depending on how it affects other people other people react to you differently as well. Your whole view of life changes not only in how you interact with it but how it interacts with you.
There is a great leaning toward the positive that I dont think is justified. Its like saying you can eat the steak without killing the cow.

I actually subscribe to the idea that reincarnation is a good possibility and there is a good possibility that we could end up here again.
That said, I also think we do have a choice in most circumstances. I think that there are definitely evil people out there who didn’t learn the lesson here the first 5 times around. From what I know, there are souls that will be destroyed…that cannot be saved, because they choose evil over good…they choose selfishness over selflessness…they choose their ego over humanity.
I don’t understand when you say that positivity is unjustified.
I understand if you are looking at things from a purely egocentric position, then yes, this place fucking sucks…but we are supposed to be the ones to change that…we are responsible for that, me, you, your next-door neighbor.
You know every year they hold several meetings of Buddhists or other groups that meditate and they do a group meditation.
Most of those actually correspond with the random number generators around the world…those are read and interpreted at the Princeton Engineering Anomalous Research lab and they have shown that such activities does in fact cause the RNG to slightly calibrate with one another while this is going on. So, good thoughts and intentions do cause something to happen…hopefully it would be for good…I can’t imagine that it would work in an opposite manner.
Another interesting bit…the biggest fluctuation that have recored there so far since starting was the destruction of the twin towers…there was a huge deviation from the norm on the RNGs…as if our collective fear, horror, anxiety, hate were jacked up.
There is no explanation for such a fluctuation except that this is a real phenomena…they have given results at a trillion to one in their favor that this is accurate.
And yet, mainstream materialist science dismisses this because they don’t like the implications. It would force them to think in a different manner they are uncomfortable with.
I do think that events change the soul….but I don’t think you carry the physical ailments over when we die.
I believe that we only bring with us what we cultivated here on Earth…this is a resounding recurring statement.
Did you cultivate love and kindness, openness, consideration, selflessness, etc, etc.
Or, did you cultivate the opposite? Including negativity.
Answer me this…what do you have to lose by promoting positivity over negativity?

 

[Eventhorizon]

I actually subscribe to the idea that reincarnation is a good possibility and there is a good possibility that we could end up here again.
That said, I also think we do have a choice in most circumstances. I think that there are definitely evil people out there who didn’t learn the lesson here the first 5 times around. From what I know, there are souls that will be destroyed…that cannot be saved, because they choose evil over good…they choose selfishness over selflessness…they choose their ego over humanity.
I don’t understand when you say that positivity is unjustified.
I understand if you are looking at things from a purely egocentric position, then yes, this place fucking sucks…but we are supposed to be the ones to change that…we are responsible for that, me, you, your next-door neighbor.
You know every year they hold several meetings of Buddhists or other groups that meditate and they do a group meditation.
Most of those actually correspond with the random number generators around the world…those are read and interpreted at the Princeton Engineering Anomalous Research lab and they have shown that such activities does in fact cause the RNG to slightly calibrate with one another while this is going on. So, good thoughts and intentions do cause something to happen…hopefully it would be for good…I can’t imagine that it would work in an opposite manner.
Another interesting bit…the biggest fluctuation that have recored there so far since starting was the destruction of the twin towers…there was a huge deviation from the norm on the RNGs…as if our collective fear, horror, anxiety, hate were jacked up.
There is no explanation for such a fluctuation except that this is a real phenomena…they have given results at a trillion to one in their favor that this is accurate.
And yet, mainstream materialist science dismisses this because they don’t like the implications. It would force them to think in a different manner they are uncomfortable with.
I do think that events change the soul….but I don’t think you carry the physical ailments over when we die.
I believe that we only bring with us what we cultivated here on Earth…this is a resounding recurring statement.
Did you cultivate love and kindness, openness, consideration, selflessness, etc, etc.
Or, did you cultivate the opposite? Including negativity.
Answer me this…what do you have to lose by promoting positivity over negativity?

Your answer is, potentially truth.
But let me ask you another. What is good, what is evil? Now I dont like using evil as a term because I think it is wholly connected to religious significance. Good and bad? If we look at the death of a star, what do you see? A star far away for us is a statistic. Our own star is bad. The universe see a statistic always. Here on earth we define good and bad compared to our own definitions. The implication of this is, once we leave our physical bodies is, does good and bad mean anything at that point? As for people who are evil never learning. Learning what taught by who? This suggestion can only be coupled with an outside influence that agrees with or puts stock in humans definition of good and evil. Here though we see the arrogance of humans thinking something large enough to view all of our lives and judge them would judge them in accordance to our own understanding. It may be that in death if we live on the evil we think of as evil here is comparatively good to where ever else we go.

My point about a positive spin being placed is this. When people try to describe that which is little understood they say things like good and bad. Live your life this way to find good, stray down this path to find bad. As if its that simple. Perhaps it is but there is nothing that gives and actual proof thatsthe way it is. We humans define these things with no real right or conviction to do so.

 

[Skarekrow]

Your answer is, potentially truth.
But let me ask you another. What is good, what is evil? Now I dont like using evil as a term because I think it is wholly connected to religious significance. Good and bad? If we look at the death of a star, what do you see? A star far away for us is a statistic. Our own star is bad. The universe see a statistic always. Here on eartb we define good and bad compared to our own definitions. The implication of this is, once we leave our physical bodies does what was good and bad mean anything? As for people who are evil ever learning. Learning what taught by who? This suggestion can only be coupled with an outside influence that agrees with or puts stock in humans definition of good and evil. Here though we see the arrogance of humans thinking something large enough to view all of our lives and judge them would judge them in accordance to our own understanding. It may be that in death if we live on the evil we think of as evil here is comparatively good to where ever else we go.

My point about a positive spin being placed is this. When people try to describe that whi h is little understood they say things like good and bad. Live your life this way to find good, stray down this path to find bad. As if its that simple. Perhaps it is but there is nothing that gives and actual proof thatsthe way it is. We humans define these thi gs with no real right or conviction to do so.

You know if you cause harm to someone.
You know if you say something hurtful to someone.
You know kicking a puppy is a negative thing.
So goes with positive things.
You know when you are being kind to someone.
When you are helping someone because they need help and you are there.

Of course we can play semantical games about the definition of good vs evil.
But good and evil are already defined for you unless you are a sociopath and have no empathy.
In which case we could call that a mental illness and I wouldn’t hold them fully accountable for that.

I wouldn’t view the death of a star as a negative thing…that is just the function of the universe.
Even if said supernova wiped-out an inhabited star…life and death doesn’t equate to good and evil.

Yes, people have been trying to define good and evil for a long time…and I say this - quit thinking about it logically, love is not always logical conclusion.
Even very small children understand the golden rule and why it’s a good thing.
Why do we as humans treasure love and being in love…we write poetry and cheesy movies about it.
Because it is innately a part of us.

And perhaps evil is not what we think it is…who knows what comes after this….we only have ideas.
But people talk of emotions they didn’t have before…colors never seen before.

I for one, am sure that there are people who have made up the whole story about crossing over and having an NDE…I don’t doubt that, I think I even know one.
But the resounding number of people who have correlations between experiences tells me that there is some truth there.
And they talk of the very fabric of the universe being made of love…now mind you, some of these people were very self-absorbed, some wealthy, etc.
And like I said before, they have lost marriages, given away all their wealth and possessions because they have a greater understanding.

Now if they were to come back and say - I just saw darkness.
Or - I saw purple dragons

And enough people had that similar experience..then you have to at least entertain the possibility that there could be fucking pink dragons…lol.

Yes, you can live your life out of the way of everyone and just leave them alone and they will leave you alone.
Some people are like that…but there is a difference between doing that in a good way and a negative way.

Good would be learning, creating, enjoying nature, etc.
Negative would be, wallowing in self-pity, being lazy, etc.

By learning I only mean whatever you would learn while here on Earth.
I know you are probably sick of hearing about NDEs, but that is the second thing (after love) with the most emphasis on it - learning and soaking up knowledge.

I don’t think anyone but you can tell YOU what is good or bad…YOU know that already.

 

[Eventhorizon]

You know if you cause harm to someone.
You know if you say something hurtful to someone.
You know kicking a puppy is a negative thing.
So goes with positive things.
You know when you are being kind to someone.
When you are helping someone because they need help and you are there.

Of course we can play semantical games about the definition of good vs evil.
But good and evil are already defined for you unless you are a sociopath and have no empathy.
In which case we could call that a mental illness and I wouldn’t hold them fully accountable for that.

I wouldn’t view the death of a star as a negative thing…that is just the function of the universe.
Even if said supernova wiped-out an inhabited star…life and death doesn’8t equate to good and evil.

Yes, people have been trying to define good and evil for a long time…and I say this - quit thinking about it logically, love is not always logical conclusion.
Even very small children understand the golden rule and why it’s a good thing.
Why do we as humans treasure love and being in love…we write poetry and cheesy movies about it.
Because it is innately a part of us.

And perhaps evil is not what we think it is…who knows what comes after this….we only have ideas.
But people talk of emotions they didn’t have before…colors never seen before.

I for one, am sure that there are people who have made up the whole story about crossing over and having an NDE…I don’t doubt that, I think I even know one.
But the resounding number of people who have correlations between experiences tells me that there is some truth there.
And they talk of the very fabric of the universe being made of love…now mind you, some of these people were very self-absorbed, some wealthy, etc.
And like I said before, they have lost marriages, given away all their wealth and possessions because they have a greater understanding.

Now if they were to come back and say - I just saw darkness.
Or - I saw purple dragons

And enough people had that similar experience..then you have to at least entertain the possibility that there could be fucking pink dragons…lol.

Yes, you can live your life out of the way of everyone and just leave them alone and they will leave you alone.
Some people are like that…but there is a difference between doing that in a good way and a negative way.

Good would be learning, creating, enjoying nature, etc.
Negative would be, wallowing in self-pity, being lazy, etc.

By learning I only mean whatever you would learn while here on Earth.
I know you are probably sick of hearing about NDEs, but that is the second thing (after love) with the most emphasis on it - learning and soaking up knowledge.

I don’t think anyone but you can tell YOU what is good or bad…YOU know that already.

Your good and evil is still only defined by what relative to humans. Imagine one day we encounter an alien race that on occasion displays canalbolism. Right off the bat how do you think of them? You judge them on human terms and think of that as bad adding to them being bad overall. Later with a little study you find they would not have survived without their cannibalistic qualities. How do you view them now?

The universe is a incomprehensibly large place. So what if I know that hurting another living thing is bad because I wouldn't want the samething done to me? I eat meat. If I could avoid eating meat and remain healthy as a human should I might not. Vegetarians have no right to say eating meat is wrong or bad. Vegetarians can only survive on food that cant be cultivated all in one place. It wouldnt be possible for them to survive in the old days where the food they need comes from all over these days. Also there practice is a matter of trial and error passed down from others who have tried before. So while we may say eating another life to sustain our own is bad, its also necessary. No I did not kill the puppy, instead I killed the cow. Is it a lesser life because it is not as cute or that it does not fit into a home more easily?

 

[Yatagarasu]

Are you a Human? Do you care about Human well being? If your answer is yes to any of those questions then you should follow ideas that promote the prosperity of Humans. Sure it might not be objectively good or evil but who cares? The universe certainly doesn't...

As an added note, I don't think humans are innately anything. The reason I love children is because they are a clean slate, as well as the building blocks of the future. Of course that can be a negative thing as well. But I stick to it because it kind of gives me hope. Haha.

 

[Skarekrow]

Your good and evil is still only defined by what relative to humans. Imagine one day we encounter an alien race that on occasion displays canalbolism. Right off the bat how do you think of them? You judge them on human terms and think of that as bad adding to them being bad overall. Later with a little study you find they would not have survived without their cannibalistic qualities. How do you view them now?

The universe is a incomprehensibly large place. So what if I know that hurting another living thing is bad because I wouldn't want the samething done to me? I eat meat. If I could avoid eating meat and remain healthy as a human should I might not. Vegetarians have no right to say eating meat is wrong or bad. Vegetarians can only survive on food that cant be cultivated all in one place. It wouldnt be possible for them to survive in the old days where the food they need comes from all over these days. Also there practice is a matter of trial and error passed down from others who have tried before. So while we may say eating another life to sustain our own is bad, its also necessary. No I did not kill the puppy, instead I killed the cow. Is it a lesser life because it is not as cute or that it does not fit into a home more easily?

If you don’t feel bad for eating a cow that’s fine.
It’s one thing to buy that at the store and not have to witness it’s death and butchery.
It’s another to feel the fear and pain of that creature.

We could go around in circles forever on what is good and evil…I am not denying that. What I am saying is we already know what is good for humanity, and the conditions in which humanity thrives.
We know where they don’t thrive.
They don’t thrive in places where governments are greedy.
Where people act in their own self-interest instead of the interest of the greater population.
We know that if children are not picked up and held and shown love…they will either wither and die…or have severe mental problems.
We know that really smiling or laughing at something honestly, makes you feel good.
And not in an artificial way like drug or alcohol can provide.

Yes, I can ask this question in a manner that changes the answers to fit what is convenient to my latest way of thinking and comprehending.
I can ask this question with variables that never will nor should be accounted for such as how an alien behaves on a distant planet…but without that variable you are still left with our humanly understanding of it.

 

[Eventhorizon]

If you don’t feel bad for eating a cow that’s fine.
It’s one thing to buy that at the store and not have to witness it’s death and butchery.
It’s another to feel the fear and pain of that creature.

We could go around in circles forever on what is good and evil…I am not denying that. What I am saying is we already know what is good for humanity, and the conditions in which humanity thrives.
We know where they don’t thrive.
They don’t thrive in places where governments are greedy.
Where people act in their own self-interest instead of the interest of the greater population.
We know that if children are not picked up and held and shown love…they will either wither and die…or have severe mental problems.
We know that really smiling or laughing at something honestly, makes you feel good.
And not in an artificial way like drug or alcohol can provide.

Yes, I can ask this question in a manner that changes the answers to fit what is convenient to my latest way of thinking and comprehending.
I can ask this question with variables that never will nor should be accounted for such as how an alien behaves on a distant planet…but without that variable you are still left with our humanly understanding of it.

For what its worth I understand what you are saying. Its nothing I have not explored myself long ago. However let me add there is a deeper current here if you wish to explore it.

 

[Skarekrow]

For what its worth I understand what you are saying. Its nothing I have not explored myself long ago. However let me add there is a deeper current here if you wish to explore it.

Let’s do it.