NT vs. NF intuition

[Nixie]

I also think some of the difference in NF vs NT are

NTs build their understanding of Ni on a system (Te?)
NFs build their understanding of Ni on a belief (Fe?)

As a T, I will analyze the various interactions I have by what is said, how it is said, what isn't said, when things are said, who said it and so on and so on. Within myself I have a basic understanding of all those interactions which is a framework of how I can intuit things about the situation. Ni assists me finding my own internal answers and I think it is more structured than if I was a NF. I think NFs do the same things but it is more related to situations--I remember when I felt this or that happened.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Feelings]

NT has less foresight
[MENTION=1834]sandra_b[/MENTION] told me so
oh sandra
how magical you are

 

[Orion]

Perhaps it makes sense, but I do, do things that go against my natural inclinations in order to make better decisions. I'm not necessarily saying that I don't still "see" the world in that way just that it depends very largely on the situation the choices I actually decide to make. I was under the impression everyone has all 8 functions but has preferences for which they use instinctually. could you help clear that up for me?

Yes but the last four functions, your shadows, are almost non-existent. Using a shadow function is like changing your religion or political stance. The shadow represents a method of interpreting everything that we know, trust and believe in. All your commonly held beliefs, motivations and ideas on life, yourself and others are built on the foundation of your cognitive function hierarchy. Now imagine someone who is the complete opposite of you. Imagine that they live completely differently, have a totally take on morality, sex, love whatever. It would be very difficult, if not impossible to just, become like that person wouldn't it? Sure, you could mirror their traits and such but the motivation to do that doesn't come from your desire to exercise your shadow, it comes from your dominant functions desire.

Shadow functions represent the absolute opposite of how we normally operate. Shadow functions are threatening to our current selves because who we are is built on consistent behaviour and conditioning. If shadow functions could be used at a whim, we wouldn't have a personality much less a cohesive persona to live life, even on a surface level.

I am a little confused though, if the process only effects the outcome to a limited extent than what is it that would motivate one person to go against a natural inclination and another to go with it? would this yet be another personality layer on top of JFC that is colored by the nurture and experience of our environment over our nature?

Your problem right now is how you are defining natural inclination. It sounds to me like you are comparing your behaviour to what you believe to be inline with INFJ behaviour. There is no such thing as INFJ behaviour or Feeling behaviour or Thinking behaviour. Only your motivation. In order to understand JCF, you have to let go off (to some degree) your images of how you think types and enneagram types should behave. Because right now you are comparing your behaviour to commonly held ideas on how INFJs should behave, therefore you'll come to the conclusion that because you don't behave like that, then you are not an INFJ.

would this yet be another personality layer on top of JFC that is colored by the nurture and experience of our environment over our nature?

Yes, but remember that CFs define how you deal with information (P) and what you do with it (J) but not what information you deal with. An INFJ could be gravitating to the same sorts of things as an ESTP, but they both do it for different motivations and reasons. Then, you as an individual, (above CF's) would colour what you will do with information presented for you by your cognitive functions.

For the record, I don't know what your type is, as I don't and probably never will know you that well! So what I'm saying goes for all types.

I think maybe that "out of character" is the part I'm getting stuck on mainly because of my enneagram which seems to be 3w2 in affable situations and 3w4 in cognitive situations (not sure if this is possible or not) I have a hard time knowing what is "in character" of myself because that depends very largely on the situation. I do think for me a large part of where my confusion comes from is I treat work/disciplines in a completely different fashion than I treat personal/friendships and thinking/debating differently on top of that. I seem to keep them all very very separate from one another with very limited overlap.

This is a very common issue but you must recognise that this isn't really your cognitive functions working here but your psychological states changing due to the environment. Psychological states are the differences in emotions that we use in any given situation. Everyone does this. We adopt different physiological patterns around different people and contexts. We speak to infant children or friends differently to how we would speak to our parents for instance. Though someone like you, with such an extreme delineation between different contexts will have a harder time locating exactly where their motivations lie. Though this process of questioning will help you to understanding!

 

[Lurker]

I'm interested in thoughts how intuition works uniquely in the following pairings:

1) NFJs. vs. NTJs.

Ni vs Ni. So no different but one is influenced by Fe the other Te which makes it taste different.

2) NFPs. vs NTPs

Ne vs Ne. So again, no different but influenced by either Ti or Fi so the overall feel is different.

3) NFJs vs. NFPs

Ni vs Ne, and,

4) NTJs. vs. NTPs.

Ni vs Ne, therefore those two comparisons are quite different when it comes to intuition. Ne is about gathering data, interconnections and future possibilities, what might be, looking at multiple contexts at the same time. While Ni is foreseeing what is likely without needing external data, it's about seeing what will be.

To apply intuition to types you have to take into consideration the other leading functions which is why even though INFJs and INTJs are both Ni doms how they come across is vastly different.

 

[boork]

kiu wrote:

NTs (really meaning this NT) test their intuition's correctness by asking if it makes sense and is it elegantly solved while; NFs appear to test their intuition by asking is this good, ethical or beautiful.

Sali wrote:

I do think for me a large part of where my confusion comes from is I treat work/disciplines in a completely different fashion than I treat personal/friendships and thinking/debating differently on top of that.

kiu, I love this way of putting it. I can't speak for anyone else, but the NF part of that statement rings true to me. Sali, I don't think this is particularly unusual at all, depending on the circumstances. At my job (research grad student in earth science) I'm pretty much surrounded by a fair bit of S and a lot of T, and I'm definitely the odd man out. When I'm interacting with people in that environment, I tend to respond in kind, and I use a lot of Te (they tend not to adapt to me much, so I adapt to them -- or at least that is what it seems like from my perspective). I don't think adaptability to circumstances or other people is at all odd. Although it did confuse me when I was trying to work out my type. I spent a lot of time trying to tease out, out of all the ways I could function, how I would want to function if unrestricted. Note sure that makes any sense...

 

[Gaze]

Ni vs Ni. So no different but one is influenced by Fe the other Te which makes it taste different.



Ne vs Ne. So again, no different but influenced by either Ti or Fi so the overall feel is different.



Ni vs Ne, and,



Ni vs Ne, therefore those two comparisons are quite different when it comes to intuition. Ne is about gathering data, interconnections and future possibilities, what might be, looking at multiple contexts at the same time. While Ni is foreseeing what is likely without needing external data, it's about seeing what will be.

To apply intuition to types you have to take into consideration the other leading functions which is why even though INFJs and INTJs are both Ni doms how they come across is vastly different.

I'm aware that they are different, which is why i'm asking how.

 

[uuu]

My household is literally all NFs and NTs. (We actually have two INFJ males, an ENFJ female, and an INTJ female - quite the uncommon bunch. oh and a ENFP, and the INFP cat)
What tends to happen is that the NT swoops in to "help out" us feelers when we get all caught up in emotions. They believe they're doing us a favor when they try to rationalize and systematize the situation at hand. But, then we just start crying, trying to use Ni and explain our point of view. NT listens, but doesn't see the relevancy.
Ultimately the NFs win by our sly powers of manipulation, but NT has the impression that the entire household lives as a power/control tug-of-war.

 

[not sure]

My household is literally all NFs and NTs. (We actually have two INFJ males, an ENFJ female, and an INTJ female - quite the uncommon bunch. oh and a ENFP, and the INFP cat)
What tends to happen is that the NT swoops in to "help out" us feelers when we get all caught up in emotions. They believe they're doing us a favor when they try to rationalize and systematize the situation at hand. But, then we just start crying, trying to use Ni and explain our point of view. NT listens, but doesn't see the relevancy.
Ultimately the NFs win by our sly powers of manipulation, but NT has the impression that the entire household lives as a power/control tug-of-war.

Yup. This sounds right esp., the bolded parts. ROFLMAO. I in fact, own this book: The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene and Joost Elffers and Sun Tzu's Art of War. When I watch movies, I'm mostly focused on the power struggles. I realized the only way I wasn't going to go crazy was to do my research!

 

[gps]

I'm interested in thoughts how intuition works uniquely in the following pairings:

1) NFJs. vs. NTJs.

2) NFPs. vs NTPs

3) NFJs vs. NFPs

4) NTJs. vs. NTPs.

v-- from http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/INFJ/message/58114

...

If someone starts from a one-size-fits-all
perspective it's an improvement to go from
one category to 4 categories. Yet to
establish categories of any kind tend to
promote categorical discrimination in way too
many.

...

Agreed. Virtually all the professional
programmers I've worked with have been INTJ
and INTP and the difference are like night
and day.
And that the star wars character INTJs most
test as is Darth Vader is not lost on me.
The INTJs I've worked with have had a Draconian bent
and an assortment of Procrustean Beds upon which they
attempt to prostrate one and all.

...

I've noticed a HUGE difference between how
NTJs do `strategy' and how I do strategy.
NTJs seem to start with their end goals and
work backwards to `make it happen' ... as do
NFJs, for what's it worth.

I seem to weave in elements of what I desire
into the present to promote what I want. I
seem to work more like a sculptor and `work
with the grain'. If you give a J a chunk of
wood they will mill it into 2x4s and use it
within some preconceived notion as per their
master plans.

NxJs seem less `rational' than
`rationalizing' to me. Yes, both NTJs and
NFJs. They have end goals in mind and
rationalize whatever they do as `for the
greater good' and attempt to use rules and
regulations to justify and rationalize their
(mis)behaviors.


...

Recently -- in the last couple of months --
I've come to `see' Keirsey's split of NTs and NFs as
less useful than an unzipping of his false dichotomy.
In terms of similarities I'll tender the following pairs:
_NT_ - _NF_
INTP - INFP
INTJ - INFJ
ENTP - ENFP
ENTJ - ENFJ

Those with whom I've experienced the greatest
compatibility have tested-as INFP and INTP
... MBTI-wise. And my best matches regarding
the enneagram have been an inversion of my
type and wing: the 4w5 Bohemian.

If I want someone to make me conform to `the
group' or `society' I'll look for an xNxJ.
If I want someone to look for my grain and
help me sculpt myself into better version of
me ... irrespective of the arbitrary and
capricious fashions of the mob, I'll look for
a fellow INTP or friendly INFP.

^-- from http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/INFJ/message/58114