And the "self-fuckening prophecy" is when your day is amazing and you're thinking: "It will obviously get worse", and it does as a result of having that thought.
Merkabah
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And the "self-fuckening prophecy" is when your day is amazing and you're thinking: "It will obviously get worse", and it does as a result of having that thought.
And the "self-fuckening prophecy" is when your day is amazing and you're thinking: "It will obviously get worse", and it does as a result of having that thought.
- Sep 28, 2008
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@John K
The article I promised.
Curious idea...what do you think?
(This guy really likes to tout his own “Division Theory” and makes sure and says it about a thousand times though I couldn’t find any links to it lmao)
Continuing discoveries this century are shedding ever greater light onto one of the most opaque and mysterious periods in history, illuminating the man and message and 1st century cultural impact of Jesus.
Given the recent discoveries of the "Dead Sea Scrolls", the "Gnostic Gospels" of Nag Hammadi, and now, apparently, even the long-sought "Gospel of the Nazirenes", far more has been discovered about the earliest days of Christianity in this century than in all the years previous.
And what is becoming more and more clear from these discoveries is that the original message of Christ differed sharply from the official doctrines later adopted by the church.
Recently an Aramaic manuscript entitled "The Gospel of the Nazirenes" was translated and published.
Said to be an ancient scripture forgotten for centuries in a Tibetan monastery, this work seems, in virtually every respect, identical to a work by the same title that was known and widely quoted from in the first centuries of the church.
Many of the most revered early church fathers, as well as a surprising number of scholars today, have boldly declared that the legendary "Gospel of the Nazirenes" was nothing less than the long-lost ORIGINAL Gospel which, legend holds, was collectively written by the actual 12 apostles in the period immediately after Christ’s death, and upon which all three of the Biblical synoptic Gospels were based.
If this recently published work indeed IS that original lost scripture, it would be a magnificent treasure of unequaled value, possessing incomparable relevance for the whole of Christianity.
The manuscript claims in no uncertain terms to be that same ancient work composed by the 12 apostles, and, in fact, it makes an intriguing and compelling case for being just that.
And it supports Division Theory, the scientific Life-After-Death theology found in the Gnostic Gospels of Nag Hammadi in the 1940’s.
The Legend of the Lost Gospel
For nearly 2,000 years, all we objectively knew of Jesus came to us primarily through the four Biblical Gospels.
But for all that time, a great and enduring pall has hung over those lofty works.
In the fourth century, the authorities of Rome decided just which of the countless books on Jesus in circulation at that time would make up the present-day Bible, deciding once and for all, in effect, which works were to be judged as genuine and authoritative and which were not.
This decision, unfortunately, carried the undeniable taint of politics - and possible political compromise - the Bishops making these decisions were doing so at the direct command of the Roman Emperor, and their future financial and social well-being was, everyone agrees, entirely under his control.
It has been whispered ever since the fourth century that much of the true message of Jesus was edited out at that time, due to the oppressive and theologically-obtuse influence of Constantine.
Many Christian scriptures that failed to be admitted into the Bible were then outlawed, collected, and destroyed.
Prior to 325 AD, however, many of the early Church fathers had included in their writings mention of an earlier Gospel, upon which, they claimed in near-perfect unison, the synoptic Gospels of,
Matthew, Mark, and Luke had ALL been based. Mentioned or quoted from by such well-known church fathers as Papias, Hegesippus, Iranaeas, Clement, Origen, Basil, Epiphanius, Eusebius, and St. Jerome, this document had gone variously by the title,
For nearly 2,000 years, historians considered this work to have been irrevocably lost, but in 1870 a forgotten copy was said to have been discovered hidden away in a Tibetan monastery, and was quickly translated from the original Aramaic, published this time as "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve".
- "Gospel of the Nazirenes" (The word "Nazirene" comes from a "Nazirite-Essene" sect, or a Nazirite sect of the Essene branch of Judaism)
- "Gospel of the Hebrews"
- "Gospel of the Ebionites"
- "The Aramaic Gospel of Matthew"
This work was, however, translated quite clumsily into very dusty old-style King James English, and at the time the work was not widely noticed or read. But now a new translation has arrived, published in 1997, edited and restored by Alan Wauters and Rick Van Wyhe.
This document certainly seems to be the same gospel referred to by so many ancient commentators.
Although that ancient original scripture had indeed been lost, a number of its passages are still known, having been preserved when various church fathers quoted them in their own writings.
Virtually all those quoted passages are found again here in "Nazirenes" in their entirety (as are also virtually the entire contents of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke).
Numerous historical references thus seem to confirm the authenticity of the 1870 manuscript, and many modern scholars since 1870 have concluded as well that this work is, in all likelihood, the original source of much of the material that eventually found its way into the Biblical Gospels.
If so, the Biblical Gospels would then be mere edited versions of this earlier, and therefore more authoritative work, just as many have argued over the centuries.
The Stamp of Authenticity
Far more than the Biblical Gospels, this work has the feel of having been written by actual witnesses to the events it describes.
The detail is often both more natural and more explicit, and a great many theological, social, and political issues come out making a great deal more sense.
Often during the reading of this work, one feels that one is simply reading the Bible, for many passages are, indeed, virtually identical to that found in the canon.
The familiar old stories are told again, and either the working is identical, or, when expanded upon or alternate wording is used, the stories come out making rather more sense than before, clearing up many questions left hanging in the authorized version.
Never does it seem that the unfamiliar material is actually out- of-place, as if it had been pasted-in by editors after the fact.
Rather, in virtually every instance the fresh material seems an integral component of the narrative, and, as one reflects anew upon the more familiar wording of the authorized Bible, the absence of this unfamiliar material seems now to stand out as a lacking:
"And Herod with his men of war set him at naught, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe and sent him again to Pilate.
And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends, for before they were at enmity between themselves."
Nazirenes 81:17
Nice detail. Its inclusion in the narrative doesn’t seem necessary for any theological content or other long-term significance, but it is nonetheless precisely the sort of detail a group of 12 friends might see fit to include in their narrative.
Similar details occur throughout the text. In the authorized Bible, for example, at Jesus’ death it merely reports that the "veil of the Temple was ripped" by a powerful earthquake.
But in what is seemingly the more original, and detail-rich work, "Nazirenes" elaborates convincingly:
"And behold there was great thunder and lightning, and the partition wall of the Holy place, from which hung the veil, fell down, and was rent in two, and the Earth did quake, and the rocks also were rent."
- Nazirenes 82:26
Seemingly minor yet colorful and narratively enriching details like this run throughout this text, giving the compelling impression that this is indeed an original eyewitness narrative, not a bland, confused, or glossed-over retelling of a dusty tradition repeatedly handed down orally for 30 years of more before finally being committed to writing.
Traditional scriptural teachings maintain that the mighty works recorded in the New Testament went unwritten for some 30 years or more before being put down in writing, but this seems to make no sense.
At least some of the apostles were, reportedly, quite literate and learned men, and it seems likely, even prior to encountering a text such as this, that an already close-knit group of 12 learned friends would have quickly pooled and compared their memories in an effort to compose a definitive version of their recollections of the man, teachings, and works of Jesus, before anything of import could be forgotten.
And this text, now available for all to read, constitutes evidence that such a collective testimony not only WAS composed (just as reason suggests it would have been), but successfully survived the centuries after all, even in spite of whatever political forces that might at one time have been aligned against it.
It seems very much as if the authorized Gospels in the present-day Bible were all various edited versions of this "Gospel of the Nazirenes”.
Some material originating in "Nazirenes", it seems, even found its way into the Biblical books of Acts and Revelations.
In many ways, while reading it, the familiar age-old message of the Bible comes through as always; but then one is suddenly jolted upright, finding oneself reading startling passages that directly defend the very NON-Western tradition of reincarnation (along with equally unfamiliar tales of Jesus’ studying various mysteries and wisdom traditions in India and Persia and Egypt, tales of his marriage and the subsequent death of his wife, and much more).
In many places, then, what is written in "Nazirenes" contrasts sharply with the familiar story and message in the authorized Bible.
It teaches strict and uncompromising vegetarianism, describing how Jesus’ anger at the Temple was not merely directed at the financial business going on there, but was specifically over the selling and slaughtering of sacrificial animals in the Temple, which was supposed to be a House of Prayer, but had been changed, he cried, into a slaughterhouse.
The idea that Jesus might have felt outrage at seeing the cruel carnage of innocent creatures in the Holy Temple seems fully consistent with his character as we have collectively come to imagine Him, and this interesting variation of the "moneychangers" story in "Nazirenes" comes across as fully believable. In a word, it has the ring of truth to it.
"Nazirenes" claims that one of the biggest reasons Jesus was so adamantly condemned by the religious authorities of Israel was because he advocated an end to blood sacrifices at the Temple.
To bring an end to these sacrifices, of course, would have completely undermined the financial livelihood of much of the Temple priesthood , and so they would have seen Jesus as embodying a personal threat of no little consequence.
In effect, he went right for their wallets; an act more certain to elicit intense opposition from the Judaic priesthood could scarcely be imagined.
"Nazirenes" also claims, not that Jesus was the "Only Begotten Son", but, phrasing it quite differently, that he was the "First Begotten Son" of God.
The small change in terminology entirely undermines the traditional church’s position that Jesus was a Divine being who simply chose to become human.
Instead, this text now suggests, he was at least also, in some respects, a human who, through persistent effort and faithfulness to "The Law" (perhaps over many lifetimes), had become a Divine being, suggesting the very gnostic notion that anyone else might also attain the same accomplishment, which in turn reminds us all of some of his Biblical comments:
"I have overcome the world." -
John 16: 33
"He who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do...."
John 14:12
In a most modern slant, "Nazirenes" directly advocates euthanasia, but only in cases of extreme suffering.
Always and everywhere throughout the book, the image of Jesus is one utterly dedicated to gentleness and loving care for others.
Many scenes involved Jesus rebuking someone for cruelly inflicting pain on others, whether people or animals.
Reincarnation Integrated into Christian Theology
I am delighted to report that this restored Gospel seems fully consistent with, and in many respects powerfully supports my own work, DivisionTheory, which maintains that the soul and spirit of ancient scripture are the unconscious and conscious of today’s science, which split apart after death, each going on to an entirely separate afterlife experience.
The unconscious soul, carrying one’s memories and emotion, becomes trapped in a self-created heavenly or hellish dreamlike unconscious netherworld of its own creation, while the conscious spirit, carrying the intellect and free will, goes on to a new incarnation utterly oblivious to the fact that it had lived before.
My long-standing fear was that some early Christian text of this degree of apparent authenticity would eventually arise which would decisively EXCLUDE Division Theory from the teachings of Christ (in which case I would be forced to chuck the conclusions of 10 years of work, to which, I admit, I have more than a little ego attachment).
But instead, such a work has now come to light which stands as even more powerful SUPPORT for concluding that Division Theory is indeed an accurate portrayal of those original teachings.
The Afterlife - Losing the Soul
Like DivisionTheory, "Nazirenes" specifically teaches that man is a triune being, composed of body, soul, and spirit (54:14), but also teaches that this triune nature can be violated, that it is, in fact, possible for one to lose one’s soul at death (25:10).
"Salvation", or "eternal life", was specifically described as "saving one’s soul"; but this was contrasted with those who do not "fulfill the Law", and therefore would "lose" their soul at death.
Losing their soul, however, did apparently not mean that one’s whole being would become permanently trapped in some netherworld, nor did it mean ceasing to exist; on the contrary, even if the person "lost" his soul, HE WOULD STILL REINCARNATE, the text insists.
"Losing the soul", then, meant something very different to the writers of this Gospel than that meaning currently assumed in Christian circles.
Just as the only difference between reincarnation and eternal life would seem to be in the issue of saving or losing one’s memories of one’s past, the only difference between saving or losing one’s soul would seem to be the difference between reincarnating as usual or acquiring "eternal life".
In that the concept of reincarnation already incorporates the idea that death does not end one’s existence, the "Nazirenes" concept of "eternal life" apparently means more than simply continuing to exist after one’s physical death.
It means, rather, that one’s memories are retained, one’s sense of self-identity is retained.
And as modern science has taught us that memory is stored in the unconscious, this would require that the unconscious soul not be "lost", but rather be "saved".
The Afterlife - Eternal Life vs. Reincarnation
"Nazirenes" teaches the doctrine of reincarnation as a certainty (69:2, many others), but also teaches that acquiring "eternal life" is only an OPTION.
This "eternal life" is thus NOT merely the eternal life of reincarnating, but was thought to be something merely potentially possible for human beings to achieve, a possibility that should be sought, but by no means was this ‘eternal life" a guaranteed certainty.
Reincarnation was a guaranteed certainty, but "eternal life" was not.
Thus there existed, according to this teaching, some OTHER form of "eternal life" superior to merely reincarnating and forgetting one’s past lives, some OTHER form of continual existence in which one’s past efforts and hard-earned knowledge and wisdom and skills and loves and accomplishments would never be lost again, as is normally the case when reincarnating:
As in Adam, all are bound to cycles of rebirth, so in the Lord shall all be made eternal. Blessed are those who are made perfect .. for... their works do follow them."
- Nazirenes 69:2
And sounding very much like Division Theory indeed, this eternal life, this "perfection", could only be attained by a particular integrative interaction of the unconscious soul and the conscious spirit:
"...every soul may be perfected by the ascent of the soul into the spirit and the descent of the spirit into the soul...."
- Nazirenes 96:16
The Afterlife - Fulfilling "The Law" Within
In order to achieve this eternal life, "The Gospel of the Nazirenes" declares, "The Law" must be fully obeyed.
In this respect this book shows us a very "Jewish" Jesus indeed, with his unequivocal focus on ‘The Law that must be obeyed’.
But "The Law", to THIS Jesus, was not altogether that same Law written in the Hebrew Old Testament, but rather a universal Law pre-written into the inner being of Man.
The true Law given by Moses, THIS Jesus claimed, had been altered and betrayed and adulterated by the priests of Persia during the Jewish people’s captivity there.
The true Law given by Moses was, this scripture maintains, the same ancient Law is always pre-written in the hearts of men - the "Law of Love and the unity of all life in the One-Family of the All-Parent" (24:4).
This work teaches that living according to that inner Law is the key to salvation, Eternal Life, the Kingdom of Heaven.
It teaches that if one experiences hell after death, it is not because one was condemned by God or anyone else, but by being "Self"-condemned (18:1, 46:3).
Whatever hellfires the evil dead suffer after death would be those very same fires they themselves created in their own unconscious souls prior to their deaths....
"Then he shall say to them on his left hand, "Depart from me evil souls into the eternal fires which you have prepared for yourselves."
- Nazirenes 67:11
.. by betraying the Law, the sense of right and wrong, that was pre-written into their inner beings.
Those who did NOT follow and obey the true "Law" would not receive this ‘eternal life”.
They WOULD, however, still continue to reincarnate.
The Afterlife - Reincarnation vs. Resurrection
"The Gospel of the Nazirenes" teaches the Eastern doctrine of reincarnation right alongside the traditional Western doctrine of an eternal heaven and hell; just as in Division Theory, these two traditions are shown united in a single integral vision of Life After Death.
And also like Division Theory, "Nazirenes" ALSO combines the Eastern doctrine of reincarnation with the Western doctrine of a coming Universal resurrection, in which all the world’s dead would simultaneously rise to conscious life.
But including, within the context of reincarnation, this idea of a coming "universal resurrection" at the end of time is a tricky proposition.
How can all the world’s dead rise at the same time into physical bodies when each person shares identities with his own other selves, his numerous past incarnations?
Clearly, such an event would have to be, as Division Theory claims, a time when the memories of past lives and past selves would suddenly flood back into the conscious world, when the dead awaken within us all, within already-living bodies, as opposed to the spontaneously and miraculously reconstituted bodies expected by traditional Western theology:
"The Kingdom is within you. But the time approaches when that which is within shall be made manifest in the without, for the sake of the world."
- Nazirenes 91:3
Judgment Day - Resolving the Doctrinal Conflict Within Nazirenes
Sadly, "Nazirenes" does not clearly spell out how these two co-existing doctrines were successfully integrated in the minds of Jesus and the 12 apostles, but, outside of the Division Theory scenario of spontaneous past-life memory restoration, the Bible’s prophecies of a coming Universal resurrection into physical bodies seem incompatible with the doctrine of reincarnation.
Thus, it seems, only Division Theory resolves the doctrinal conflict that "Nazirenes" presents.
"The Gospel of the Nazirenes" also teaches that, even at Judgment Day, the evil souls of the world will, even then, still have one last chance to repent and turn and be saved (40:7, 46:23, 67:15), a conclusion which Division Theory also arrived at, but a teaching which does not seem to appear in the traditional Bible.
"Nazirenes" is in full agreement with both Division Theory and the Biblical Gospels on at least one point: "Nazirenes" entirely supports the doctrine of the existence of the devil.
As with Division Theory, "Nazirenes" Last Day vision describes a time in which all humanity will end up sharing possession and experience of a common conscious component, the same conscious and autonomous spirit ultimately dwelling in the psyches of each of us, looking out through the eyes of each of us, riding right alongside each of us in our own minds, simultaneously dwelling in the psyche of each living person on earth:
"We shall teach The Way to prepare your children for the indwelling Universal Messiah."
- Nazirenes 96:20
Metaphysics - Making the Two One
As with Division Theory, and the gnostic "Gospel of Thomas", "Gospel of Philip", and "Gospel of Truth" found at Nag Hammadi, reconciling and integrating the dual nature of all being is a main focus of "Nazirenes". God is repeatedly called not "Father", but the Father-Mother, or the All- Parent.
His attributes are repeatedly described with equal-but-opposite word pairings such as "Love and Wisdom", head and heart", "soul and spirit", "within and without", "right and left", and "male and female", and the "Oneness" of this divine pair, by whatever name, is constantly being mentioned, advocated, and described.
"And a certain prophet seeing [Jesus] said to him, "Behold the Love and the Wisdom of the Most High are One in thee...."
- Nazirenes 6:5
These things being done, Jesus spoke these words ...:Thou has glorified me, Thou has filled my heart with fire. Thou has set lamps on my right hand and my left, so that no part of my being should be without light. Thy Love shines on my right hand, and Thy Wisdom on my left."
- Nazirenes 76:11-12
"No one knows thee, save a Son, who also has the Daughter within; or a Daughter, who also has the Son within. No one know the Daughter or the Son save those to whom the Holy Spirit is revealed, who is the Two-in-One."
- Nazirenes 44:14
"Far and near, the All-Parent knows His own. Yes, in each of you, the Fatherhood and the Motherhood may be seen; for the Father and the Mother are One in the All-Parent".
- Nazirenes 50:8
Like Division Theory, and like the Gnostic Gospels recently unearthed in Egypt, "Nazirenes" declares that salvation comes through the reconciliation and integration of the two primordial elements of being:
"As it is above, so below. As it is within, so it is without. As on the right hand, so on the left. As it is before, so it is behind.
As with the great so with the small.
As with the male, so with the female.
When these things shall be seen, then you shall see the Kingdom of the Most High.
For in me there is neither male not female, yet both are One.
The woman is not without the man, nor is the man without the woman-isdom is not without Love, nor is Love without Wisdom.
The head is not without the heart, nor is the heart without the head, in the Holy Spirit which atones all things."
- Nazirenes 52:9-11
And one of them said, "Teacher, it is written of old, 'The Elohim made man in their own image, male and female created they them.' How can you say then that the Lord is one?"
And Jesus said to them,
"Verily I say to you, in the Lord there is neither male nor female and yet both are one, and the Lord is the Two in One.
He is She and She is He.
The Lord is Perfect, Infinite, and One... the Elohim created man in the Divine Image male and female, therefore is the Lord both male and female, not divided, but the Two in One, Undivided and Eternal."
- Nazirenes 64:2, 6
And one said to him,
"Teacher, when shall the Kingdom come?"
And he answered and said,
"When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the Two in One.
They who have ears to hear, let them hear."
- Nazirenes 66:12
Curious indeed Skare! I've not put a lot of effort into understanding the way the New Testament came into existence from a scholarly point of view so I only have impressions. I understand it is beyond doubt that there was a Gospel document written before the Gospels as we know them which was available to Matthew and Luke but lost long ago. It seems highly unlikely that the document these authors are working with is the same thing. Off the top thoughts
If the 12 apostles did get together and write a very early gospel, St Paul would surely have referred to it and quoted from it in his epistles, which are the earliest of surviving NT writings. Paul was very learned and would have used anything like this as an aid in his missionary work.
The theology is so far removed from nearly 2000 years of understanding that it beggars belief it could be it's antecedent and yet remain so obscure. There does seem to be a link to gnostic and eastern religious thinking in there - Christian infuenced variants of these came into existence pretty early on among esoteric sects and it could be that is where the ideas are coming from, if not from rather more modern sources.
The early Christian church was prone to splitting into factions that held their own variations of core belief - the Arian branch very nearly took over the Christian world for example - but these were much closer to orthodoxy than this seems to be. Again it seems to me if it really is an apostolic document then it would have had a lot of adherents who would have kicked up the same sort of stink as any other of these controversies did. The scraps would have been very obvious in the historical records even if their theological writings didn't survive.
It's very hard to conclude Christ did not claim to be God as presented in all the New Testament writings. The only conclusion that can be rationally drawn from them on this score is that he was God, or mad or bad (as CS Lewis says). The Jewish Law was the keystone of the chosen people as expressed in worship at the Temple. Christ very explicilty, deliberately and loudly proclaimed that he had come to fulfil the Law by replacing it and the Temple with his own person - and at the same time extended the idea of a chosen people to all mankind. It was this threat and the blasphemy that the authorities perceived in it that lead to his execution. It's very hard to see this concept as derived from the teachings implied in the article.
Where do I stand personally on all this? Fascinated is one response - as I am with the Gnostics. I don't find them particularly appealing though because they don't echo with my own inner spiritual direction - they seem to complicate things instead of simplifying them the deeper you try and go with them and that seems intuitively the wrong direction to me. I understand the dissatisfaction that people have with one of the apparent unfairnesses of Christian life - you get one life then that's it - judgement! And some people get 100 years to get it right and others get far less time. And how could a loving god condemn anyone to eternal suffering as a punishment. Hindu and Buddhist teaching is very different and that's where I'd go for an alternative if I were looking for one because they very definitely simplify with depth and walk all the way with you. The theology is so far removed from nearly 2000 years of understanding that it beggars belief it could be it's antecedent and yet remain so obscure. There does seem to be a link to gnostic and eastern religious thinking in there - Christian infuenced variants of these came into existence pretty early on among esoteric sects and it could be that is where the ideas are coming from, if not from rather more modern sources.
The early Christian church was prone to splitting into factions that held their own variations of core belief - the Arian branch very nearly took over the Christian world for example - but these were much closer to orthodoxy than this seems to be. Again it seems to me if it really is an apostolic document then it would have had a lot of adherents who would have kicked up the same sort of stink as any other of these controversies did. The scraps would have been very obvious in the historical records even if their theological writings didn't survive.
It's very hard to conclude Christ did not claim to be God as presented in all the New Testament writings. The only conclusion that can be rationally drawn from them on this score is that he was God, or mad or bad (as CS Lewis says). The Jewish Law was the keystone of the chosen people as expressed in worship at the Temple. Christ very explicilty, deliberately and loudly proclaimed that he had come to fulfil the Law by replacing it and the Temple with his own person - and at the same time extended the idea of a chosen people to all mankind. It was this threat and the blasphemy that the authorities perceived in it that lead to his execution. It's very hard to see this concept as derived from the teachings implied in the article.
I suspect that something like reincarnation takes place within the Christian framework as well - but not necessarily rebirth into our world. My own experience of approaching God is that it lights up your shadow like some hellish Christmas tree and its not possible to stand it despite the unconditional love he gives you - we need to accept and then deal with our shadows before we can get close, and I think we will be given all the help and opportunity we need to do that if we want it, but it may well need the equivalent of many lifetimes to achieve. Your article warning that not all spiritual experience is 'nice' is absolutely right and the light and the dark experiences are both vital. Like I said earlier, a lot of trouble has been taken to bring us into existence and I don't think anything is going to be wasted.
Hope all this brain-dumping makes some kind of sense. Yet again many thanks for posting such fascinating, thought-provoking and beuatiful articles ♥
D
Deleted member 16771
LMFAOAnd the "self-fuckening prophecy" is when your day is amazing and you're thinking: "It will obviously get worse", and it does as a result of having that thought.
D
Deleted member 16771
THIS. Some churchman or other would have taken credit for ending that particular heresy (though this is quite some time before we can accurately talk about 'heresies').
The only thing I can think of is that they might have been subject to damnatio memoriae, but that is some seriously conspiratorial thinking.
@Skarekrow
Reincarnation has always been in the Bible though not directly in an obvious manner but sadly we've all been blind to it in the church, a minority of pastors are aware of it but they don't speak out for reasons of either being kicked out of their churches or being written off by the church as crackpots or worse cult leaders ect. It is fun though to find accounts that verify the events of the Bible and what it was like back then, in short those times were Hard in daily life.
Reincarnation has always been in the Bible though not directly in an obvious manner but sadly we've all been blind to it in the church, a minority of pastors are aware of it but they don't speak out for reasons of either being kicked out of their churches or being written off by the church as crackpots or worse cult leaders ect. It is fun though to find accounts that verify the events of the Bible and what it was like back then, in short those times were Hard in daily life.
I’ll take a further look...I do believe that the Gospel of St. Thomas makes references to reincarnation as well...though, that is also a contentious chapter.
Yes...it makes perfect sense.
Though I tend not to rely on Christian theology personally (though certain aspects are interesting and it isn’t without merit).
I’ll see what I can dig up...that was the first link on my go-to search page for such things.
May your hearts be at peace!
Yes...if I remember correctly didn’t Jesus say that someone was the same soul as this former person?
Man...am I good with names or what? hahaha
I’ll have to find some good articles...that one had some obscure references.
Thanks!!
@John K
This is usually a good source as well...just too long to post:
The early Christians were Jews who followed Jesus' teachings of obeying the law of God but did not renounce their Jewish heritage and religion as Paul did.
They were believers in the special teachings of Jesus handed down directly from the twelve apostles but were not given to the general public.
These secret or "hidden" teachings involve two forms of the concept of resurrection:
(1) a spiritual resurrection or spiritual rebirth by the Holy Spirit known as becoming born again, and
(2) a bodily resurrection or bodily re-birth of a human spirit known as reincarnation.
The champion of this lost doctrine of the resurrection was the early Church Father Origen (185-232 A.D.) who was the first theologian after Paul to develop a system of theology around the teachings of Jesus.
Unfortunately, Origen's teachings on pre-existence and its corresponding principle called reincarnation were declared heresy and condemned at the Synod of Constantinople in 543 A.D. and was ratified by the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553 A.D.
The following articles re-establish reincarnation as the correct interpretation of "the resurrection of the dead" as defined by Jesus and the Bible, early Judeo-Christian and Church writings, and the history of early Christianity.
Reincarnation in the Bible Part 1-
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history/bible-01.html
Reincarnation in Judaism and Christianity (Main Page) -
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history.html
This is usually a good source as well...just too long to post:
The early Judeo-Christian writings discovered in 1945 along with the amazing discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947 have given scholars a better picture of the beliefs early Christians.The early Christians were Jews who followed Jesus' teachings of obeying the law of God but did not renounce their Jewish heritage and religion as Paul did.
They were believers in the special teachings of Jesus handed down directly from the twelve apostles but were not given to the general public.
These secret or "hidden" teachings involve two forms of the concept of resurrection:
(1) a spiritual resurrection or spiritual rebirth by the Holy Spirit known as becoming born again, and
(2) a bodily resurrection or bodily re-birth of a human spirit known as reincarnation.
The champion of this lost doctrine of the resurrection was the early Church Father Origen (185-232 A.D.) who was the first theologian after Paul to develop a system of theology around the teachings of Jesus.
Unfortunately, Origen's teachings on pre-existence and its corresponding principle called reincarnation were declared heresy and condemned at the Synod of Constantinople in 543 A.D. and was ratified by the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553 A.D.
The following articles re-establish reincarnation as the correct interpretation of "the resurrection of the dead" as defined by Jesus and the Bible, early Judeo-Christian and Church writings, and the history of early Christianity.
Reincarnation in the Bible Part 1-
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history/bible-01.html
Reincarnation in Judaism and Christianity (Main Page) -
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history.html
That’s it....Jesus said John was Elijah and they were one and the same soul.
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1 trillion seconds is 11,574,074.1 days or 31,709.792 years lmfao
Fascinating - thanks for pointing me at this material. Of course reincarnation is absolutely fundamental to orthodox Christianity - albeit in a very particular form on the ‘last day’. There is no question of reanimated corpses either really - but of ‘perfected’ bodies. I think that the return of Elijah is a great example of reincarnation back into the world - similar to noting that astrology successfully predicted and located the birth of Christ as accurately as a modern gps lol.@John K
This is usually a good source as well...just too long to post:
The early Judeo-Christian writings discovered in 1945 along with the amazing discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947 have given scholars a better picture of the beliefs early Christians.
The early Christians were Jews who followed Jesus' teachings of obeying the law of God but did not renounce their Jewish heritage and religion as Paul did.
They were believers in the special teachings of Jesus handed down directly from the twelve apostles but were not given to the general public.
These secret or "hidden" teachings involve two forms of the concept of resurrection:
(1) a spiritual resurrection or spiritual rebirth by the Holy Spirit known as becoming born again, and
(2) a bodily resurrection or bodily re-birth of a human spirit known as reincarnation.
The champion of this lost doctrine of the resurrection was the early Church Father Origen (185-232 A.D.) who was the first theologian after Paul to develop a system of theology around the teachings of Jesus.
Unfortunately, Origen's teachings on pre-existence and its corresponding principle called reincarnation were declared heresy and condemned at the Synod of Constantinople in 543 A.D. and was ratified by the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553 A.D.
The following articles re-establish reincarnation as the correct interpretation of "the resurrection of the dead" as defined by Jesus and the Bible, early Judeo-Christian and Church writings, and the history of early Christianity.
Reincarnation in the Bible Part 1-
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history/bible-01.html
Reincarnation in Judaism and Christianity (Main Page) -
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history.html
Personally I find that most discussion of this sort of thing is like one of my own interminable Ni/Ti loops - endlessly rewarding and frustrating at the same time, because it’s difficult to anchor it. But I do love playing with this ....
For example one thing I find curious about reincarnation is what it implies about the relationship between soul and body. Could any body host any soul? Is the soul a bit like a parasite then, or a symbiot? Or is our reality totally different to how we experience it? Perhaps the world is really just a surface of a greater reality that we can only dimly perceive and our bodies are really like the 3D extrusions of 5 Dimensional Hitchhiker’s white mice.
Lots of talk about this falls apart on time. If you are outside time then it makes no sense to talk of duration. It doesn’t matter if our individual soul gets reincarnated long after this universe has gone, if we don’t have any sensation of duration. Nor does it make sense to talk of sequences of events because the sequencing would create some form of time.
Again, there is a natural belief that we either end or move on after death but I think this is coloured by illusion. Our experience of the world as something unfolding in time is probably far from it’s intrinsic reality - it exists across all time as a static completeness. Our individual life stories are written indelibly into it and don’t cease to exist when we move outside their time periods, either before or after. This suggests that our true nature simultaneously exists across all the worlds and incarnations that make up our being throughout all aspects of god’s many mansions. Of course we aren’t aware of this in our present life except dimly - maybe we come here to get some relief from the ultimate reality vortex of having total access to the whole of our being in other worlds lol.
Anyway enough looping
. I’ll have another look at the articles when I’m on a proper computer instead of an iPhone.Wishing you all the peace in the world
@Skarekrow
Have you ever come across a guy called Thomas Campbell - his ideas sound very much on the Merkabah wavelength. I just wondered what your take is on his theories. Web link to his site :
https://www.my-big-toe.com/
I haven’t explored this link very far yet but I’m part way through reading his 3 volume book - My Big Toe,
Have you ever come across a guy called Thomas Campbell - his ideas sound very much on the Merkabah wavelength. I just wondered what your take is on his theories. Web link to his site :
https://www.my-big-toe.com/
I haven’t explored this link very far yet but I’m part way through reading his 3 volume book - My Big Toe,
Yes!
He’s very interesting to listen to...I’ve posted a couple of lectures he has given somewhere within the pages of the thread...hahaha.
I have heard of his books though I have yet to read them...I’ll have to put it on my hold list at the library!
(I’ll post up a lecture or two of his on here that I haven’t yet)
Get back with you on the post above this one on reincarnation...don’t have very long at the moment!
Have a wonderful new year and may your heart be at peace!!
Every blessing on you and yours Skare.
Fascinating - thanks for pointing me at this material. Of course reincarnation is absolutely fundamental to orthodox Christianity - albeit in a very particular form on the ‘last day’. There is no question of reanimated corpses either really - but of ‘perfected’ bodies. I think that the return of Elijah is a great example of reincarnation back into the world - similar to noting that astrology successfully predicted and located the birth of Christ as accurately as a modern gps lol.
Personally I find that most discussion of this sort of thing is like one of my own interminable Ni/Ti loops - endlessly rewarding and frustrating at the same time, because it’s difficult to anchor it. But I do love playing with this ....
For example one thing I find curious about reincarnation is what it implies about the relationship between soul and body. Could any body host any soul? Is the soul a bit like a parasite then, or a symbiot? Or is our reality totally different to how we experience it? Perhaps the world is really just a surface of a greater reality that we can only dimly perceive and our bodies are really like the 3D extrusions of 5 Dimensional Hitchhiker’s white mice.
Lots of talk about this falls apart on time. If you are outside time then it makes no sense to talk of duration. It doesn’t matter if our individual soul gets reincarnated long after this universe has gone, if we don’t have any sensation of duration. Nor does it make sense to talk of sequences of events because the sequencing would create some form of time.
Again, there is a natural belief that we either end or move on after death but I think this is coloured by illusion. Our experience of the world as something unfolding in time is probably far from it’s intrinsic reality - it exists across all time as a static completeness. Our individual life stories are written indelibly into it and don’t cease to exist when we move outside their time periods, either before or after. This suggests that our true nature simultaneously exists across all the worlds and incarnations that make up our being throughout all aspects of god’s many mansions. Of course we aren’t aware of this in our present life except dimly - maybe we come here to get some relief from the ultimate reality vortex of having total access to the whole of our being in other worlds lol.
Anyway enough looping
Wishing you all the peace in the world
Yes!
That is exactly what I was referring to!
I totally get what you mean about creating frustrating loops about it - though imho entheogens help with spiritual loops as well, so there is some kind of existential relief that you can gain from them - which is helpful too if you keep getting nailed with existential dread randomly in my experience.
But besides that, I understand the frustration...it’s like my experience with the paranormal...it’s frustrating to me that there is not more solid evidence out there and that there isn’t more attention being paid to such things - but that is subjective to me and I understand why others would scoff at that...which is fine, but try to at least maintain some semblance of an open mind people would ya?
Yes...I agree about time...I find it is most likely our own construct or a construct created for us or by us or both simultaneously, lol.
I’m not so sure about that “old soul” business for just that reason...if we have lived past lives, then we are living them right now...at the same time.
Are we holograms, or living on the surface of a bubble, projections/protrusions from a higher dimension, or are we purely physical flesh and blood and when we die we die?
It would be cool if we could find some proof of one or the other in some tangible way...but alas, I feel that is built into the “program”...to not let us see the inner working or understand the workings of certain things past a certain point.
Perhaps though that is just my inability to imagine the future possibilities with my 21st century mind...could be that too?
"Again, there is a natural belief that we either end or move on after death but I think this is coloured by illusion. Our experience of the world as something unfolding in time is probably far from it’s intrinsic reality - it exists across all time as a static completeness. Our individual life stories are written indelibly into it and don’t cease to exist when we move outside their time periods, either before or after. This suggests that our true nature simultaneously exists across all the worlds and incarnations that make up our being throughout all aspects of god’s many mansions. Of course we aren’t aware of this in our present life except dimly - maybe we come here to get some relief from the ultimate reality vortex of having total access to the whole of our being in other worlds lol."
Couldn’t agree more with that John! ^^^^
And you’ve written it in such a beautiful poetic manner as always.
I’ve had my own experiences that make me seriously question this reality, but again, in frustration, there is very little proof other than my words and the few witnesses to back them up.
But then again...I also think...that this life/experience here is to be perceived as separate in nature...to be alone...to feel cut off...to find the connection on our own though we are actually connected to all and all is us - there are ways we can see/feel/know that truth.
But the proof will mostly likely always be subjective past a certain point.
Then you have to use the “F” word...”faith”.
Much love to you and your own!!
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