i don't mind if everyone becomes a nancy boy or a butch, i think it's hot. actually i might make it my mission.
while these ideas are gaining circulation, what is expressed on this forums might constitute a slightly more progressive-thinking subsection of society than what is the norm. i think there are some pretty powerful, massive traditionalist movements going around, maybe even a resurgence. it might take a while. parenting is valuable so stay at home and raise the baby: your entire life!! it might take a while.
Though what's really wrong with traditionalism? I agree with @mf that people should be free to be who they are without cultural restraints, but traditional expectations for male and female behavior have had their positive influences on society too. For one thing, I think a lot of people form their identities around how much they conform to (or oppose) social stereotypes, and having an identity (a stable ego) is probably important to one's mental health, and to social cohesion in general. Racism for instance has the reverse positive effect of uniting those who feel oppressed... it's probably similar with other stereotypes. So in a round about way, the prevalence of traditional beliefs about how to behave is probably helping people somewhat. *shrugs* Just an idea.
It does seem to be going in that direction, doesn't it? I wonder if in the future gender roles will be completely obliterated, and society will move towards a pure meritocracy.
I sure hope they become obliterated in the future. Not because I want every guy to be a "nancy-boy" or every woman to be "butch", just so people can start being the way they want to be without having to feel bad or conflicted about it.
I don't actually think that will solve the problem like you think it will. I'm sure the stereotypes exist at least in part because there are a fairly significant percentage of men and women who fit them naturally. If the stereotype became that everyone acted the same, then you can bet that the current gender stereotypes will be looked down upon as something we 'overcame'. So the people who don't fall "somewhere in the middle" will be outcasted instead.
This kind of sounds like a classic case of "if we were just in power, things would be better/fair for everyone." History shows that it just never seems to work that way.
There is evidence to believe that gender constructs are something that we learn just like stereotypes for these man-made things. Obviously man and female roles will exist, and are needed to continue the survival of mankind. Of course I'm being extremely optimistic in describing my desired outcome, but if I wasn't what would be the point in even trying to work for change?I don't actually think that will solve the problem like you think it will. I'm sure the stereotypes exist at least in part because there are a fairly significant percentage of men and women who fit them naturally. If the stereotype became that everyone acted the same, then you can bet that the current gender stereotypes will be looked down upon as something we 'overcame'. So the people who don't fall "somewhere in the middle" will be outcasted instead.
This kind of sounds like a classic case of "if we were just in power, things would be better/fair for everyone." History shows that it just never seems to work that way.
Probly 'cause I'm still young... but I find the world almost stifling in how much it almost demonizes much of manhood.
Not likely an answer you're going to get from most INFJs...but probably just because I have the detached/calm/emotionless part of it down pretty naturally, so I don't feel forced into those stereotypes at all. I think I can make my case for it, though.
Skim through the TV and look at any male figures in most shows. At least a few years back (I haven't watched much tv, besides anime, in a long while), if it was a family sitcom it was almost guaranteed that the dad was some sort of bumbling screw-up, while his wife held everything together. The Homer Simpsons, Peter Griffins, Tim Taylors, and Ray... Ray... damnit, I can't remember his last name, but the guy from Everybody Loves Raymond, fill the airwaves with bumbling incompetence and virtually always have to apologize to their wives (who never seem to make any mistakes) constantly. I know there are a few other shows like this too, but I can't remember their names anymore. It was extraordinarily annoying, though.
Parents and schools also seemed extremely anti-aggression. My elementary school adminstration seemed to pour all their attention into trying to make school a nice/"safe from bullies" atmosphere--not that they were great at it, of course, but that was kind of their stated goal. We were also told pretty much always (by faculty and parents) that violence was never a proper answer. Sports are also looked at as a kind of stereotypically "dumb" thing to do. Even though professional athletes make more money than almost every other profession, it's kind of engrained into our minds (an an episode of Fresh Prince of Bel Air comes to mind) that people should only use their athletic ability to help pay for college, where they can get their education and therefore have something that's actually "valuable"--because physical shape or skills just aren't worth anything for whatever reason. Similarly, a lot of the "typically immature/dumb" things that people do for fun get attached as stereotypes for men, even when there's nothing particularly masculine about it. At least, it's always seemed like that to me. A good example of this would be binge drinking, which sticks out in my mind as a general frat-guy stereotype, although I can't figure out why. From what I've seen, I'm pretty sure both sexes enjoy a good drunken outing in roughly equal proportions.
If I were to be honest.... I think this traces back to the days where women virtually always stayed at home and raised the kids, in centuries past. Without the balance, kids were taught feminine values, which they then taught to their kids, etc. The reason I started this post with "might just be because I'm young" is because my parents held onto treating me like a child faaaar past my time, and as a general rule men don't like being confined. So some of the (probably pretty clear by this point, if you're still reading) resentment I have over this is because my desire for adventure and some danger has largely been squished under the "gotta keep him safe, because that's a parents' duty" sentiment--and I do think that restless/adventurous spirit is a typically male thing to have. So keeping a child safe by denying them choices stifles young men in two ways.
So coming from a youngish male who grew up in a safety-first home in a country that seems to idolize dealing with things in a feminine way, I would describe being a modern man as: highly frustrating.
also: I don't think we've talked much, but this is a really nice thread. I'm pretty amazed with all the unique discussion topics I've seen you bring up in all my time here.
I largely agree with you, and the over-kill in protecting females from the atrocities of male dominance has permeated our culture in fundamental ways, bullshit like reviving Ophelia, and the myth of the fragile diminishing woman has led to a battering of males in our culture, especially young boys, especially in school. Schools have changed so much into a pro-female way of teaching that the gender achievement gap for males is dire, males are being left behind scholastically with programs specifically designed to make learning for them harder, and competing for them harder.
A great book on this subject is "The war against boys" by C. Hoff Sommers. A VERY fantastic read for anyone who has a young son, or wants to see how misguided anti male feminism has crushed boys in our society.
Amazon.com: The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men (9780684849560): Christina Hoff Sommers: Books
for you kindle readers.
...the over-kill in protecting females from the atrocities of male dominance has permeated our culture in fundamental ways, bullshit like reviving Ophelia, and the myth of the fragile diminishing woman has led to a battering of males in our culture, especially young boys, especially in school.
In some ways, being a modern man is no different than being a man has ever been. The situation changes, but the essence of what it is to be a man never has, and never will.
Ha! I open doors for people all the time, don't give a fuck.An example of this would be holding a door open... at this point I do this for everyone and anyone save if I'm late for something. I've been thanked and called a chauvinist and quite a few things in between.
Boring.Same (mostly)
- Beer
- Eat
- Work
- Beer
- Sports
Boring.
Let's become astronauts.