Let's talk about women in powerplay

[Asa]

Thanks for the clarification. Actually I'm confused as to what it means exactly.

Yeah, because as with anything, all different people think, feel, and act differently and when they act under a label it tints that label, at least in the eyes of those who see that person's actions.
But at large, negativity about feminism stems from misogyny.
You don't have to be radical to believe in equality.

In this discussion I'm automatically drawn to speaking up about institutionalized misogyny. A lot of cultural habits including women treating men like sex objects, mistreatment of women by women, women who are against other women by default, and other behaviors that reinforce masculine as dominant and female as inferior such as being unemotional, being tough, companies that only want to hire women who are not planning on having children, etc, is part of institutionalized misogyny. Obvious misogyny includes unequal pay for the same work, being passed over for promotions, being sexually harassed or assaulted, have one's promotions and work affected by perceived prettiness, being "unheard", being belittled, etc. Also, lack of maternity leave and childcare options are misogynist. (Let's keep in mind that for a lot of women, specifically poor women and minorities, staying home with children to raise strong, healthy families was never an option and for them, feminism would help make that possible.) Judging women for their perceived sexual habits (slut shaming or calling people frigid), judging over their clothing and make-up choices, etc... all misogyny. – The reason I mention this is because a lot of feminists will pick on women for wearing make-up and heels, when feminism is about choices. Choice to stay home and raise kids. Choice to have a career. Choice to wear gender ambiguous clothing. Choice to wear a tight dress and stilettos.

When men complain, "But women talk about us like we're sex objects!" - Well, welcome to institutionalized misogyny where a male dominance social trait has now advanced to include men as the topic because women are encouraged to behave "like men do" in a male-dominated society. (And I'm not saying women don't have libidos, because we do, but that whole ritual of rating people amongst one's peers and objectifying said people is a male dominance social practice.)

So, what kinds of misogyny have I experienced in the workplace? Most of it.

During the 80s and 90s misogyny was normalized, so a lot of things happened, or were said, that women were expected to put up with. I can't even list the instances. But during my last day job as a shop girl a few years ago I experienced a lot of blatant objectification and misogyny, too, and my boss considered himself a feminist. :/

I don't have kids, so I never had to deal with the garbage mothers can face in the workplace and when interviewing. During interviews I have been asked if I planned on having kids, which is an illegal question. Most interview questions that ask women about marital status, children, and pregnancy are illegal on state and/or federal level. (To get around this, they may have someone chat casually with you before the interview. Don't tell the "chat person" answers to these questions, either.)

 

[Asa]

In short, I prefer Rosie the Riveter over Anita Sarkeesian.

As a man, you don't get to say what feminism 'should be' and how women gain equality. The discomfort some feminists cause wouldn't have to happen if men readily gave women equality.


Edit to say: I'm not saying you, specifically, don't want to give women equality.

 

[MoonFlier]

Yeah, because as with anything, all different people think, feel, and act differently and when they act under a label it tints that label, at least in the eyes of those who see that person's actions.
But at large, negativity about feminism stems from misogyny.
You don't have to be radical to believe in equality.

In this discussion I'm automatically drawn to speaking up about institutionalized misogyny. A lot of cultural habits including women treating men like sex objects, mistreatment of women by women, women who are against other women by default, and other behaviors that reinforce masculine as dominant and female as inferior such being unemotional, being tough, companies that only want to hire women who are not planning on having children, etc, is part of institutionalized misogyny. Obvious misogyny includes unequal pay for the same work, being passed over for promotions, being sexually harassed or assaulted, have one's promotions and work affected by perceived prettiness, being "unheard", being belittled, etc. Also, lack of maternity leave and childcare options are misogynist. (Let's keep in mind that for a lot of women, specifically poor women and minorities, staying home with children to raise strong, healthy families was never an option and for them, feminism would help make that possible.) Judging women for their perceived sexual habits (slut shaming or calling people frigid), judging over their clothing and make-up choices, etc... all misogyny. – The reason I mention this is because a lot of feminists will pick on women for wearing make-up and heels, when feminism is about choices. Choice to stay home and raise kids. Choice to have a career. Choice to wear gender ambiguous clothing. Choice to wear a tight dress and stilettos.

When men complain, "But women talk about us like we're sex objects!" - Well, welcome to institutionalized misogyny where a male dominance social trait has now advanced to include men as the topic because women are encouraged to behave "like men do" in a male-dominated society. (And I'm not saying women don't have libidos, because we do, but that whole ritual of rating people amongst one's peers and objectifying said people is a male dominance social practice.)

So, what kinds of misogyny have I experienced in the workplace? Most of it.

During the 80s and 90s misogyny was normalized, so a lot of things happened, or were said, that women were expected to put up with. I can't even list the instances. But during my last day job as a shop girl a few years ago I experienced a lot of blatant objectification and misogyny, too, and my boss considered himself a feminist. :/

I don't have kids, so I never had to deal with the garbage mothers can face in the workplace and when interviewing. During interviews I have been asked if I planned on having kids, which is an illegal question. Most interview questions that ask women about marital status, children, and pregnancy are illegal on state and/or federal level. (To get around this, they may have someone chat casually with you before the interview. Don't tell the "chat person" answers to these questions, either.)

I like this. Very well said.

Please pardon if I go off on a tangent here, something you said above (highlighted in blue) triggered an issue I struggled with as a young woman in college and the workplace. The issue seems to stem from marketing, movies and the antique notions some still hold that women must be dressed up and pretty, and so we grow up trying to be as pretty as we can be. We say it's for ourselves, but in all honesty we're just conforming and trying not to be given that "ugly" label that others are too quick to toss at women.

When a college girl wears a miniskirt and shows off a small waist, in her mind she's being cute and comfortable. In the mind of many men (and some women) she's being provocative. When this young woman goes on to work in an office and struggles to figure out how to dress that is acceptable but not old-lady like she might opt for heels and some pretty textured see-though shirts layered.. at least that's what I did. I was told I was being too sexual for the office. In my opinion there was nothing sexual about my outfit. Even now, looking back at what I wore, they were fine for my age and for the office.

Men have it easy - toss on some jeans and a polo and they're good for casual dress day. What is a woman supposed to do? It's all very unfair.

 

[Wyote]

I like seeing women on top, it's very sexy. Pretty sure women feel the same about men.

 

[Icedream]

As a man, you don't get to say what feminism 'should be' and how women gain equality. The discomfort some feminists cause wouldn't have to happen if men readily gave women equality.

How would you feel about a group called Masculists, who fought to get more shelters for men who have experienced rape or abuse?

 

[Asa]

@MoonFlier - Yes, there is so much history, symbolism, baggage, etc, with clothing. I understand what you're saying. It's a complicated topic.

My Feminist Philosophy teacher at my university (in the 90s) wore pencil skirts and stilettos with a blouse. Many of the students were scandalized because feminists are supposed to reject beauty standards. There were a lot of negative reactions and she addressed them. First class, first lecture: we can wear what we want, we can look how we want. (Next class, misogyny in Marxist theory.)

Women's blouses are typically a bit sheer. Layering a sheer shirt over an opaque one is perfectly reasonable and is not provocative. There is a viral tweet where a man wrote about how his boss claimed women deserve to be objectified because of the way they present themselves. The boss used a headshot from Linked In as an example. It's a head shot and there is nothing provocative about her photo. Your story reminds me of this.

 

[Asa]

How would you feel about a group called Masculists, who fought to get more shelters for men who have experienced rape or abuse?

I think men need spaces to discuss those experiences, find support, and to have a safe space to be vulnerable and heal.

 

[BritNi]

I like seeing women on top, it's very sexy. Pretty sure women feel the same about men.

I agree.

I like men in power if they use is right.

 

[BritNi]

I'm not a feminist. I'm a humanist, and I think gender is irrelevant.

If a person has worked their way to the top, and they practice their power in all fairness: that's what's up.

I feel like people overcomplicate things like this. Look at each individual as an individual. It shouldn't be so hard.

Amirite?

 

[mintoots]

I like seeing women on top, it's very sexy. Pretty sure women feel the same about men.

Not necessarily. My first instinct would be to probe whether or not the man is a misogynst. In my culture, it takes a very rare man (and woman) to get up the ladder without tolerance for sexism.

A sexy man is a man who is comfortable with himself, his brains, and the humanity of people around him, from power people to people at the bottom of the food chain.

 

[BritNi]

Not necessarily. My first instinct would be to probe whether or not the man is a misogynst. In my culture, it takes a very rare man (and woman) to get up the ladder without tolerance for sexism.

If you don't know the man, and you see him. In a suit and in a position of power, you won't think he's hot?

I mean... You don't have to know someone to find them attractive?

 

[BritNi]

I don't even know what I'm arguing.


People are sexy.

Goodnight.

 

[Icedream]

I don't even know what I'm arguing.


People are sexy.

Goodnight.

New thread coming soon

 

[BritNi]

New thread coming soon

Lol.
Yay!

We can talk about how people are sexy?

 

[mintoots]

@MoonFlier - Yes, there is so much history, symbolism, baggage, etc, with clothing. I understand what you're saying. It's a complicated topic.

My Feminist Philosophy teacher at my university (in the 90s) wore pencil skirts and stilettos with a blouse. Many of the students were scandalized because feminists are supposed to reject beauty standards. There were a lot of negative reactions and she addressed them. First class, first lecture: we can wear what we want, we can look how we want. (Next class, misogyny in Marxist theory.)

Women's blouses are typically a bit sheer. Layering a sheer shirt over an opaque one is perfectly reasonable and is not provocative. There is a viral tweet where a man wrote about how his boss claimed women deserve to be objectified because of the way they present themselves. The boss used a headshot from Linked In as an example. It's a head shot and there is nothing provocative about her photo. Your story reminds me of this.

Clothes. And then people bring in the argument about how indigenous people are typically clothes free but are not raped acceptably.

What is provocative is typically different for every culture and person. Sadly, not all cultures are tolerant of female expression. Which brings me to wonder about the biological validity of this "provocation": are men really biologically stimulated by all forms of boobs? No. Put the same provocative clothing on a 60 year old granny and lemme hear them cry about appropriate clothing for women. It is not clothing, per se that astounds men, and people. It is the shameless display of beauty.

 

[Icedream]

Lol.
Yay!

We can talk about how people are sexy?

Yes!

 

[mintoots]

If you don't know the man, and you see him. In a suit and in a position of power, you won't think he's hot?

I mean... You don't have to know someone to find them attractive?

Nope. Maybe i'm a sapiosexual. I recognize the hotness, but it doesn't necessarily leave me intrigued and wanting.

 

[Wyote]

Not necessarily

It's my subjective opinion lol so yes, necessarily.
There are cultural differences sure, but there are also human instincts which override cultural stuff.
Power is sexy. Not to everyone, but as a generality.

 

[mintoots]

I think men need spaces to discuss those experiences, find support, and to have a safe space to be vulnerable and heal.

Agreed. I know a case like this. He is a man who dearly loves his wife that when she started beating him, at first playfully, and then verbally abusing him, he stayed making all excuses. It was a power dominance problem not based on gender.

 

[mintoots]

It's my subjective opinion lol so yes, necessarily.
There are cultural differences sure, but there are also human instincts which override cultural stuff.
Power is sexy. Not to everyone, but as a generality.

Okay. Point taken. Is it really true as a generality? In my culture, women are often projected as pink and soft and caring and nurturing and curvy to be attractive. Power women are rendered single and goddesslike. not that that historically my culture hasn't tolerated power women, it has.