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is minimum wage exploitation?

alice144

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Is minimum wage labor exploitation? Should employers be obligated to pay a living wage?

For the sake of this discussion, let's define 'minimum wage labor' as $8.50 or below, as many low-paying employers will pay slighly above minimum wage, and yet below a living wage.
 
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Minimum wage is supposed to prevent exploitation.

Some people think that it's ruining business-- it's harder to start something new when you're obligated to pay your workers an amount that you can't afford but your competition (the big corporations that everyone hates so much) can.

I think your question is 'is minimum wage too low'? And the answer to that is probably, again, no. Without a centralized state economy it's impossible to pay everyone the same wage-- and if there is a centralized economy, then it's vulnerable to corruption and oppression and nepotism, etc.

You can't raise it without bankrupting a lot of startups/independents/innovators who need labor, and you can't come down only on the big players because if they're paying people 50k/year to cook hamburgers while the little guy can only afford 25k, then the little guy will be forced to give up before he begins.. or deal with heaps of people quitting all the time. Tthe startups will lose out all the more rapidly, and the world will fall into corporate fascism... and no, we're not there yet, and there IS a struggle to fight it.

The real problem is that there is a shortage of well-paying unionized jobs that are unskilled labor-- manufacturing was always the backbone of blue collar working class society, and it's the reason a lot of people were able to get decent jobs after WWII-- and the reason why the baby boomers were so prosperous.

The cold war actually did a lot to keep the local economy strong-- fewer alternative sources of labor meant that domestic labor was more in demand- but now with globalization and a world that is far more peaceful, it's easier to just move all of the manufacturing to a post-Soviet developing country like China, so you can sidestep minimum wage altogether, keep them in your factories and pay them in basic needs.

The American businessowners blame the unions and the unions blamed the owners... and in some cases it's true, but corporations also need to cut their costs in order to stay competitive. So they could pay American unskilled laborers more money than they're actually worth, or they could buy cheap labor in China and focus their money on development (helping them stay competitive with the innovators from abroad, who don't have to deal with unions)-- which is good for innovation and good for people with the right set of skills, but not so good for the majority of the work force back home... because now they don't have the jobs that they can do and they can't do the jobs that are available.

I don't think that this is a black/white issue at all, even though some people desperately need to believe that it is... it's more like one of the downsides of a world with limited conflicts. If most of the world is polarized, the sides are off-limits to each other, and the rest of the world is unstable/economically unsound, then businesses are easier to control.
 
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Minimum wage is definitely too low. 25% of the workforce is making $17,000 a year or less. At the same time, the economy is performing at three times the strength it was in 1990. $5 trillion GDP to $16 trillion GDP in 22 years... yet wages have decreased by so much for the middle and working classes? The problem isn't in unions - they have lost much of their power thanks to the GOP. The problem is the wealthy! They are paying less taxes now than any time since the Great Depression, with less regulation on all the private sector nonsense that got us to the Great Depression in the first place.

Who's fault is it that they have been deregulated to a hilarious degree? I would cast blame on the Cold War and the post-WWII subservience of the Democratic Party to the GOP line. While we united with ever looser financial policies to beat the Soviets, we had no idea it would lead to this: the most powerful economy on the planet (if the EU isn't counted) ruled by a new class of robber barons!

If the average wage in 1990 was around $50,000 per person, why didn't it triple with the economy? Why has it almost dropped away to nothing? Trickle-down economics don't work, right-wing economics only work for a few decades, criminalizing the lower classes only consolidates wealth...

By all means, the minimum wage should be a lot higher. Non-union states have the lowest earnings per person, and the weakest economies. The unions are the driving force behind minimum wage laws. There are a lot of people in the public sphere of influence who want to do away with both unions and the minimum wage...

And since corporations are people, I say we just vote Foxconn 2016 and get it over with. Bring on the sweatshops.
 
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So they could pay American unskilled laborers more money than they're actually worth

How do you put a sticker tag on a worker's value? And eventually the third world will unionize. Big corporations are just taking advantage of poor, uneducated people in other countries, and it sucks. Eventually service jobs over here will unionize, too, because this Walmart stuff is bulllshit.
 
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min wage where i live is 7.25

u don't live in OK to become rich, thats fer sure lol
 
It is complicated.

In some sense the move of our economy from a manufacturing/production jobs based to more service based jobs has had an impact. The US became a powerhouse after WWII because the rest of the world basically had the snot bombed out of them and they were re-building. We made things. As a country we became complacent with our position and didn't make the necessary adjustments to becoming better and more efficient at making things. Other countries caught up and surpassed us with the ability to produce superior goods. So, rather than spend the Research and Development money to make better goods efficently, big companies started to look for cheaper ways to produce goods instead. Since labor is the biggest component and since poor countries are so desperate and don't have the type of laws/regulations we do, yes, they started to send jobs overseas. (The same thing was done in our country with child labor and whatnot...then we developed labor laws)

What this did is it created a larger divide between the workers in our country--professionals and unskilled laborers with the skilled laborer (typically considered middle class) diminishing.

What the greedy corporations fail to realize is that you have to spend money to make money. By cutting labor, they cut the number of people able to afford to buy their goods and services. If people make a decent wage, they spend and they invest. It strengthens two of the three components of our economy. Remember our economy has three components--G or Government spending, I or Investment (Stock Market) and C or Consumer Spending.

So yes, with our weak and nearly bankrupt economy which always seems to be teetering....people don't make enough money to turn the wheels of our economy.

I make a very decent living and am grateful I don't have to live off of minimum wage. I honestly don't know how people with families do it.
 
It is complicated.

In some sense the move of our economy from a manufacturing/production jobs based to more service based jobs has had an impact. The US became a powerhouse after WWII because the rest of the world basically had the snot bombed out of them and they were re-building. We made things. As a country we became complacent with our position and didn't make the necessary adjustments to becoming better and more efficient at making things. Other countries caught up and surpassed us with the ability to produce superior goods. So, rather than spend the Research and Development money to make better goods efficently, big companies started to look for cheaper ways to produce goods instead. Since labor is the biggest component and since poor countries are so desperate and don't have the type of laws/regulations we do, yes, they started to send jobs overseas. (The same thing was done in our country with child labor and whatnot...then we developed labor laws)

What this did is it created a larger divide between the workers in our country--professionals and unskilled laborers with the skilled laborer (typically considered middle class) diminishing.

What the greedy corporations fail to realize is that you have to spend money to make money. By cutting labor, they cut the number of people able to afford to buy their goods and services. If people make a decent wage, they spend and they invest. It strengthens two of the three components of our economy. Remember our economy has three components--G or Government spending, I or Investment (Stock Market) and C or Consumer Spending.

So yes, with our weak and nearly bankrupt economy which always seems to be teetering....people don't make enough money to turn the wheels of our economy.

I make a very decent living and am grateful I don't have to live off of minimum wage. I honestly don't know how people with families do it.

Bankrupt economy? You mean that one taking in twice what China does? ($7 trillion GDP on China's side, $16 trillion on ours.)

It is a great irony of the 21st century that fast food jobs are more profitable to corporations while being less profitable to employees.
 
Have you been paying any attention to the us economy at all [MENTION=5358]unpersons[/MENTION] The investment function of most countries is in serious crisis.....greece....blah blah blah...people losing their retirement....the failure of the banks.....any of this ringing a bell??

Numbers don't mean crap. The economy is a delicate dance. The whole "recession" thing with people losing their homes to foreclosure? Whole cities filing for bankruptcy? The State of California having to shut down their offices so they can save money???

It is simplistic to believe that only the major corporations "count" in the economy. CONSUMER SPENDING IS A THIRD OF OUR ECONOMY. So, when consumers are overspent and aren't helping to drive our economy, we are teetering on a fine edge of collapse because it affects the other two components--there is less revenue for government spending and the corporations aren't making money so the investment arm in severely anemic.
 
How do you put a sticker tag on a worker's value? And eventually the third world will unionize. Big Corporations are just taking advantage of poor, uneducated people in other countries, and it sucks. Eventually service jobs over here will unionize, too, because this Walmart stuff is bulllshit.

I hope the 3rd world DOES unionize and the money hungry fucks who own corporate industry cant buy that 2nd yacht they've been pining for.
 
third world unions? there a funny idea, wonder if they be just as corrupt as our first world ones were when they became a thing
 
third world unions? there a funny idea, wonder if they be just as corrupt as our first world ones were when they became a thing
We're all a little corrupt. So its ok.
 
I'd be interested to see african mobsters look like, though they tend to have more trouble with warlords these days
 
third world unions? there a funny idea, wonder if they be just as corrupt as our first world ones were when they became a thing

I'm pretty sure that the vilification of the unions is mostly a right wing media propaganda thing...
 
Have you been paying any attention to the us economy at all [MENTION=5358]unpersons[/MENTION] The investment function of most countries is in serious crisis.....greece....blah blah blah...people losing their retirement....the failure of the banks.....any of this ringing a bell??

Numbers don't mean crap. The economy is a delicate dance. The whole "recession" thing with people losing their homes to foreclosure? Whole cities filing for bankruptcy? The State of California having to shut down their offices so they can save money???

It is simplistic to believe that only the major corporations "count" in the economy. CONSUMER SPENDING IS A THIRD OF OUR ECONOMY. So, when consumers are overspent and aren't helping to drive our economy, we are teetering on a fine edge of collapse because it affects the other two components--there is less revenue for government spending and the corporations aren't making money so the investment arm in severely anemic.
The economy is amazing for the super wealthy. Their share of the wealth grew (amongst the top 20%) during the recession... seems to me like if they're profiting on the rest of us getting fucked really far over, they are the biggest problem.
 
How do you put a sticker tag on a worker's value? And eventually the third world will unionize. Big corporations are just taking advantage of poor, uneducated people in other countries, and it sucks. Eventually service jobs over here will unionize, too, because this Walmart stuff is bulllshit.

The market decides the value of a worker through supply and demand. Obviously it would be nice if everyone considered each other to be a beautiful special snowflake that is worth millions and millions of dollars and paid them accordingly, but the truth is that most people are not skilled and are largely redundant in terms of what they can offer an employer.

The third world might unionize one day, but if you've ever been to the third world you would realize that the governments in those countries tend to be extremely oppressive and corrupt... and they also tend to squash uprisings with extreme violence. People in the US cry because they get a faceful of tear gas and a cop puts their hand on their neck-- people in China cry because they're being raped to death and their organs are being ripped out and sold on the black market.

You might argue that liberation is inevitable but on the other hand these are countries that weren't founded on the same principals that western countries like America were... and in a lot of cases they're far too unstable for civil rights to even be an issue.

I actually ran into a woman the other day who told me about a sort of spiritual practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong) which is in no way political but was perceived as a potential threat to the Chinese government because of its influence (and because religions actually threaten loyalty to the government), so now the practice is outlawed and the followers are 'disappearing'. All because they're practicing a kind of yoga. How do you think a worker's rights campaign would be dealt with?? The only time that the Chinese are allowed to protest is when it's something about Japan or foreign influence... and those protests tend to be extremely heated, because they're also venting frustrations that have built up over the other things in their lives that they're helpless to change. Meanwhile in America, people are protesting the fact that they have to pay for university (in Tanzania they actually have to pay for ALL of their education-- good luck buying that iPhone), or the fact that 'the rich' (whoever they may be) have more money than other people, or some other thing that they don't realize that nobody has an answer to, and just assume that they understand when they really don't.

I'm not saying that we don't deserve better, just that we're competing with something that would consider everything that we take for granted to be bliss. China is a HUGE problem because they just don't have the same rules and they don't place the same value on life that we do... they're willing to do whatever it takes to make themselves into the number 1 economic power in the world, and they don't give a damn about civil rights, freedoms, or the lives of individuals. If western businesses refused to play into that, then maybe we'd be onto something... but then they wouldn't be able to compete globally. Western workers would drive the prices of our goods up and someone like Samsung could easily swoop in and completely destroy Apple forever (just one example).

The only way around it is to stop buying Chinese crap and agree to pay more for domestic products (or at least something from Korea or Japan which are relatively free westernized societies)... but it's highly highly unlikely that this will happen. People get excited when they see the price tag... they don't care where it came from.
 
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minimum wage here is $10.25 p/h i think, but the average rent for a one bedroom apt is around 800 or more a month so it's not really reflecting the cost of living.
most jobs that pay minimum are considered entry level jobs and in that case the wage scale is more suitable. students, semi retired housewives, people just looking for a second income etc
 
Is minimum wage labor exploitation? Should employers be obligated to pay a living wage?

For the sake of this discussion, let's define 'minimum wage labor' as $8.50 or below, as many low-paying employers will pay slighly above minimum wage, and yet below a living wage.

Yes it is exploitation, but It depends on how the business owner is living as well. But realistically biz owners are usually doing pretty well.

on the off chance that an owner is living under because of whatever reason, to pay his slave minimum wage is not exploitation. And let's face it, if you aren't the business owner then you are a slave.
 
I think minimum wage can only be classified as exploitation if you are forced to work for those wages against your will.
If you agree to work for those wages, how is it exploitation?