is minimum wage exploitation?

[Gul Dukat]

while i see what you're saying, you're operating under an assumption that those in power/positions of authority are either incapable or will not make a decision that is beneficial for the "lower" workers. I won't venture to guess whether the latter is the case or not, only to say that i'm not so naive as to think it may not happen. However, i would refuse to think that it could be true across the board.

In a legal sense, should there be more checks and balances in regards to people having more of a representation when laws effect them? Absolutely.

Except we're supposed to be living in a democracy, not depending on the rich to decide our quality of life for us.
They're not gods... even though a lot of them think that they are.

There is a definite lack of dignity associated with being on the lower rungs of society, and that's what keeps them believing that both they and everyone else deserves less... it's this same self-hatred that makes poor people vote Republican. They feel like they're losers who deserve to be unhappy because they haven't worked hard... while rich people must be superhumans who deserve more than the rest because of all the hard work they do, and because they're smarter and overall better than the rest of us. It's that inherent superiority that means that they deserve more of a say in how everyone gets to live... and the thing is, the rich believe this just as much as the poor believe it. And they're both fucking idiots for believing it.

The point of being rich isn't the stuff-- that's just a bonus and it doesn't make anyone happy. The security is nice, but you can get that with a lot less money than rich people have. The experiences are great, but those actually have more value to you if you're not doing it all the time.

The point of being rich is to feel like you're better than everyone else, and to have everyone else think that you're better than they are. The wealth is just a symbol of that... you're competing with your neighbors.

It's really fucked up.

 

[Gul Dukat]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...t-over-this-mcdonalds-employee-budget-chart/#

I'm linking this through a right-wing site so you can see just how incredibly stupid the right is when it comes to this kind of thing.

I can't believe that the right seriously believes that asking your employers to pay you a livable wage isn't the answer... and that poor people just need to learn how to live on their shit salaries. Either that, or they just blame it on Obama.

 

[sprinkles]

It would be nice to think that people would be far more altruistic than they are....I don't know, maybe my faith in humanity is lacking...lol.
Okay....here's an example....when I was a Paramedic, I was paid around $16.00 a hour (in CA mind you) to basically hold someone's life in the balance.
To me then and now that seemed unacceptable...I'm not knocking the job of a garbage man because I wouldn't want to do it, but they made more than I did.
To me that was as if society had deemed the life of you or your loved ones somehow less important than a sack of garbage. But what it really boiled down to was those at the top who paid the Ambulance company decided that is was less important than that trashcan. The money they paid out vs money paid in....what lined their pockets vs a basic human service. It's the same with teachers, and a whole slew of jobs across this country.
But who decides? Surely those of us on the front lines would all say that our jobs are worthy of more money....but it also shouldn't be solely in the hands of the company CEOs either. I think we should have industry pay standards...and minimum wages set to that...that would be a more fair practice...let's let the people of the US vote on a 1-10 scale of what industries should be paid what. Take that, and add it to supply and demand and come up with a more fair number.

This reminds me of a real life situation where funding was cut to a fire department, I don't recall off hand what city it was (it was in the US and not even that long ago, maybe a few years) such that at one point there was only ONE fireman and one truck on duty. There was a massive house fire, and the poor one guy got into his truck, by himself, and went there - and found there was nothing he could do. There were people trapped inside and he couldn't get the ladder to them because power lines were in the way. He couldn't attack the fire by himself either. He could only watch, really. A mother threw her baby out the window. There were some medics on scene and they picked up the baby, but she ended up dying in the hospital a few hours later. Trucks from other departments were eventually able to show up, but it had already been too late.

 

[MindYourHead]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...t-over-this-mcdonalds-employee-budget-chart/#

I'm linking this through a right-wing site so you can see just how incredibly stupid the right is when it comes to this kind of thing.

I can't believe that the right seriously believes that asking your employers to pay you a livable wage isn't the answer... and that poor people just need to learn how to live on their shit salaries. Either that, or they just blame it on Obama.

Many of those expenses look like they were taken from life 30 plus years ago. Life today would be pretty good if the cost of living mirrored that list!
$20.00 a month for health insurance? I pay $352.00 a month through my employer sponsored program, and that doesn't include dental.
I would love to have $27.00 a day pocket money!

Honestly, politicians from both the Left and Right are completely out of touch with the realities of the average American.

 

[AzulSoul]

What people always fail to mention is the responsibility of the consumer. Yes, places like McDonald's pay very low wages, but how many people would pay double the price for a Big Mac? These businesses can't magically succeed because their behavior is ethical, the consumer has to actively reward ethical behavior, and this just doesn't happen. How many people ask if the wood used to make their new dining table was sustainable sourced? Almost none, and as long as people continue to act like children (deny personal responsibility for the consequences of their decisions), things like sustainable farming won't be mainstream.

There are countless examples of this. For example, the real estate crash in America is essentially the result of the Government deciding that everybody has the right to a house and forcing banks to lend to people who can't possibly meet their repayments. 1) the involvement of government is overlooked. 2) nobody points out that the person who takes out a mortgage they can't afford is ultimately the one in the wrong and 3) this lack of responsibility also extends to the banks themselves, who are being 'bailed out' for leveraging their bad position in an irresponsible way.

The real problem with minimum wage is that the average person doesn't care. People buy things made in China, where they install nets in factories so that you can't commit suicide, and then have the nerve to complain about the injustice of the Chinese government.

 

[Nixie]

Actually, the housing crash is directly related to deregulation done by Republican presidents and there were actually two. One in the eighties which is usually referred to as the savings and loans collapse and the recent one which has been lumped into what people are calling "the recession".

The people who took out loans were told that they could afford the homes they were buying. They qualified because of the deregulation. The influx on "new buyers" grossly inflated the cost of houses...which meant the price went up to purchase the homes but their actual value was far less. Most of the unsavory lenders (big banks) conned people into "adjustable" rates rather than "fixed" rates because they told people the rates would not go up that much in the near future. But boy did they eventually and on top of that a lot had balloon payments. So consumers by the drove began to default.

In addition to the large loans being made on homes, the deregulation also allowed people to qualify for credit cards. Now, I really do think the consumer shares a lot of the blame on pushing their credit cards to the limits but they were also encouraged by the banks that gave them out...since their limits kept going up and payments were barely above the amount of interest (meaning that the people with the debt were just basically paying interest with very little applied to what they owed).

The idea we were heading for economic trouble was evident well before "the recession" hit and by the time the government started to tighten restrictions again, most consumers were too far in debt to manage. The three components of the economy are government spending, investment and consumer spending. For a decade or more the investment arm has faltered (think Enron) which has left consumer spending to keep the economy chugging along.

So the collapse of the consumer's ability to pay and the defaulting has hit the economy hard...investment took an even bigger hit again (think bailing out the banks) and consumer spending halted (think layoffs because people don't have money to fuel sales). And so on and so on.

Basically, talking about the economy is something you do in terms of decades/years. This is the just the really big picture stuff about what has caused some of the recent problems relating to housing and loans.

A living wage is possible but people have to be willing to endure some changes if the prices of wages go up. Inflation would probably be on the horizon. It would however put the burden of being more competitive on businesses. Those businesses who would jack up their prices to compensate will have to keep an keener eye on competitors who were more likely to adjust earnings in favor of a reduced price.

 

[AzulSoul]

You have the responsibility to think for yourself. You can't say you aren't responsible because 'someone told me it was ok', that's a disgusting display of intellectual laziness. People want rights and freedoms but they forget about the obligations that come with them. As far as I'm concerned, the suffering of the people who took out the loans is their own fault. In a similar way, if you choose to smoke and then get lung cancer, don't expect other people to bail you out.

If this isn't understood then it creates a society where the average person is essentially dumb and unaccustomed to making decisions for themselves because the consequences are largely irrelevant to them.

Furthermore, 'regulation' is generally used as a euphemism for removing certain freedoms. Why should their be regulations on credit cards? It's none of the government's business. The role of the government is to protect your freedom, not to baby people and try to protect them from themselves.

 

[the]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...t-over-this-mcdonalds-employee-budget-chart/#

I'm linking this through a right-wing site so you can see just how incredibly stupid the right is when it comes to this kind of thing.

I can't believe that the right seriously believes that asking your employers to pay you a livable wage isn't the answer... and that poor people just need to learn how to live on their shit salaries. Either that, or they just blame it on Obama.

Heating = $0. lol just put on a blanket!

Anyways when ever I hear people claim that the Big Mac is going to double in price... I'm just like maybe the execs shouldn't make so much off the backs of the restaurant employees. The price doesn't have to go up, the cost of executive labor can come down. Sitting in board rooms at meetings all day and then taking time to make a power point presentation isnt nearly as difficult as running a restaurant. And even if they were equally difficult, then that is even more reason that the pay should be more equal. But of course they'd never do that, that like congress voting to give themself a pay cut. Bottom line is that the restaurant cannot function without the labor aspect. When we all realize this and work together (will that happen, probably not) then everyone can have a Living Wage.

 

[muir]

Heating = $0. lol just put on a blanket!

Anyways when ever I hear people claim that the Big Mac is going to double in price... I'm just like maybe the execs shouldn't make so much off the backs of the restaurant employees. The price doesn't have to go up, the cost of executive labor can come down. Sitting in board rooms at meetings all day and then taking time to make a power point presentation isnt nearly as difficult as running a restaurant. And even if they were equally difficult, then that is even more reason that the pay should be more equal. But of course they'd never do that, that like congress voting to give themself a pay cut. Bottom line is that the restaurant cannot function without the labor aspect. When we all realize this and work together (will that happen, probably not) then everyone can have a Living Wage.

The reason the prices are going up is because the fed has been printing money; this has the result of keeping the interest rates low

This has helped the stockmarket and people with mortgages but it hasn't helped consumers in general and those with savings

In fact the amount that mortgage owners have been savings is overshadowed by the amount that they lose from other spending due to inflation

The fed is now cutting back on money printing so we will see interest rates rise. This will have a negative effect on the stock exchange and on mortgage holders

But hey....guess who gets those homes that people won't be able to pay for anymore....the banks who are behind the fed!

How long until people start to pick up their pitchforks and fill the streets?

 

[muir]

What people always fail to mention is the responsibility of the consumer. Yes, places like McDonald's pay very low wages, but how many people would pay double the price for a Big Mac? These businesses can't magically succeed because their behavior is ethical, the consumer has to actively reward ethical behavior, and this just doesn't happen. How many people ask if the wood used to make their new dining table was sustainable sourced? Almost none, and as long as people continue to act like children (deny personal responsibility for the consequences of their decisions), things like sustainable farming won't be mainstream.

The people have been infantalised by the corporate network who control the government so you can't lay all the blame on the consumer

The people behind the corporations are also the people behind the education system, the government, the banks, the mass media, public relations and they are also the people behind popular culture.

These people shape public perceptions about things.

There are countless examples of this. For example, the real estate crash in America is essentially the result of the Government deciding that everybody has the right to a house and forcing banks to lend to people who can't possibly meet their repayments.

The government did not force the banks to give out loans

The government is controlled by the banks

1) the involvement of government is overlooked.

The government is controlled by the banks

2) nobody points out that the person who takes out a mortgage they can't afford is ultimately the one in the wrong

No you are wrong

The whole point about banking was that the banker would assess the suitability of someone for a loan. The bank would then suffer if they gave a loan to someone who could not repay as they would then not recieve the money back

But the bankers changed the rules of the game

They infiltrated government and brought about deregulation which has allowed the bankers to sell people mortgages which they will not be able to pay off when interest rates rise (as the bankers knew they would becuase they control the interest rates)

The bankers knew they couldn't repay the loans but the bankers then took those mortgages that were going to fail at the nextinterest rate rise and they packaged them into derivatives which were allowed due to the deregulation

Then the rating agencies which are also owned by the same people behind the banks then rated those packages as safe when they weren't. These packages were then sold around the world and inevitably they blew up in everyones faces

This whole process has been a fraud perpetrated by the bankers and the politicans they have created and financed to serve their interests

and 3) this lack of responsibility also extends to the banks themselves, who are being 'bailed out' for leveraging their bad position in an irresponsible way.

This is all part of the plan of the banks....they gain even when they fail

The real problem with minimum wage is that the average person doesn't care. People buy things made in China, where they install nets in factories so that you can't commit suicide, and then have the nerve to complain about the injustice of the Chinese government.

Peoples opinions are largely formed by the corporate media which is owned by the same people behind the banks

They point to the problems in china to distract people in the west from their own crimes

 

[muir]

You have the responsibility to think for yourself. You can't say you aren't responsible because 'someone told me it was ok', that's a disgusting display of intellectual laziness. People want rights and freedoms but they forget about the obligations that come with them. As far as I'm concerned, the suffering of the people who took out the loans is their own fault. In a similar way, if you choose to smoke and then get lung cancer, don't expect other people to bail you out.

You're forgetting that there was a cover up by the corporations to hide from the public that smoking was in fact bad for their health

If this isn't understood then it creates a society where the average person is essentially dumb and unaccustomed to making decisions for themselves because the consequences are largely irrelevant to them.

This 'dumbness' has been manufactured by the corporations. its only thanks to the internet that poeple are now accessing good info in large numbers. the corportaions had a strangle hold over the flows of information before that

Furthermore, 'regulation' is generally used as a euphemism for removing certain freedoms. Why should their be regulations on credit cards? It's none of the government's business. The role of the government is to protect your freedom, not to baby people and try to protect them from themselves.

What people need protection from is the corporations who will exploit people any way they can

 

[the]

The reason the prices are going up is because the fed has been printing money; this has the result of keeping the interest rates low

This has helped the stockmarket and people with mortgages but it hasn't helped consumers in general and those with savings

In fact the amount that mortgage owners have been savings is overshadowed by the amount that they lose from other spending due to inflation

The fed is now cutting back on money printing so we will see interest rates rise. This will have a negative effect on the stock exchange and on mortgage holders

But hey....guess who gets those homes that people won't be able to pay for anymore....the banks who are behind the fed!

How long until people start to pick up their pitchforks and fill the streets?

I feel like you didnt read my post and just quoted it to give yourself an excuse to say that.

 

[muir]

I feel like you didnt read my post and just quoted it to give yourself an excuse to say that.

You were talking about inflation and saying how we don't need inflation we can just pay execs less and workers more so i pointed out that actually there is a coherent reason behind the inflation and that it is all being driven by a certain group of people

Although i agree with you that execs should get less and workers shoudl get more i think it is not the really big issue here

People are all still getting to grips with what has happened but soon the debate will need to move on

Once its understood what was done and by who we can then get to the interesting part: why

The people behind all this are pursuing their own ideology. this is an ideology that would see a drastically different society

They are currently moulding their new society....we are the putty and all this economic chicanery is their hands as they shape us into something new

We are being manipulated on a societal scale into something new....this is what it feels like to live through an ideological shift

 

[Nixie]

I inherently dislike conspiracy theory but [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] has several rational points to his arguments, mainly an understanding of how the economy works (not commenting on why or how it was engineered)

Additionally, historically it has always been about information flow and the restriction of information flow. Most people don't bother to learn how something works about lots of things we use everyday. Until, one day, something goes wrong and then the finger pointing comes along. I think most people assumed the banks weren't lying when they said they could afford the loans they were given. In fact, a major lawsuit was won against one (maybe more) of the major banks for pushing "worse" loans on black people (racially based) who qualified for better loan terms but were guided into taking loans with worse rates. So there is a lot of "yea you should of" but in general, society has never really been keen about making sure "everybody" is in the know---the word sheeple exists for a reason.

 

[Nixie]

In theory, competition should limit the amount of inflation one would see if labor prices increased. It would depend on whether there was collusion going on or not between major companies (like McDonalds and BK agreeing on "setting a price" for their burgers for example). In theory, the competition would force these companies to look at whether raising the cost or absorbing most of the cost (reducing managerial wages, cutting food cost via cheaper goods/smaller portions, or reducing shareholder profit) would be the better way to handle the increase in labor cost. Ideally these kind of decisions would inhibit inflation.

In truth, wages and cost tend to rise hand in hand. I think overall there needs to be fundamental changes in utility and energy costs for a true change in how much it costs to live. The cost of almost all of a household's disposable goods can be reduced with efficiency of delivery (lower shipping costs which would bring down prices or re-building local networks). Ideally if consumers would learn to spend locally, they increase the chances of building their local networks which spurs competition.

 

[muir]

If you think about certain mechanisms as levers through which the economy can be controlled then some of these levers would be the interest rates, the value of money (control of the money supply), taxation, credit

The IRS was created the same year that the federal reserve bank was created.....that means whole new levers were created at the same time

If you can control these levers you can control how much money each citizen takes home after tax, how much credit they can have, the value of commodities, the interest rates of those loans, the availability of those loans and so on

And some poeple wonder why they are always on the breadline....the system is designed that way

All you then need to do is ask ''ok so who is behind these institutions?''

The fed is controlled by big banks. These big banks are in turn controlled by families

These families are in turn intermarried (you can even find these links on wikipedia if you're a geek like me....i enjoy joining the dots....and when you begin that process it soon becomes clear how integrated this cartel/cabal of bankers are)

It gets even more interesting because the families also own the big oil companies so then you can even implicate them in all the conflicts happening abroad over resources eg in the middle east

Also these familes have other business interests which can all be traced. they own the corporate media, the big pharmaceutical companies, weapons manufacturers and also tax exempt 'foundations' which pay out money to certain things for example in education to shape the education system the way they want

Before you know it you're looking at a 'conspiracy'...voila...as the french might say

A conspiracy that is clearly reaching its tentacles into every influential area of american life

They even reach into foreign policy through think tanks like the council on foreign relations

If this was a game of monopoly we would now be at an advanced stage where one player has pretty much wiped out everyone else....they own the streets, the hotels, the utilities, the stations and everyone else is tiptoeing around them waiting for them to take the shirt off their back

 

[AzulSoul]

You're forgetting that there was a cover up by the corporations to hide from the public that smoking was in fact bad for their health



This 'dumbness' has been manufactured by the corporations. its only thanks to the internet that poeple are now accessing good info in large numbers. the corportaions had a strangle hold over the flows of information before that.

What people need protection from is the corporations who will exploit people any way they can

People can read scientific studies. Let me ask you, have you ever seen a queue to get into a library? No, people are lazy, they don't want to learn. You have this weird view of corporations as evil Machiavellian entities that are out to harm people, when actually capitalism works on the foundation of win-win. So, for example, coca cola gives you cancer. Is the cola company evil? No, because people are free to choose not to put harmful things into their body. People have decided that they value stimulation over health. Your car, house, TV etc were all made by corporations, be grateful that corporations exist.

Also, all this stuff about hating the rich is dumb. 1) most millionaires are self-made (they contributed a hell of a lot more than you or me have to society) 2) on a global scale, any normal American IS the '1 percent'.

 

[TinyBubbles]

Is minimum wage labor exploitation?

yes

 

[AzulSoul]

Are people better off with a minimum wage job or no job at all?

 

[magister343]

High corporate profits do not mean that those who are responsible for paying regular store employees have the funds needed to fund pay raises.

Local franchises do not have such high profit margins. In fact, corporate profits come directly from the fact that the franchisees are required to hand over so much of their profits to their corporate overlords.

Franchisees must pay royalties for the use of the McDonald's brand. There is a service fee of 4% of all monthly sales. They must also pay rent, as in most cases the corporation is the actual owner of the land and buildings that the franchisees use.

Some McDonald's executives have gone so far as to say that the public may mistakenly believe that they are a food company, but they are actually a real estate company. They profit tremendously by land speculation, and by charging rent in areas where population density makes land rent quite high.

The fact is that where workers most need pay raises, it is because the rent is too high. However, the rent is also too high for their immediate bosses. The same factor that makes then need higher wages in some areas makes the franchises in those areas less able to afford to pay higher wages.

Minimum wag laws do not actually seem to increase unemployment as much as right wingers usually assume. However, they have been shown to drive up the price of rent even further, hurting both those with and without jobs.


It would be far better if we got rid of minimum wage laws completely, and instead levied a high land value tax which would capture the value of land rents from the corporation and redistribute the funds in the form of an unconditional basic income guarantee of citizen's dividend. Even if the funds were not redistributed so as to help the poor but instead were used to reduce other taxes, land value taxes rend to drive down rent relative to wages. Unconditional payments are more effective than means tested welfare though, as they allow workers to take the risk of staring at low paying jobs and also gives them enough security to let them negotiate better wages.