Indy: an INFJ or INTJ (case study)

[IndigoSensor]

Don't vote until you have read this whole thing please. It will be invalid if you don't.

I was planning on posting a ton of cognitive function results in here to back everything up... For some reason though, both of the tests are broken right now. So unfortunately I cant use them. I will just have to talk it out.

It's been ruled out that I am an S type. While I do use Si to a high level, it is not my top function like I thought it might be. Added to that, that not a single solitary person on this forum, or in real life, thought that I was anything but a person ruled by Ni.

The split between INFJ and INTJ though, has sort of remained. The majority of people feel that I am an INFJ, but some do think I am INTJ. I am starting to wonder if this is the case. In the end my Fe and Te are close. Over all of the times (with a few minor exceptions), my Te and Fe have been within a single point of each other. I have stated in the past that Fe wins out, but I wonder if it really does.

Some of the key points of Fe is feeling unity and oneness within a group, and being able to pull people together, I can do this, but its different. When I lead a group, I feel very cold inside. I feel like I am actually relating to no one, and that when I speak I am reeling off pre-recorded sound bites to people in order to sound happy, plesent, and warm. The goal is to fit the social norm; I don't want to be cold or mean. I feel like it is possible that I am using Te, but making it appear as Fe to others so I can relate to them better, and that they will like me more. At the core that could be Fi right there, cause in the end it is for a personal reason (and I am non too pleased to think that about myself either), that I just want people to like me.

I also take care of people all the time. It's impulsive. I present it in the warmest way I can, but I still feel cold. As an example, I flip when someone is sick. I start grilling them asking them what their symptoms are, and then I try to explain to them what could be wrong. I go take their tempature, then try to confort them by explaining things to them. I am trying to care for them, but I just feel robotic. It is also, that I feel like I am doing it more out of obligation. In a sense I make it my duty to take care of people, because it is the right thing to do. I will do it anyway even if I am hurt myself (albeit if I am too hurt I won't). I will try to hug them if they start to cry or something (sick or not), but it feels so rigid, hollow, unreal. I feel like I am doing it, just because I should do it. It is the way to show care to someone, even though it feels unconfortable.

I can see back to when I was a child as well. I always had to be the leader, I had to be in charge, in some posistion of authority, and I was not happy until I was. At any game I played, I HAD to win. I had to win at everything. I cried if I didn't. I wanted to be the best at all times. I wanted the recognition. Now adays I say I hate competition, and I don't care if I win or loose. This is largely true. However... The core reason to why I won't enter some kind of contest, is because I can tell right away that I will not win, and it makes me not want to do it. Let me tell you, I really really did not want to admit that either. It is a huge flaw of mine...

It is for these reasons I feel I might be using Te afterall, but I just make it out to be Fe. What supports it is underneath it, it could be Fi that backs stuff up. When I use Fe, I often back it with Te, not so much Ti. Too much Ti makes me gag.

So I ask, after reading this, and from what you have observed, do you feel I am an INFJ or INTJ. Please explain why you think this. A simple one sentance answer won't really explain much, lol.

 

[Ecton]

Indigo,

Assume you are at a dinner party where you are all making food. You are assigned to a group of people to bake bread. Now, you just met the people in this group. They are all "friends of friends". In the kitchen, your group reads that you should knead the bread for at least a half an hour. As an experienced chemist and baker, you know this step is critically important for the bread to rise properly. But a dominant extrovert in your group convinces the rest of the group to skip this step and put the batter in the oven for an hour so that they can drink some more wine and talk.

What do you do?

 

[IndigoSensor]

Indigo,

Assume you are at a dinner party where you are all making food. You are assigned to a group of people to bake bread. Now, you just met the people in this group. They are all "friends of friends". In the kitchen, your group reads that you should knead the bread for at least a half an hour. As an experienced chemist and baker, you know this step is critically important for the bread to rise properly. But a dominant extrovert in your group convinces the rest of the group to skip this step and put the batter in the oven for an hour so that they can drink some more wine and talk.

What do you do?

Keep in mind the accuracy of this isn't going to be 100% because I am not totally confidant what I would do in this situation, my mood would likely effect it. If I were in a happy, or neutral-calm mood, the likelyhood of me doing this would go up.

I would point out that it will bake incorrectly if that's done, (and I would wonder why on earth everyone was agreeing with this person, its common knowledge). I would then try to convince this person to do it the way it is supposed to be done. If the person is truly stubborn, and won't do it right, then I would take it upon myself to kneed the dough without help or not. Although I would still likely talk to the group while they chit-chat (assuming I am in a good mood after discussing with the extrovert about this matter).

 

[Raccoon Love]

INFJ

Indigo, I would have to admit, you do have a strong T side from what you have demonstrated here in the forum. I have often found myself wondering about your type as your results do not fit the current INFJ trend. I do feel however, that you are indeed an INFJ.

I feel like I am actually relating to no one, and that when I speak I am reeling off pre-recorded sound bites to people in order to sound happy, plesent, and warm.

This is not uncommon for INFJ's. We tend to put on masks in order to accommodate to a specific situation. The fact that you go out of your way to be warm and affectionate despite your truth feelings is very Fe.

The goal is to fit the social norm; I don't want to be cold or mean.

Fe usually takes the role of fighting into society and its expectations. We accommodate ourselves in that matter to make others happy.

I feel like it is possible that I am using Te, but making it appear as Fe to others so I can relate to them better, and that they will like me more.

I do not believe Te is concern about the likings of others as much as Fe. Te wants to organize and direct logically and objectively. The fact that you want people to accept you shows very strong signs of Fe.

I also take care of people all the time. It's impulsive. I present it in the warmest way I can, but I still feel cold. As an example, I flip when someone is sick. I start grilling them asking them what their symptoms are, and then I try to explain to them what could be wrong. I go take their tempature, then try to confort them by explaining things to them. I am trying to care for them, but I just feel robotic. It is also, that I feel like I am doing it more out of obligation. In a sense I make it my duty to take care of people, because it is the right thing to do. I will do it anyway even if I am hurt myself (albeit if I am too hurt I won't). I will try to hug them if they start to cry or something (sick or not), but it feels so rigid, hollow, unreal. I feel like I am doing it, just because I should do it. It is the way to show care to someone, even though it feels unconfortable.

The fact that you feel the need and obligation to take care of others is very Fe. Remember we are not extroverts, nor do we lead with the Fe process. We might sometimes even question the nature of our compassion. That can arise from Ni. INFJs are always questioning themselves and whether their actions are real or not. You are so concerned with aiding others that perhaps you are creating ideas in your head that you are not doing this well enough and questioning your real intentions. This can be a Ni vs Fe conflict in my opinion.

This is largely true. However... The core reason to why I won't enter some kind of contest, is because I can tell right away that I will not win, and it makes me not want to do it. Let me tell you, I really really did not want to admit that either. It is a huge flaw of mine...

INTJs tend to be more assertive in that sense that they believe more in their natural abilities, after all they are able to support their intuition more practically rather than philosophical and emotionally like we do. The fact that you feel this way points out towards INFJ.

When I use Fe, I often back it with Te, not so much Ti. Too much Ti makes me gag.

You are barely out of your teens, Ti is not our primary or secondary process. It might annoy you at first but give it time and perhaps you will develop it further.

 

[VH]

Honestly, Indigo, after reading all of that, you remind me even more of my INTJ friends.

I'm not going to vote until I've had more time to mill this over, but right now I'm leaning toward you being Strong Ni with Solid Te and Fi use.

As for the INTJ Se effect, I've noticed that for some reason, INTJs seem less inclined to Se than INFJs. Keep in mind that inferior Se often manifests as awareness of the world around us, but it brings with it a sense of engaging the world around us.

I think it might be because INFJs are more likely to feel like they 'should' (Fe) engage in these behaviors/activies for whatever reason, usually societal or more likely loved ones' expectations or the desire to protect the ones they love (secondary Fe as the 'parental' function) - resulting in an interest in martial arts or activities that have a side effect that makes them able to better protect others. Staying in at least moderately good shape, staying vigilant to possible threats, etc. all stem from Fe's parental nature in INFJs combining with inferior Se, which supports it as the other extroverted function.

INTJs tend to look at Se behaviors/activities as 'impractical' (Te) or just not want to do something unpleasant (Fi). For INTJs, Te is the parental function, which manifests more in a desire to know what to do to protect people, to think their way through dangers. When INTJs combine their Te and Se, it often takes the form of being hyper alert to conditions that relate to problems and solutions, kinda like how you start telling people what is wrong and what they need to do about it (Te) once you've diagnosed them imperically by taking temperatures, etc. (Se). For INTJs, Se manifest as competitiveness, even moreso because of Fi, when it does come out. However, it's function is to support Te, which means INTJs use it to support intellectual process and concerns.

I'm still on the fence about this one, but I still stand by this one... you're an Ni dominant posterboy.

 

[enfp can be shy]

I wondered for some time if you are not INFP; you are a bit unusual INFJ case. But this quote is very INFJ:

I can see back to when I was a child as well. I always had to be the leader, I had to be in charge, in some posistion of authority, and I was not happy until I was. At any game I played, I HAD to win. I had to win at everything. I cried if I didn't. I wanted to be the best at all times. I wanted the recognition. Now adays I say I hate competition, and I don't care if I win or loose. This is largely true. However... The core reason to why I won't enter some kind of contest, is because I can tell right away that I will not win, and it makes me not want to do it. Let me tell you, I really really did not want to admit that either. It is a huge flaw of mine...

I had an INFJ mentor once, who had won great things in his youth. Really great. And he claimed he hated competitions etc. He was being honest, but I figured out he had some similar transition. So it seems INFJs with time become less competitive; they learn something on the way of winning, that maybe others don't learn.

About the cold side that you describe - yes, INFJs ARE a bit cold and reserved with people, even though they DO so much goodness to people; maybe more than any other type. But they have coldness, even towards their closest loved ones. They are very guarded creatures, in a way. It's the Ti, after all the flip-side of Fe and very much part of the INFJ character.

I feel sometimes like INFJs are secretly very calculating, through this Ti, meaning, their inner, personal needs are very strictly, "coldly" defined - even though they pursue them through outside warmth and carefulness of Fe. That's exactly the opposite case of Fi-Te dynamics: usually arrogant, selfish, hysterical, tactless, offensive through the Te, but in fact very insecure and unsure from within, with unclear and vague needs, which cannot be crystallized with precision, so this vulnerable Fi relies on the external precision of Te.

I think your descriptions actually fit the Ti-Fe model perfectly. So now I'm sure you aren't INFP as I thought for some time.

 

[arbygil]

Indy, I'm not sure if I'm one who should help because I also have a strong T side, but with the description you've given you very well could be a "T" with a soft side. I know sometimes you act on things without caring about a group consensus (not judging, just saying what can happen), because you want things DONE and to hell with the consequences or feelings of folks. That could be either "T" or a fed-up "F" who is relying on Ti.

But you're also a passionate man with a full, rich life, who loves as deeply as he thinks. Expression of love is more important than the feeling, but maybe you should see if you do things grudgingly because you're tired, or because you just don't want to and it irritates you to care about things that are, in your mind (possibly) to be of little importance.

I dunno - I think we need a strong "T" to weigh in here, to see the difference.

 

[VH]

I wondered for some time if you are not INFP; you are a bit unusual INFJ case. But this quote is very INFJ:

I had an INFJ mentor once, who had won great things in his youth. Really great. And he claimed he hated competitions etc. He was being honest, but I figured out he had some similar transition. So it seems INFJs with time become less competitive; they learn something on the way of winning, that maybe others don't learn.

About the cold side that you describe - yes, INFJs ARE a bit cold and reserved with people, even though they DO so much goodness to people; maybe more than any other type. But they have coldness, even towards their closest loved ones. They are very guarded creatures, in a way. It's the Ti, after all the flip-side of Fe and very much part of the INFJ character.

I feel sometimes like INFJs are secretly very calculating, through this Ti, meaning, their inner, personal needs are very strictly, "coldly" defined - even though they pursue them through outside warmth and carefulness of Fe. That's exactly the opposite case of Fi-Te dynamics: usually arrogant, selfish, hysterical, tactless, offensive through the Te, but in fact very insecure and unsure from within, with unclear and vague needs, which cannot be crystallized with precision, so this vulnerable Fi relies on the external precision of Te.

I think your descriptions actually fit the Ti-Fe model perfectly. So now I'm sure you aren't INFP as I thought for some time.

Thank you for explaining exactly how the ENFP I have been dating consistently misreads me and how she keeps making tangental assumptions about what I am thinking and where my motivations lie. It didn't make any sense until you explained how we seem to you guys and why. Trust me when I say this. You have it very backward. INFJs are very warm on the inside. We only appear to be cold on the outside. We care so deeply that it inhibits us. We are terribly straightforward and benevolent, so much so that we have trouble rationalizing how others are not also this way. Fe and Ti dynamics are such that Fe feels what is right and what should be and Ti helps it understand how to make this happen in as direct a manner as possible. Fe has no room for unethical or immoral intentions. Ti has no time to waste on machinations. The coldness you're picking up on is likely the Ni effect, which makes us appear disconnected from reality in proportion to how much we are engaging it. The sense that we are plotting is likely coming from those moments when our Ni is gathering the strings of possibilities seeking to track them down to the single truth they stem from. We're not 'thinking' in a standard sense so much as our minds are deeply in the middle of a churning process that is slowly and subconsciously squeezing the answers we seek to the surface.

If you know an INFJ, you know someone who is as sincere as a person you will ever meet.

 

[Blase]

Some of the key points of Fe is feeling unity and oneness within a group, and being able to pull people together, I can do this, but its different. When I lead a group, I feel very cold inside. I feel like I am actually relating to no one, and that when I speak I am reeling off pre-recorded sound bites to people in order to sound happy, plesent, and warm. The goal is to fit the social norm; I don't want to be cold or mean. I feel like it is possible that I am using Te, but making it appear as Fe to others so I can relate to them better, and that they will like me more. At the core that could be Fi right there, cause in the end it is for a personal reason (and I am non too pleased to think that about myself either), that I just want people to like me.

I think the "coldness" has more to do with being Ni dominant than T/F. Since the core part of who you are is so abstract and difficult to share with people, social interaction can often feel superficial and contrived. With a person you truly connect with, I wouldn't expect an INFJ to feel this coldness, but no matter how kind I am with people, there's very few people I truly relate to.

Just because you may have a personal reason, doesn't mean that's Fi and not Fe. Fe isn't necessarily noble and loving in and of itself, it can be seen as having a self-interest. I think since Fe is a sensitivity to people's feelings, you want people to think of you positively. If it was Fi, you probably wouldn't care as much whether or not people like you.

I also take care of people all the time. It's impulsive. I present it in the warmest way I can, but I still feel cold. As an example, I flip when someone is sick. I start grilling them asking them what their symptoms are, and then I try to explain to them what could be wrong. I go take their tempature, then try to confort them by explaining things to them. I am trying to care for them, but I just feel robotic. It is also, that I feel like I am doing it more out of obligation. In a sense I make it my duty to take care of people, because it is the right thing to do. I will do it anyway even if I am hurt myself (albeit if I am too hurt I won't). I will try to hug them if they start to cry or something (sick or not), but it feels so rigid, hollow, unreal. I feel like I am doing it, just because I should do it. It is the way to show care to someone, even though it feels unconfortable.

The "asking what the symptoms are" and "comforting them by explaining things to them" strike me as Te, but once again I think this "coldness" comes from Ni dominance causing a difficulty relating to most people. It seems like your intention is to forge a bond with someone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll feel any warmth from it. Fe addresses peoples feelings, but I don't think it can feel warm and bubbly about it without receiving that warmth as feedback from the other person.

I can see back to when I was a child as well. I always had to be the leader, I had to be in charge, in some posistion of authority, and I was not happy until I was. At any game I played, I HAD to win. I had to win at everything. I cried if I didn't. I wanted to be the best at all times. I wanted the recognition. Now adays I say I hate competition, and I don't care if I win or loose. This is largely true. However... The core reason to why I won't enter some kind of contest, is because I can tell right away that I will not win, and it makes me not want to do it. Let me tell you, I really really did not want to admit that either. It is a huge flaw of mine...

Don't beat yourself up about this, there's not really anything wrong with it. Just the fact that you consider it a flaw may indicate Fe over Te. In fact, wanting to win in order to gain recognition could be Fe, since it shows that you care about what others think and you want them to think positively of you.

From what I know of you thus far, I could see how you may be an INTJ, but nothing that you mentioned indicates to me that your Fe is lower than your Te. I think the coldness or discomfort you experience in using Fe has more to with having such strong Ni that its difficult to relate to most people, and that you may not be receiving enough approval or positive feedback to experience that warm fuzzy feeling. I hope that helps.

 

[Ecton]

Do you ever have friends telling you that they wish you had 'clued in' to an emotional truth earlier, and backed off an external plan? Do you stick with a plan until it is 'painfully obvious' that it contradicts your friends' needs?

 

[VH]

The most probable answer is that you are both, seeing as development of both Fe and Te are not necessarily exclusive. Perhaps you've developed the ability to switch back and forth to maximize your adaptability?

Of course, this doesn't fit neatly into a box, and I know your very strong J won't have any of that but...

The fact that you have such a strong J is likely proof that you rely on Fe and Te more than Ti or Fi. I've seen your cognitive function scores over the past few years, and you have a really odd model most of the time. You score Ni > Fe > Te > Si. Perhaps you're something outside the scope of the standard model? If this is the case, then your best fit type is still INFJ due to the Ni > Fe dominant and secondary.

Do you ever have friends telling you that they wish you had 'clued in' to an emotional truth earlier, and backed off an external plan? Do you stick with a plan until it is 'painfully obvious' that it contradicts your friends' needs?

Nice split on Fe vs Te.

 

[Ecton]

Thanks, Nobleheart. My wife is an INTJ and she does that sometimes, despite the fact that she has a wonderfully well developed Fe.

Yes, I envy your Te, Indigo. Perhaps you will just have to deal with having two capable and confident decision functions. I struggled for years in graduate school to develop an advanced Te, but I just could never grow to enjoy it. On a potentially related note, do you suffer from social anxiety issues? Have you found yourself developing a function as you have learned to deal with it?

Edit: ENFP_can_be_shy, Its all emotion on the inside too. At least it is for me. Sometimes I don't translate it well to the outside unless I am paying attention. Fi and Ti problems do exist, but for me they come up as neuroses as follows:
1) Fi failure occurs when either Ti or Fe overwhelms us and we feel anxiety or tension, but not our own feelings. We still 'feel' a lot, but it is devoid of self-identity.
2) Ti overload occurs when we are so desperate to make an emotional idea fit into our model of things that we develop OCD tendencies.
For me, these failings tend to have a neurotic, rather than cold, bent.

I differ from Indigo, in that at some point in High School, I realized that 'winning' and 'recognition' were not the same thing, and I just didn't enjoy winning, but I did enjoy recognition. I was really interested in 'cooperative competition', but that doesn't really exist in our world today, so I gave up on competition until I can find a way to manifest it. Think of it like honor for a new age.

 

[Norton]

Both my wife (M.D.) and brother-in-law (Ph.D.) are INFJ's and scientists. In professional situations you would swear that they are INTJ's but, on a personal level, it is clear that they are INFJ's. I think that mature and balanced INFJ's (particularly those in the sciences) can have a strong "T" ability and this confounds typing them.

 

[VH]

Yes, I envy your Te, Indigo. Perhaps you will just have to deal with having two capable and confident decision functions. I struggled for ears in graduate school to develop an advanced Te, but I just could never grow to enjoy it.

I'm a little older than you, but am only really coming into my own with Te - through the help of a pair of very patient INTJ friends. I never used to like it much at all, but am finally seeing the use for it and am developing an appreciation for it. I think this is a common thing to develop around this stage in our lives - some facility with Te.

Edit: ENFP_can_be_shy, Its all emotion on the inside too. At least it is for me. Sometimes I don't translate it well to the outside unless I am paying attention.
Fi and Ti problems do exist, but for me they come up as neuroses as follows:
1) Fi failure occurs when either Ti or Fe overwhelms us and we feel anxiety or tension, but not our own feelings. We still 'feel' a lot, but it is devoid of self-identity.

I hate that feeling, and I never once parsed it as Fi failure, but I think you are dead on correct. It's that nagging external feeling that is tied to intuition, pressing in from outside ourselves, leaving us to have to try to intuit the source of it. Happens to me so often that I've had to develop some coping mechanisms, like constantly telling myself that those are not my feelings and the answer will present itself... in mantra fashion every time I feel a pang of them.

2) Ti overload occurs when we are so desperate to make an emotional idea fit into our model of things that we develop OCD tendencies.
For me, these failings tend to have a neurotic, rather than cold, bent.

Perfect description here. It feels very driven, unyielding, and neurotic, yet when I've gotten like this, I've often been accused of being a 'robot'. I never understood why until just now.

Both result in a lot of 'emotionality' expressed by me and it aint cold. People who know me describe me as the opposite of cold. But then again, they get confused with how uncold I can be and still be so driven.
The drive is the Ni and Ti, but it reserves its whip for me.

Yup. It is anything but cold. It feels like red hot steely focus to me on the inside, but gets described as cold to people who don't know me. Never understood how that can be confused, as people tell me I have a very strong presence.

I like all of this that you posted. Lots to think about. Thank you.

 

[enfp can be shy]

I rather meant strictly defined, internally, not insincere. I'm also aware there's a lot of passion going on, related to it.

Since Fi/Te is exactly the opposite, this internal precision comes a bit shocking to us. Fi/Te is much better with external precision.

 

[VH]

I rather meant strictly defined, internally, not insincere. I'm also aware there's a lot of passion going on, related to it.

Since Fi/Te is exactly the opposite, this internal precision comes a bit shocking to us. Fi/Te is much better with external precision.

Ah, that makes sense. We must seem very alien to you guys, heh.

 

[NaeturVindur]

Indy, I've read your blog since its inception, and we've talked a good bit off this forum, and let me assure you, you are an INFJ. You do use Fe with a lot of support from Te, but Fe is still driving the goals and means of your thoughts and actions.

 

[Morgain]

my God indy, you sound so much like me.

I'm also very aware of what the group wants from me, trying to sound happy, plesent and warm while I don't feel warmth inside. I have a hard time really loving someone the way they are. I always find something that is wrong about them. That is when I'm in an unbalanced mode. When I feel the most insecure on the inside. Then I only want recognition from others and I seek it by acting the way they want me to be. I also take care off people because I feel obligated. Again it is when I'm feeling insecure inside (which is 90% of the time). When I do am balanced, the love flows freely and I do things for others because I want to make them happy

I was also a very competitive child, always wanted to win, always needed to get what my brother got. And since some years I stoped being competitive, I just don't enter it anymore because I know when I do it again with hard and soul, I morve into this maniac who would do everything to win.

I know this was all about me but I hope it can help you a bit in clearing things out. I don't know about the MBTI indy. I always think that I have a clear view on what they mean but I'm always second guessing myself.
I think we definetely share the Te in our science. When I use Te I use it to plan and organize, to built up my experiments and to analyse the outcome. When I'm in that mode I become very rigid and need and want other people to be reliable and to keep there promises. I think you have that too in some occasions, especially when there are problems on the forums. Then you become very strict with people, more relying on the rules than on the group energy or peoples needs. This is not a judgement, just an observation and I know I could very much do the same thing in your position . But most of the times you are not that rigid, you are warm and soft and carying. Your replies to some posts are not what you would expect from an INTJ, like "you have captured her essence perfectly". I don't know, can that come from the mouth of an INTJ? And I don't think you only said that because you felt obligated to say it, then I think you would rather say something like "very beautiful". In fact, your reactions on that tread fits perfectly with the reactions I get from other F types on the forums while I see a distinct difference in reactions from all the T types on the forums. But then there is still the question between Fe and Fi and I don't even know myself what I use

man what a rand ... I'm sorry! I don't believe this will help you to pin down your type, and you need to pin it down right? I gave up the effort :w:

to conclude. You are a very sweet, loving, carying and warm guy who can come of a bit rigid and cold sometimes. It is in the expression on your face, but it is not who you are, your eyes tell a different story!

 

[Ecton]

Lots of good insight here from people who know you, Indy. I'd trust them.

It took me a long time with my wife to know that she was an INTJ. She is very social and caring. Her Fe is the best in her family. So it is possible that you are the other way around, an INFJ that people might believe to be an INTJ until they get to know you better.

And I agree with Norton. Lots of INFJs make _great_ scientists.

 

[VH]

If you still have any doubts, I've found these to be extremely helpful benchmarks. Take what you know about each function and see if it fits the description of the priority rank.

http://www.vtwellness.net/assets/self-exam_INFJ.pdf

http://www.vtwellness.net/assets/self-exam_INTJ.pdf