How does one deal with a country supported by drug $$?

[Satya]

I cannot help but wonder how Sharia Law, sponsored with drug $$, exporting narcoterrorism, would turn around and treat drug abusers of their own people? How about of people they might overthrow?

just me, that is utter and complete bull. Sharia courts punish drug offenders.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...Group-Lashkar-e-Islam/Article/200903415248317

The man making the decision is Misri Gul, the deputy to Mangal Bagh - the commander of Laskar e Islam, who is also the head of the Sharia court.
The key decisions are all made by him or passed down through his deputy.
The drug farmers are told to close down their businesses within five days. They all leave strangely happy.
If they do not, they know they will face punishment - flogging, hefty fines... or worse.
Misri Gul said: "Before we set up Sharia court, it was heaven for the criminals. "The government was protecting these criminals and their crimes. We have succeeded and cut crime by about 8%."

I know the answer as do most here.

Clearly you don't.

Would the legalization of drug use in our country, which I am against might I add, even affect a third world country that I asked about in the OP?

Yes. America is the world's largest consumer of illicit drugs. It would be devastating to the illicit drug market if drugs were legalized here.

Would it stop the illegal activities?

Yes. The money to finance them would dry up since the price of the illicit drugs would crash.

Would it do away with the black market?

Yes.

I would call legalization of drugs "high hopes" from some.

I would call it common sense. Anyone with the slightest hint of economic comprehension could figure it out. Where the "high hopes" are, are with the people who believe any good can come from criminalizing these substances when the evidence right in front of our eyes indicates otherwise.

 

[arbygil]

Actually they found out that the alcohol rate had signficantly increased by the later parts of Prohibition. So by legalizing it, there was a reduction in the consumption of alcohol. No real trade off there. Also while violent and sexual crime rates have been going down over the last few decades, since Nixon began the War on Drugs, the drug crime rate has steadily been increasing. So some experts wonder if drug use would be significantly lower if they were legal.

*Nod.* I would say that the crime rate would definitely go down, because there wouldn't be a reason for the drug and thug life. It might actually help some inner cities, since the drug money would significantly lessen street crime enough for folks to feel safe again and want to help the deteriorating neighborhoods. But it's a trade off.

It depends. In your example of alcohol reduction, was the alcohol rate reduced because people suddenly didn't have the "thrill" of drinking illegally? That it lost its appeal? Or did it drop off because people didn't care about it so much (stigma of it disappeared?). It's hard to say what would happen if some drugs were legalized in the US. We still have issues with prescription drug abuse and legalizing certain drugs through our doctors or making them available in limited amounts OTC won't change those situations. It might lessen the overt problems we see in the streets, but I think other problems would go to ground.

Meh. It's six of one, half dozen of another. I think we'd have fewer problems (street crimes, etc) if we legalized it now. We almost have to, because Pandora's box was opened up in the late 50s/early 60s when the harder drugs flowed into the inner cities and people became addicted to the escape of drugs. I have several uncles who are part of the drug trade and it frustrates me because not only have they destroyed their lives, but they've destroyed some of my cousin's lives by selling it to them. My uncles got their nephews and nieces hooked on drugs for money! That's inconceivable to me...so I'm in the middle on this issue. I want the cycle broken, but the only way that can happen is if drug use loses its stigma *and* people decide to get clean and sober for the sake of their families.

It's almost a losing battle.

 

[Satya]

I disagree. The way I see it we have two choices.

1. Keep drugs criminalized and continue spending hundreds of billions on fighting drug production in foreign countries and building prisons in our own country to house drug offenders while never putting much of a dent in the rate of drug abuse.

2. Legalize drugs and regulate and tax them so that the money that is accrued can be invested in education and treatment programs while likely creating a big reduction in drug abuse.

For your family, would you rather see them locked up or getting the treatment they need?

 

[arbygil]

I disagree. The way I see it we have two choices.

1. Keep drugs criminalized and continue spending hundreds of billions on fighting drug production in foreign countries and building prisons in our own country to house drug offenders while never putting much of a dent in the rate of drug abuse.

2. Legalize drugs and regulate and tax them so that the money that is accrued can be invested in education and treatment programs while likely creating a big reduction in drug abuse.

For your family, would you rather see them locked up or getting the treatment they need?

I know, Satya...I really do. And I abhor the absolute financial waste of funneling all this effort into a losing war. There's no way we can ever catch up with the drug lords or the cartels. It's a world market, and the US is their largest customer. We cause the gang wars in other countries due to our over indulgent sh!t...everyone scrambles to get some of the money we funnel down there for drugs. Police officers will tell you that the war on drugs is a waste of time and energy, and it's a never ending battle. There is no moral high ground, and we know it. It's the rest of America that doesn't get it.

But it's hard to reconcile the idea, too. It's hard for me to accept drug legalization, even though I know it's a logical choice. Why? Because I know just how quickly folks get addicted and it's hard to see family members make that choice. It's logical to legalize drugs. But accepting it as fact is far from easy.

Jail...they've been there. It hasn't solved the problems in their lives or the lives of my family (federal prison is the next step for some). So I know jail doesn't work. In fact, it's laughable - the offenders can get drugs in prison fairly easily. But outright legalization is (pardon the pun) a hard pill to swallow.

 

[just me]

Ah, I see faith in a belief from somewhere out there. Stop the black market? Lotta faith there.
Almost a losing battle? An observation I can relate to.

 

[Satya]

Liberty scares people. People are afraid that if others are allowed too much freedom then they will abuse it. Simply put, people expect the worst of human nature. That often comes from the Protestant mindset that humans are naturally lazy, inept, and disgusting creatures unworthy of walking this earth. It is unfortunate that we can't trust in one another enough to have a free society and we feel compelled to legislate morality that we know will not work, but when people are controlled by their fear that is the inevitable outcome.

 

[Satya]

Ah, I see faith in a belief from somewhere out there. Stop the black market? Lotta faith there.
Almost a losing battle? An observation I can relate to.

I actually support my views with economic and historical fact. All you are doing is making assertions on faith and fear.

Try reading up on this thing we had in the country called the Prohibition. Where did the black markets on alcohol go once alcohol was legalized?

 

[the]

How does one deal with a country supported mainly by drug money? Does one starve the citizens or people that live there? Destroy the fields and henceforth destroy the ability to find another crop? Burn them and look the other way? How does one deal with it? There are some rather intelligent people on this website. What to do? I think this is political....

What is the reason we are dealing with this country in the first place?

 

[aeon]

From my political ideal of enlightened anarchy and personal liberty, my sense is that drugs should be legal and available on the market.

From my pragmatic sense of what would work best right now, given the current political situation, my sense is that drugs should be legal and available on the market.

Regarding the question of "How does one deal with a country supported by drug $$?," my answer is to leave them alone. Under the current world model, I value sovereignty.


cheers,
Ian

 

[PsilocinProject]

There has to be a balance, though (lol...I'm all about balance). I believe in some cases drugs could be legalized, and in some cases they shouldn't. We have OTC medications after all, and some of those medications can be and are used improperly - so really, what's the difference in legalization of an illegal drug? You can grow certain drugs in your backyard and hardly anyone would know about it except for certain officers of the law and their animals. And if we wanted to balance our economy, I could think of no other way than to legalize pot at special places and tax the heck out of it. Contact highs could be a problem, though...

Still. Even legalizing an item doesn't necessarily change the issues or the problems of a culture. You just trade one problem, for another. Alcohol is one case. Prohibition caused a lot of lawlessness and illegal activity and gang warfare. Then prohibition was repealed, great! But now? We have DUIs and alcoholism and social ills due to the over consumption of alcohol. You trade one problem, for another.

The question might be this: What is the lesser of the two evils? If we legalize certain drugs, will we put more money into social programs that help addicts get clean? Will we put more money into police patrols so fewer DUI accidents occur? Etc., etc. Legalization changes the problems. It doesn't eliminate them.

I can tell you exactly why that is. I've seen it happen in front of me.
It's the horrible legislation against the people that DO stupid shit. The guy before me, when I went to court, was on his twelfth DUI. The judge actually had the nuts to say "This is the last time. Next time, you're going to the big house."

I was fucking stunned. He should have gone to the "Big house" on his second or third DUI! He can literally endanger other human beings' lives and health and get away scott-free twelve fucking times; whereas I get caught, simply with an herb that's been used for over 5,000 years, twice and my ass gets sent to jail.

The legalization isn't the only issue. It's having the common sense and judicial judgment to punish those who put others in horrible situations. The system is fucked and it's obvious.

Edit, for jail comment: It happens to be exceptionally easy to get drugs in jail. The most commonly used is LSD, due to it being so easy to transport and hide. Putting all these people behind bars in the same place creates a more wide-spread network for the transportation of drugs and money. Again: The system is fucked.

 

[TheLastMohican]

Exactly! They were saved from a psychological addiction as opposed to all the people who suffer physical dependence on legal substances like alcohol and tobacco.

Not only that, they were saved from using marijuana as a gateway drug. You know how it is, you dull the pain with pot, and then get this irresistible urge to switch to crystal meth. It ruins lives, I tell you (even those that are almost over)!

 

[Creon]

Soft drugs should be legal, no point debating any further about that. Their impact to society is small, addiction to soft drugs is almost impossible(people smoke weed most of the times because they love it, not because they need it). I've been to Amsterdam twice and their system really works (note that you are only allowed to smoke in coffee shops and in your house).

But you're making a small mistake there satya. When our alcohol prohibition (Greece) ended, the black market and crime indeed suffered a terrible blow, but alcohol consumption actually increased. Everybody drinks today, but very few are drunkards. Problem is, alcohol has actually very little in common with heroin, for example. And if you want to avoid a "mass-junkie" situation, you have to cure everyone and count on them to stay away from them. I doudt that would ever happen.

 

[Satya]

Not only that, they were saved from using marijuana as a gateway drug. You know how it is, you dull the pain with pot, and then get this irresistible urge to switch to crystal meth. It ruins lives, I tell you (even those that are almost over)!

I used to live in one of the meth capitals of the world. You couldn't buy more than one box of sulfur tipped matches or more than one bottle of cough syrup because those things could be used in the manufacturing of meth. I wonder if people really realize how ridiculous things have gotten.

 

[Satya]

But you're making a small mistake there satya. When our alcohol prohibition (Greece) ended, the black market and crime indeed suffered a terrible blow, but alcohol consumption actually increased. Everybody drinks, but very few are drunkards. Problem is, alcohol has actually very little in common with heroin, for example. And if you want to avoid a "mass-junkie" situation, you have to cure everyone and count on them to stay away from them. I doudt that would ever happen.

That I disagree with. The sources I have seen indicate that alcohol consumption in the United States saw a general decline over the years after Prohibition. I don't know if it is fair to compare Greece to the United States.

Also, as you seemed to hint, there is a big difference between alcohol use and alcohol abuse.

 

[TheLastMohican]

But you're making a small mistake there satya. When our alcohol prohibition (Greece) ended, the black market and crime indeed suffered a terrible blow, but alcohol consumption actually increased.

Well, duh, not everyone who had the occasional drink before and after Prohibition valued it enough to break the law. Did the fact that they starting drinking again make society worse off? I think Al Capone with a surplus of cash (and consequently ammunition) was far more detrimental to the peace than a few dozen more tipsy businessman being in the bars after work.

 

[Creon]

Well, duh, not everyone who had the occasional beer before and after Prohibition valued it enough to break the law. Did the fact that they starting drinking beer again make society worse off? I think Al Capone with a surplus of cash (and consequently ammunition) was far more detrimental to the peace than a few dozen more tipsy businessman being in the bars after work.

Yes, but we can't compare beer with heroin.

 

[TheLastMohican]

The sources I have seen indicate that alcohol consumption in the United States saw a general decline over the years after Prohibition.

What are the figures based on? Do they account for the consumption of moonshine?

Yes, but we can't compare beer with heroin.

Why not?

 

[Shai Gar]

just me, that is utter and complete bull. Sharia courts punish drug offenders.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...Group-Lashkar-e-Islam/Article/200903415248317

Which is what the Taliban were doing. Only they were also clamping down on the poppy (heroin/opium) trade.

 

[Creon]

That I disagree with. The sources I have seen indicate that alcohol consumption in the United States saw a general decline over the years after Prohibition. I don't know if it is fair to compare Greece to the United States.

Also, as you seemed to hint, there is a big difference between alcohol use and alcohol abuse.

You are right about the comparison thing, but if that happened once in America, that doesn't mean it's the law, since it didn't happen in our case. Olus we're talking about different levels of addiction.

 

[Lucifer]

What of crack and cocaine and crystal meth?

Are those drugs to dangerous to be legalized.

I guess a compromise would be to do something like they have with regular prescription drugs. Have some substances more controlled then others.

And there is a little fear in the back of my mind that legalizing marijuana will turn it into a corporate deal.

That would kind of ruin the culture.