How does one deal with a country supported by drug $$? | Page 5 | INFJ Forum

How does one deal with a country supported by drug $$?

Theres physical dependence and psychological addiction. They need to be distinguished! I think we are in an era of time-limitations, which means stress and anxiety. Therefore it is easy to seek out a alleviating substance.

It has been said that there is an 'addictive personality' type of role, one which is more impulsive. One may have genetic predispositions and lastly interactive social implications may lead one to drugs.
 
They have made us their enemies. We did not make them ours.

You might want to look up the history of Israel a bit more. You might be surprised how much we have done and continue to do that makes us an enemy to some Muslim societies.

Those are my predictions.
Sounds like the same kind of predictions that people had for the Soviet Union. Fear is not a good place to look to when trying to see the future.
 
The legalization of drugs carries a higher price than I think most people are considering.

Yeah, it makes sense that it would possibly hurt the drug cartels and other countries who depend on America's drug money....would reduce the number of people in jail for soft drug crimes, possibly lessen street crimes (and I have extreme reservations about that). After all, this did somewhat happen during prohibition.

But like someone pointed out there are other fallout issues from the re-legalization of alcohol. DUI...Which with todays more powerful, but also fiberglass, plastic and aluminum cars makes DUI accidents potentially more devastating to the unimpaired involved.

The long term effects of alcoholism....eventually after years and years of abuse the body loses its ability to take it. Effects include but aren't limited to:

hepatitis and cirrhosis of the liver
gastritis (inflammation of the stomach lining) or pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas)
high blood pressure (which can lead to stroke)
certain types of cancer, including mouth and throat
damage to the brain
heart failure
neurological problems such as epilepsy
certain types of vitamin deficiency

So? You're thinking this is alcohol not drugs whats your point.

My point is that all of the above come with a price tag. A medical price tag. And this is just to the adult who is an long term alcohol abuser. What about the babies who are born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome because their birth mom's continue to drink? What about the children who are born to mothers who smoke through their pregnancies? Not only is that childs life irrevocably altered, but the tax payers end up fotting the bill for postnatal treatment as well as public assistance later down the road.

If this is what is happening with just alcohol and cigarettes what will the effect be when drugs, soft or otherwise are brought into the picture. When the acquisition of pot, ectasy, lsd, is as easy as walking to the nearest smoke shop or cafe? Or even as easy as the medicine cabinet in the bathroom?

Who is going to pay for the care of people whose brains are fried from LSD, or when the effects of long-term heavy pot use become better understood?

And the unseen effects of pot aren't going to stop there. Its bad enough that at any particular moment 8% of drivers are intoxicated. And it's okay to add MORE impaired drivers to the road?

Mention was made, (by PsilocinProject I believe) about the Drunk Driver getting a slap on the wrist for the 12th offense. Along with the laughable admonishment by the judge...anyhow. Why is this person driving? Is the logical question that anyone would ask. The answer is because its nearly impossible to stop them! Doesn't matter how many cars have been impounded, he can just go out and buy another one. I've seen lots of people go ahead and drive while they are intoxicated. No one listens to reason, everyone has the same excuse "I'm good...I'm good." Everyone will have the same excuse on drugs as well. leading to more impaired drivers and more dangerous driving conditions.

My problem with ectasy is the drugs ability to take away inhibition. It would just be a matter of time (likely about 1 hour of the drug being available) before some enterprising individuals start slipping ectasy into drinks or foods with the intention of taking advantage of someone else. Need I go anymore in depth with this and where it goes?

There are plenty of jokes made about slipping laxatives into people foods as a prank. Its only a matter of time before someones prank ends very badly as an LSD trip goes bad and someone slits their wrists, or takes a gun to someone they percieve as being a threat.

We don't want our taxes being raised as it is. Is the money supposedly gained by the legalization of the so called 'soft drugs' really going to be enough to cover all of societies expenses that will result from the availibility and 'permission' to use. Will it cover the lifelong expenses of children born to drug using mothers? Will it cover the living needs of individuals who have burned out their brains with heavy drug use in their youth and are now incapable of getting jobs that offer a living wage and health benefits? Are all of us as a society really willing to pay the way for people who indulge in such destructive substances?

I'm not trying to imply that these problems don't already exsist in our society. I am not implying that they aren't already a problem. But legalizing drugs would in my opinion, make them a bigger and more expensive problem than they are right now.
 
I would like to make it clear that all drugs that are illegal became criminalized because they became popular for a purpose other than theraputic.

Therefore a country would actually have most to gain by decriminalizing a drug. Alcohol is just as dangerous as other drugs but it is still legal.

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I would consider the drugs that do not act on the dopamine receptors (not physically dependent) to be soft, such as Ecstasy, LSD and the smokes. Hence, it is arguable though to argue for psychological dependence though... which is the mentally unstable factor in all of this.
 
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@alcyone

The Justice system is currently overburdened by all the drug crimes it has to process. The prisons are overpopulated as a result of all the the drug crime related criminals they are holding. In some states, they are releasing sex and violent crime offenders to make room for more drug offenders.

Now if you legalize the drugs, all that money, all that time, and all those resources can then be utilized to take intoxicated drivers off the street, improve health care, and finance treatment centers.

There is a price tag for legalizing drugs, but it is nowhere near as large as the price tag on keeping them criminalized.
 
The Justice system is currently overburdened by all the drug crimes it has to process. The prisons are overpopulated as a result of all the the drug crime related criminals they are holding. In some states, they are releasing sex and violent crime offenders to make room for more drug offenders.

Yes, but we also have a privately owned prison industry that often 'rents' out their prisoners as cheap labor. You can't do such a thing with violent offenders. So from their point of view it's good to have an influx of cheap, nearly slave, labor.
 
Making distinctions regarding the user of a drug and a dealer/trafficker of a drug would have a similar cost benefit.

Release the user with a token sentence and a note on their records.

Keep the dealers in the prisons.
 
The legalization of drugs carries a higher price than I think most people are considering.

Yeah, it makes sense that it would possibly hurt the drug cartels and other countries who depend on America's drug money....would reduce the number of people in jail for soft drug crimes, possibly lessen street crimes (and I have extreme reservations about that). After all, this did somewhat happen during prohibition.

But like someone pointed out there are other fallout issues from the re-legalization of alcohol. DUI...Which with todays more powerful, but also fiberglass, plastic and aluminum cars makes DUI accidents potentially more devastating to the unimpaired involved.
... Even if alcohol or other drugs would be illegal... People would still be driving around and doing them. What makes you think they'd just stay at home, unless the penalties of driving under the influence are worse?

The long term effects of alcoholism....eventually after years and years of abuse the body loses its ability to take it. Effects include but aren't limited to:

hepatitis and cirrhosis of the liver
gastritis (inflammation of the stomach lining) or pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas)
high blood pressure (which can lead to stroke)
certain types of cancer, including mouth and throat
damage to the brain
heart failure
neurological problems such as epilepsy
certain types of vitamin deficiency

So? You're thinking this is alcohol not drugs whats your point.

My point is that all of the above come with a price tag. A medical price tag. And this is just to the adult who is an long term alcohol abuser. What about the babies who are born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome because their birth mom's continue to drink? What about the children who are born to mothers who smoke through their pregnancies? Not only is that childs life irrevocably altered, but the tax payers end up fotting the bill for postnatal treatment as well as public assistance later down the road.

If this is what is happening with just alcohol and cigarettes what will the effect be when drugs, soft or otherwise are brought into the picture. When the acquisition of pot, ectasy, lsd, is as easy as walking to the nearest smoke shop or cafe? Or even as easy as the medicine cabinet in the bathroom?

Who is going to pay for the care of people whose brains are fried from LSD, or when the effects of long-term heavy pot use become better understood?

And the unseen effects of pot aren't going to stop there. Its bad enough that at any particular moment 8% of drivers are intoxicated. And it's okay to add MORE impaired drivers to the road?
No. That's why we need heavier legislation against those that commit DUIs.

Mention was made, (by PsilocinProject I believe) about the Drunk Driver getting a slap on the wrist for the 12th offense. Along with the laughable admonishment by the judge...anyhow. Why is this person driving? Is the logical question that anyone would ask. The answer is because its nearly impossible to stop them! Doesn't matter how many cars have been impounded, he can just go out and buy another one. I've seen lots of people go ahead and drive while they are intoxicated. No one listens to reason, everyone has the same excuse "I'm good...I'm good." Everyone will have the same excuse on drugs as well. leading to more impaired drivers and more dangerous driving conditions.

My problem with ectasy is the drugs ability to take away inhibition. It would just be a matter of time (likely about 1 hour of the drug being available) before some enterprising individuals start slipping ectasy into drinks or foods with the intention of taking advantage of someone else. Need I go anymore in depth with this and where it goes?
I can imagine where you think it would go...
But I can tell you, the "Inhibition loss" from ecstasy is way less than that of alcohol. Take my word for it, I've had way more women showing me their boobs when their drunk than when they're rolling.

There are plenty of jokes made about slipping laxatives into people foods as a prank. Its only a matter of time before someones prank ends very badly as an LSD trip goes bad and someone slits their wrists, or takes a gun to someone they percieve as being a threat.
Any human being that would drop LSD or ANY other psychoactives into drinks as a laugh is a fucked up individual.
Then again, members of the CIA were doing it to eachother in the late 60's. Ironic, eh?

We don't want our taxes being raised as it is. Is the money supposedly gained by the legalization of the so called 'soft drugs' really going to be enough to cover all of societies expenses that will result from the availibility and 'permission' to use. Will it cover the lifelong expenses of children born to drug using mothers? Will it cover the living needs of individuals who have burned out their brains with heavy drug use in their youth and are now incapable of getting jobs that offer a living wage and health benefits? Are all of us as a society really willing to pay the way for people who indulge in such destructive substances?
Most users of psychedelics are only one-time users.
"Burnouts" are pretty uncommon. Schizophrenics that drop acid is a much more common thing. Even then, it's been shown that schizophrenia and bipolar disorders can actually be helped by LSD or mushroom use.

I've said this a million times: But LSD, in the 70's was hailed as a cure for alcoholism. People with horrible addictions were treated with acid and never had a drop of alcohol again.

I'm not trying to imply that these problems don't already exsist in our society. I am not implying that they aren't already a problem. But legalizing drugs would in my opinion, make them a bigger and more expensive problem than they are right now.
So, you'd rather keep filling our prison systems with non-violent drug offenders at $50,000 per year per person?
State prisons held a total of 1,296,700 inmates on all charges at yearend 2005. In absolute numbers an estimated 687,700 inmates in State prison at yearend 2005 (the latest year for which offense data is available) were held for violent offenses: 166,700 for murder, 177,900 for robbery, 129,200 for assault, and 164,600 for rape and other sexual assaults. In addition, 248,900 inmates were held for property offenses, 253,300 for drug offenses, and 98,700 for public-order offenses.
Man. 250,000 people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses...
$12,500,000,000/year to house these inmates that literally hurt nobody.

I dunno about you but I think I'd rather let them do their thing and try to treat those that need help.

Just to reiterate: That's twelve-billion, five-hundred million dollars that could be used to improve things. Let's not mention the amount of revenue that could come just from selling legalized drugs.
 
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It comes down to one taking responsibility for one's own actions and life. If one has a prediliction for addiction, genetic or psychological, one can choose the addiction or the assistance to avoid the addiction.
Legalising drugs merely adheres a label from governments which says 'this is okay to use and we approve'. This gives one a way to justify falling into addiction. Tobacco and alcohol have these labels, regardless of all the government and medical data against them, and therefore people are justified in their choice to use.

I smoke cigarettes and have so since I was 16. I am now 56. This is 40 years of addiction. Hard to break? You betcha.
But I am trying to cut down with the goal of stopping.
So, in the light of taking responsibility for my own actions, I am in the process of speaking with my lawyer about the legal ramifications of writing a legal document which states that if it is medically proven that, in the event I develop cancer, especially lung cancer, and this cancer developed from my smoking, then treatment will be refused.

This addiction was, and is, my choice and I must take responsibility for my choice. Cigarettes did not impel me to choose them or continue my use of them. I did, even though I knew of all the data regarding their destructive results, I still chose to smoke.
Hence, I will not expect others in society to bear the burden and expense of something I chose to do freely.

Life is about individual choice, not seeking justification for one's actions from outside sources.
 
My grievance with our society as it is currently is its lack of vision. If I know a dog is going to bite me, it does not mean I am against dogs. Some dogs bite and some do not. We are playing with fire and the rest of the world wants to look the other way.

A Pittbull is a wonderful gentle dog, intelligent, loyal and brave. If you abuse it, it'll attack you, or passer bys.
Dogs don't attack because they're a dog, dogs only attack if they're abused.

People are the same.
 
Making distinctions regarding the user of a drug and a dealer/trafficker of a drug would have a similar cost benefit.

Release the user with a token sentence and a note on their records.

Keep the dealers in the prisons.

Why punish one dealer and allow the other to stay?

You've still got beer and tobacco dealers on the streets.
 
There are plenty of jokes made about slipping laxatives into people foods as a prank. Its only a matter of time before someones prank ends very badly as an LSD trip goes bad and someone slits their wrists, or takes a gun to someone they percieve as being a threat.
This is a very good point as I deal violently and harshly with real threats. If someone drugged me to the point where I'm perceiving threats inaccurately, you're putting a lot of people in danger.

There are other people like me who are psychopathically violent, but keep it under wraps though self control. When that self control is removed, and there are chemically induced threats, I shudder to think what'll happen.
 
Making distinctions regarding the user of a drug and a dealer/trafficker of a drug would have a similar cost benefit.

Release the user with a token sentence and a note on their records.

Keep the dealers in the prisons.

Been tried and it doesn't work. Where there is a buyer there will always be a seller. The laws of economics won't change just to suit your crime and punishment sensibilities.

The solution rests in legalization and treatment, not in trying to find new and harsher ways to punish people. At what point are you going to stop? When we have the death penalty for selling drugs and the drug rate is still going up? Take a look at the current penalties and tell me how much further we have to go before that is the reality.
 
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... Even if alcohol or other drugs would be illegal... People would still be driving around and doing them. What makes you think they'd just stay at home, unless the penalties of driving under the influence are worse?

Whether or not penalites are worse, it won't stop people so that is a non-arguement. Maybe my point wasn't clear. Having more substances available for people to impair themselves on will end with more people being impaired and on the roads. So why make it easier for people to get impaired on a wider range of substances and then go drive on them?

I can imagine where you think it would go...
But I can tell you, the "Inhibition loss" from ecstasy is way less than that of alcohol. Take my word for it, I've had way more women showing me their boobs when their drunk than when they're rolling.

Something only needs to happen once for it to be one too many times. And your experiences with the lack of inhibition loss, or lack of women showing your their boobs for that matter, are your personal experiences and not necessarily in the center of a probability curve. I've been out and drunk lots of times and have never shown my boobs, butt, or crotch to anyone either.

Any human being that would drop LSD or ANY other psychoactives into drinks as a laugh is a fucked up individual.
Then again, members of the CIA were doing it to eachother in the late 60's. Ironic, eh?

Ironic yeah, but also demonstrates that it is going to happen, and probably fairly frequently.

Most users of psychedelics are only one-time users.
"Burnouts" are pretty uncommon. Schizophrenics that drop acid is a much more common thing. Even then, it's been shown that schizophrenia and bipolar disorders can actually be helped by LSD or mushroom use.

I've said this a million times: But LSD, in the 70's was hailed as a cure for alcoholism. People with horrible addictions were treated with acid and never had a drop of alcohol again.

This is substantiated here http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/lsd-treatment-for-alcoholism-gets-new-look-11680.html. However, while it potentially shows some promise as a medical tool for the treatment of alcohol addiction....That does NOT mean it should be made available to whomever wants it whenever they want it. The study says that the patients were treated in a controlled and nurturing atmosphere. How many people would assume they are medical professionals and are capable of doing a home-treatment for their other addictions?

So, you'd rather keep filling our prison systems with non-violent drug offenders at $50,000 per year per person?
Man. 250,000 people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses...
$12,500,000,000/year to house these inmates that literally hurt nobody.

Just because they've been imprisioned for a drug offense doesn't necessarily mean they are non-violent. The statistics aren't available for those inmates who pled to a lesser drug charge for the DA's dropping the violence related charges. To some degree it seems that you are basing your arguements on yourself. You being a drug user and non-violent doesn't mean all drug users are the same way.


Just to reiterate: That's twelve-billion, five-hundred million dollars that could be used to improve things. Let's not mention the amount of revenue that could come just from selling legalized drugs.


It's a high estimate considering that a lot of those imprisoned for drug charges would likely be re-imprisioned for violent crimes. Just because the drugs they want are available doesn't mean that they can get them. Theft, robbery and burglary crimes would all rise so that people could get what they wanted. The Judicial system would still be overwhelmed, the prisons would still be full, and the police would still be undermanned.

As far as the potential revenue from the sale of legalized drugs, this report details the costs involved in drug use.

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/pdf/economic_costs98.pdf

The healthcare costs in 2000 were 14.9 Billion dollars. That wipes out any savings by putting currently jailed drug offenders back on the streets.
 
This is a very good point as I deal violently and harshly with real threats. If someone drugged me to the point where I'm perceiving threats inaccurately, you're putting a lot of people in danger.

There are other people like me who are psychopathically violent, but keep it under wraps though self control. When that self control is removed, and there are chemically induced threats, I shudder to think what'll happen.
... I don't think you'd perceive the walls melting as an immediate threat that you could fight.

Hell, if anything, LSD would probably tear down your will to fight. Probably just break you down and make you realize there's nothing you can do but go with the flow. That, or stay in a horrible place where your internal issues come to face you. They won't appear as external demons that you can fight- They'll come to you in the form of unrelenting realizations. They'll tear you down and make you feel inhuman- Ego death. Then, you'll be reborn, after complete ego destruction.

That's what a bad trip on LSD is. It isn't thinking there are monsters out to get you. It isn't jumping out of a third story window because you think you can fly(Shit, one could consider that a good trip, except for the end result). It's horrible revelations about yourself and the path that you're traveling.

Yeah.