Help Greece? | INFJ Forum

Help Greece?

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by Krumplenump, Mar 19, 2010.

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  1. EU citizen, YES, help Greece in the name of European fraternity

    40.0%
  2. Non-EU citizen, YES, help Greece

    20.0%
  3. EU citizen, NO, because my country should use the funds for it's own people

    6.7%
  4. EU citizen, NO, because Greece has frittered away the huge sums of money the EU's granted it over 30

    13.3%
  5. Non-EU citizen, NO, don't help Greece

    20.0%
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  1. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    So for the EU citizens here, who feels happy that they may have to chip in to the massive sum of money that would have to be given to greece to get it out of it's mess?

    Take into account the fact that a small country of 10 million has managed to rack up debts of nearly half a trillion dollars, which is about half of the entire gnp of the US per year. They've been in the union since 1981 yet have been nothing but a net receiver of funds for nearly 30 years.

    The populations of countries like germany, who would have to part with billions to help Greece, are largely against it and understandably so in my opinion. So what are you opinions?
     
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  2. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Greece is to the EU what Alaska is to the United States.

    Just be happy that Greece doesn't have Sarah Palin.
     
  3. Puck

    Puck Perilous Pixie
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    I'm totally in favour of helping bail Greece out. For a start, I suggest that all literary works of ancient Greek origin (that would of course be out of copyright) that are sold from now on, should have a percentage of their sale price donated to the Greek government.
     
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  4. OP
    Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    Woha, I really don't see how the post classical economic foolery conducted by successive Greek governments since 1981 derserves royalties for the work of ancient writers. Like many Mediterranean countries, corruption and idiocy concerning national finance are widespread. Throwing money at Greece would only be a short term solution. It's like throwing money at the Sudan in the full know-how it would go straight into the pockets of the Janjaweed, though obviously on a less extreme scale.

    If I were living in the EU I would not be happy thinking my taxes might rise to fund the corruption and evident three decade-long incompetence of Greek governments in handling, distributing and investing EU funds.

    Furthermore I wouldn't be happy thinking that a percentage of my money used to buy a copy of the Iliad for example would go to a government that as late as the 1990's turned a blind eye to various ex-army generals who trained PKK terrorists in Syria.

    Imo Greece is an example of what Bulgaria and especially Romania will become to the EU: an economical and financial burden with never the intention of eventually becoming a net contributor to the coffers in Brussels, quietly scoffing at the original founding precept of European brotherhood in the mean time. They will take, take, take and too many western EU citizens in my opinion have far too rosy a view of the country that 'gave us democracy, Homer and Aristotle'
     
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    #4 Krumplenump, Mar 19, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2010
  5. Poetic Justice

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    So long as the people who caused the problem in the first place are given the boot first then absolutely we should help them.

    The only reason not to is if they are just going to do the same thing over again.

    We shouldn't blame an entire country for the actions of a few greedy idiots.
     
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  6. OP
    Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    Fair comment, but three decades of EU funds have yielded little more than spend-a-holic government after spend-a-holic government. This is likely to be somewhat indicative of the general national mentality. Sure, over time it may improve as it has with other states who have started to be net contributors rather than takers, but the issue is whether or not other EU states will feel happy with - or obliged to - fund this improvement at such fantastically a huge financial cost and over another 3 potential decades.

    I think Greece has failed in it's commitments it agreed to upon joining the union, and therefore perpetual bail outs will solve nothing.
     
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  7. Puck

    Puck Perilous Pixie
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    That would be me then. To be honest, you really sound like you know what you're talking about, whereas I'm just speaking from poetic idealism, but my feelings remain the same, because that's the kind of world I prefer to live in.
     
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  8. Poetic Justice

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    The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get different results.

    Throwing money at them obviously isn't going to work so some kind of legislative change needs to occur to prevent the wasting of funds.

    A condition of the bailout should be an international team oversees the spending of the funds and they should have to justify every penny spent through an agreed system of output targets

    I doubt they would agree to this though
     
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  9. OP
    Krumplenump

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    Ah, if only :)

    Interesting, though the snag would be that to keep a beady eye on the thrift of the Greek government would cost a lot too, that is the funding of an overseeing team and all the legistlation and paperwork involved.

    If Greece is left to fend for its self this time, when it emerged from the monetary murk (and it will, eventually) it may have adopted, through having to, some more independent and specific policies that better suit it's own people rather than fits in with EU targets.
     
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  10. Poetic Justice

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    The problems were probably caused by people in power (be they bankers, politicians or whatever) putting personal gain above the well being of the general public.

    Leaving these same people free reign to handle the rebuilding of the economy can only end one way.
     
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  11. enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    While people still keep track of who 'gave' what, and which are the 'pig countries' in Europe, we're still in the jungle. Yes, of course, with the current infrastructure, economic structure, population and education, there is still severe inequality among the countries in Europe. To pretend it's mainly because the people in some countries just 'work harder' is completely misleading. Before all, they use cheap workers from the poorer countries, to do all their hard work, so that it appears to them they are doing more hard work as a country. And it would take many years of using other countries' cheap workers, in order to build such factories, roads etc all around the EU. People who 'work more', especially at the level of countries, just have the better conditions to learn this and to do this. A proof is that a newborn from Greece would develop the working ethic of a German, if adopted there. So what exactly is this pseudo-justice trying to blame? When all the factors are accounted for, it would seem as if someone beats another person and then blames them for getting beaten and so weak. Well, of course, that's completely alright in some radical libertarian schools of thought, but it seems most animals with non-trivial nervous system would have to object to such worldview as 'natural', including when it comes to other species.

    It's not only Greece. Iceland is very deeply pwned by the UK bankers too. When do we say: stop? It may well become so that all countries of Europe are servants of just one country, say Germany, in this game of poker that we play. Sending some money to Greece and creating hatred within the citizens of other countries is not even the real solution. But speaking in very short term it appears to be necessary. Meanwhile it would help if people think about all these issues a little beyond their neighborhood. Notice that while the Euro may be destabilized, the dollar will get back to its feet. Who gains from this? Ah-haa.. But even this Euro vs Dollar game is a complete nonsense, which cannot last for too long.
     
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    #11 enfp can be shy, Mar 19, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2010
  12. bamf

    bamf Is Watching You
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    Well, I don't know much about the EU, but as long as Greece is in the EU, aren't they open to receiving such help? Isn't shared economics part of the union? If they aren't going to lend to Greece without some sort of oversight, but complain about their spending of money...should Greece even be in the EU?

    I feel that as long as Greece is in the EU, they're open to such help. Didn't Spain get a shit ton of money when the EU was started to build highways? I would have been pissed to be living in Britain and pay for infrastructure in Spain...but the EU has a single market economy, right? If other countries don't want to pay Greece, either add some oversight/conditions, or kick them out, but as long as they're in the union, it's everyone's problem.
     
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  13. Poetic Justice

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    We need to define what we mean by "help"

    I think we should do something

    But I don't think we should just give them loads of money
     
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  14. OP
    Krumplenump

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    The state of the 'infrastructure, economic structure, population and education' of any given country is indicative in itself of, to an extent, the national mentality. I agree that gauging a country's success by making assumptions over the population's work ethic is a bit simplistic, but a country such as Greece has been independent since 1821, not had it's population decimated through slavery or it's economy manhandled by foreign powers - unlike many African countries for example - so saying that blaming Greece for it's current condition is like 'beating them down and then blaming them for getting beaten' really doesn't hold well imo. The economic and subsequently social woes Greece has faced/is facing (very much like other European Mediterranean countries) is chiefly down to themselves. Perhaps key in the precarious nature of their infrastructures until very recently was and to a certain extent still is (especially in Greece) political unrest and a constant friction between left and right. A national goal is often split and viewed through 2 polarised prisms of political governance, and thus a sense of working towards one target is never fully achieved. How much this affects economic stability I don't know but I'd wager it plays a role, at least indirectly.

    Iceland isn't in the EU btw, even though it submitted an application last year.

    Yeah Spain sucked billions upon billions of Euros out of the UK taxpayer for roads. It's rather ironic that the comparatively unused pristine highways of Iberia are such a stark difference to the pot-holed roads in England that are constantly blighted with sporadic road works manned by phantom workers that never seem to be there. I could see more sense in countries like Finland or Sweden contributing to Spain's [now arguably superior] road network, since they're considerably more affluent on a per capita basis than the UK. The UK, as a founding member and because of it's global interests and influence, is expected to part with far higher sums of money despite the fact it is needed and should be used to improve many ailing and archaic facilities for itself.
     
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  15. Scatterbrane

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    So the problem is institutional corruption. What's the proper response to that problem?
     
  16. enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    Iceland's situation affects the euro too, which is the main interest here. Exactly where is the fault of an assembling newborn human brain for what input it gets from the world to build its character? 'National mentality' should be called a cult instead, and not treated like the old racist properties. Because if we stole a German baby and raised it on the beaches of Greece, without all the factors to allow it to develop, we would get another tourist-oriented Greek from its mind. Besides, Greece may be free, but it didn't use third world cheap labor, and everybody knows what Gastarbeiter means. Moreover, the cases of Iceland and Greece may not at all be the last ones; the economy worldwide plays a wicked poker game of musical chairs, which makes no sense anymore. To blame those who lose the game would be sadistic, because usually it's the others' fault who abused them to lose. It becomes double abuse this way. First we make you lose, then we blame you for becoming our slave. But don't worry, it's the nature of the game. It's designed to support sado-masochism, which fortunately is not at all natural for complex life forms. Hence this game is bound to go, eventually.
     
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  17. muir

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    I think the hosting of the Olympics by Greece damaged her finances.

    The Greeks also argue that Germany stole all their gold in the second world war
     
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  18. OP
    Krumplenump

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    I am not refuting the fact that if you bring a chinese baby up in a tibetan household it will be to all extents and purposes a tibetan, but I don't think one can fob off the term 'national mentality' as though it were an archaic racist term. A chinese baby brought up in Tibet would most likely adopt elements of the general Tibetan mentality: an opposition to Han Chinese domination, the Buddhist faith and along with that various routines, customs and traditions related with work ethic etc. The same goes for any culture, including Greek people (whether they are of German mothers or not). The manana mentality of the Mediterranean is well established and most certainly has an effect on national output. Now I'm not arguing that the fault of economic failure in Greece is down purely to the national mentality, but I'm pointing out a major reason why other EU states shouldn't have to foot the bill of their recovery. Again.

    The mentality there is similar to the Turkish one, where I live, and is mostly one of individual gain. People will work their asses off for a couple of extra hundred Dollars a month (so yeah, I'm not saying they're lazy) but when it comes to spending and putting money back into the economy there's a lot of hoarding and stashing going on. This fiscal mentality is nowhere as prevalent as it once was (in Turkey and I am sure even less in Greece), but the cumulative effects remain, especially with those who get into power since they are often prone to corruption.

    You make good points though and you may well be right on it all, I just am not happy with the expectation that other EU states should bail Greece out. I mean to just look at the figures of debt for such a small country is enough to make you cringe. That amount of money pumped into any country and used well should yield social results far better than are evident in Greece.
     
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  19. Sloe Djinn

    Sloe Djinn Idiot with Internet Access.

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    In return, Greece must provide unlimited free gyros to all EU citizens for the next 30 years.
     
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  20. Poetic Justice

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    Invasion
     
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