Do you believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?
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@Rasmus @The Doctor I think I see our miscommunication. I am more of the mind that I didnt see it happen, yet I still believe. How can you say it was any way if you didnt see it? Saying 'jesus died and was rose from the dead as a body' and 'jesus died and was rose from the dead' illicits two different feelings for me. It's like having to put human qualities on God, you just cant do it. It must have been my mistake to think meaning literally meant as a body, since it was physical- I was talking about his spiritual body.
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Luke Chapter 24, chapter after Jesus was Crucified.
On the Road to Emmaus
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther.29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them.31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.
Jesus Appears to the Disciples
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
The Ascension of Jesus
50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.
Its pretty clear this isn't just a "oh its the thought that counts." And if you say "its the thought that counts," Jesus would have said to you He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
The Bible is always clear about what is a parable and what isn't, the Lord does a few things: He never tries to trick people, He never asks us to do something He has not done already, He does not ask us to do ANYTHING we truly cannot do, and He does not lie.
Feel free, just remember that in doing so you disregard most of what the Bible has to say on this matter.
@The Doctor @Saru Inc
What exactly is the misunderstanding here? What do you think I am saying? saru, will reply to your post later tonight. thanks
I think you are your spiritual body, your soul, not your physical body. So when I picture someone being raised from the dead, their earthly body has little to do with it. What do you know about this that I dont?1 Corinthians 15: said:
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Well I think it goes without saying that there are different "denominations" of atheists. There are atheists who have positive attitudes about religion, atheists who are neutral about religion, and atheists who just boil with anger anytime anything remotely religious gets mentioned. I agree that its hard to build a community around what you DON"T believe in. Atheists will begin coming together when they figure out what they DO believe in. It brings me back to the thing of having something greater than yourself. Even if Atheists don't have a deity, they can certainly believe in something greater than themselves. Or at least I think they have that potential. It might not be the nicest example, but when Atheists rallied around Marxist Leninism, you did start to see some striking thing in the arts -- Le Internationale comes to mind.
I hate to say this, but there HAS been a movement in the art world to divorce art from meaning (especially religious meaning). And these existential works tend to be dissonant, ugly, and depressing. These various modern and post modern movements are very much connected to the influence of atheism. If the idea is to create inspirational works of beauty, then I'd say you guys are off to a rough start.
I've sung religious pieces in both secular and religious choirs, and I have to say there is something missing when a religious piece is sung in a non-religious setting. Now you can say I'm crazy and imagining that, and maybe you are right, as I am a certified Bipolar II nutcase. But I say that the same neurons that drag me through hell and back also make me so excruciatingly sensitive to music, mood, and ambience, that I really do sense things other people miss. Some day someone will invent some scientific gizmo that will be able to measure what I'm talking about.
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I agree, although IMHO the best science fiction is simply religion and morality very well disguised. My preference was always for such authors as Orson Scott Card. Babylon 5 always struck me as the most scientifically accurate of sci fi TV shows, but also the most mythic and religious. However, it is certainly a genre where at least atheists feel at home.
I recently watched The Hunger Games. Did you see it? Two things struck me a odd about it. The first was that the culture was completely flat -- there was no religious expression at all. The second was that in spite of the fact that it was a completely atheist culture, they still mananged to have child sacrifice... So odd.
Anyhow... are we wandering too far from the OP?
See the problem with your spiritual body theory is that it contradicts the text, according to Luke 24, John 21, Mark 16, Matthew 28, acts 1. These all show a physical account of Christ not a spiritual. Along side of that, your delving into the Gnostic idea that physical things are bad, but the text didn't support that. the spiritual body doesn't hold up either, seeing as the text states that man is both physical and spiritual.
So not surprisingly the majority of the forum is rational, whereas a good piece of it believes in magical sky wizards and zombies... how do you people reconcile that fact with the fact that he is on equal standing with pixies, leprechauns, unicorns, dragons, Odin, Zeus, uhhh fuckin... tooth fairies... ummm Sauron and vampires? Why believe in 1 fictional character and then say the rest are not real? Don't use the stock answer "faith" that's another word for arrogant ignorance. Seriously though, why do you believe in such a thing and then discount others? What is this based on? IMO and IME people who tend to believe such things are just not able to rebel against the mind melding that they have have put on them since birth, which is kind of unfortunate. And for those who dont believe he rose from the dead, but still believe in Jesus and god why bother being religious at all if you are not going to follow the rules of the religion? If you dont believe in the religion at all, but still call yourself a christian, why? Is it just easier than being honest about your truth beliefs or non-beliefs? Its certainly been harder on me since I came out and told everyone I dont believe in God some time ago so I could understand that... but I have a feeling that people wouldnt be quite so terrified to admit to that on an internet forum.
i think the answer to this question comes down to the personality of the person you are asking. there are some that if one part of one faith seems wrong, then no other part is worth believing. while there are others who believe in taking whatever good they can from a faith.
this is not to say that some are hardwired to be more faithful than others. Because it looks like hardcore atheists and hardcore Christians probably have similar personalities where it's all or nothing. either Christianity is all absolutely correct and anyone who doesn't understand that is a damned fool OR some parts of Christianity are wrong therefore all religion that ever existed on the whole planet throughout time is wrong and anyone who believed otherwise is no better than someone that believes in the tooth fairy.
do i believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead? no. i believe in a different religion. and in my religion we have the same personalities, the hardcore believers/rejecters and the wishy-washies. i fall into the hardcore category, im either all in or im folding. but the wishy-washies seem to have an easier life and more friends cuz they are able to accept the good with the bad.
this is not to say that some are hardwired to be more faithful than others. Because it looks like hardcore atheists and hardcore Christians probably have similar personalities where it's all or nothing. either Christianity is all absolutely correct and anyone who doesn't understand that is a damned fool OR some parts of Christianity are wrong therefore all religion that ever existed on the whole planet throughout time is wrong and anyone who believed otherwise is no better than someone that believes in the tooth fairy.
do i believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead? no. i believe in a different religion. and in my religion we have the same personalities, the hardcore believers/rejecters and the wishy-washies. i fall into the hardcore category, im either all in or im folding. but the wishy-washies seem to have an easier life and more friends cuz they are able to accept the good with the bad.
It's not that physical things are bad, yet they can't be the only things you live for. There needs to be a balance2 Corinthians said:
Jesus Christ has been revealed to those who believe Him.
I rejected the faith because I wanted to make rational sense of things.
I went my own way and did my own thing. That is precisely what we are comfortable doing... that's rebellion.
The truth was revealed to me in a unique way because of my stubbornness.
But I was humbled and faced with the truth, I came to know the reality of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
In Him we have the hope of glory.
I was shown the truth and the life. It happened for me only by the grace of God because I sure didn't deserve it or work for it.
For years I did have a desire to know the truth but I also wanted to live life on my own terms.
I wanted knowledge, but He knew what I needed. In His timing the truth was revealed to me.
I'm now a witness for Jesus Christ, Yeshua the Messiah, The Lord Jehovah, The Most High God, our Heavenly Father, The Holy Spirit...
I know it seems crazy, but there's no rational explanation I can share with you here.
There is life beyond this seen and temporal existence... I know that is the truth.
I am continually growing and learning more about our Father in Heaven.
Revelations keep on coming, faith keeps growing. He is beyond us, yet He loves us.
It seems your own belief is rooted in what you can see, what you comprehend with your perception...
I'm here to tell you there is something beyond this, I'm a witness of it.
I've personally experienced something extraordinary. The unseen and eternal exists beyond the rational mind.
The unseen can not be proven with empirical evidence.
No need to let that trip you up though.
Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.
If you come to Him with a sincere heart...be persistent, keep knocking.
You must realize He isn't your personal genie, don't expect him to bring a stuffed animal to life...
He desires to have communion with You.
You cannot claim that its the truth, it is impossible to know.
Eye witness testimonies are the lowest form of evidence when it comes to science. You need some form of physical evidence to back this claim up otherwise you're just talking out your butt.
Again, this not credible evidence.
This may work for you, but you are deluding yourself into thinking that you are thinking cogently.
Oh don't worry, I dont believe that anymore, that was more of a dare. The funny part is that I was quite young at that time, and its funny to me to see how far I have come from that tender age mentally and how far most religious people have not, its almost like they use a stunted mental state to remain faithful to a silly set of ideas that dont stand up to reason.
In 1 breath you tell me not to arrogantly assume what God will or will not do for me as a Genie, then in the next you are telling me what you believe Gods will is... you don't find anything ridiculous about that?
"Spiritual body" seems to be contradictory, as 'spirit' is defined by immateriality, while 'body' is defined by materiality.
However, as far as we can understand, the only things which can actively exist immaterially are identifiable by the ability to know (intellect) and the ability to choose/prefer/act (will). If we speak of a resurrected body being 'spiritualised' or 'subject to the spirit' - it means that the body is entirely subject to spiritual qualities: subject to the intellect and will.
In that earlier quote from St Paul, it seems that the dichotomy between spirit and flesh in us, is that often our intellect and will are subject to our bodies: in that we begin to think those things the body needs as being most important, and the things the body desires as being the most desirable: in other words our spirit is subject to our body. However, it seems that in a resurrected body the body is entirely subject to the spirit/soul.
Having risen from the dead is not what defines a zombie: a zombie is something that rises from the dead, with less faculties than when alive: a zombie is more dead than alive. When something rises more alive than prior to death: with more/improved faculties that is resurrection.
