The issue is that you're basing whether or not someone is rational on their religion, or lack thereof.
Ugh. Nihilism. Say what you want about the tenets of national socialism man, at least its an ethos.
@Thebiglebowski :lol: :lol:
Do you believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?
- Thread starter Billy
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The issue is that you're basing whether or not someone is rational on their religion, or lack thereof.
Ugh. Nihilism. Say what you want about the tenets of national socialism man, at least its an ethos.
@Thebiglebowski :lol: :lol:
No, not the religion, the adherence to the religion when we have evidence that supports factual basis for things said religion tries to inadequately explain. Science has not disproven God, but it has proven that god is not required for the universe to exist as it does with naturally occurring laws. If I said that every time lightning crashed it was because Jupiter Optimus was angry you would rightly say I was an idiot... but only because that is not the religious flavor of choice these days.
Science has not proven that the Universe can exist as it does without God, because it cannot prove God did not create and enforce the naturally occurring laws. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not just doing the "na na na na na you can't disprove him!" Thing, I'm merely making a point: The evidence is there, it depends on how you look at it, I see God's handiwork in everything, I find the fact that the universe runs so perfectly part of brilliance. You however see a self sustaining universe. Its kind of like Evolution, we're both looking at the same stuff, we just have different ideas, I believe I am right, and you believe you are right. But its really pointless to argue because again, at our cores we're fundamentally different, when the physical doesn't make sense, I go to the metaphysical, for you, I'll presume that when the physical doesn't make sense you simply hold out for more physical. This is why I dislike religious discussion topics, they tend to just go in circles, and that's not one party's fault or the other, its just who we are. The Bible says we can't make anyone believe in God, instead we are to show them the Bible and the Holy Spirit will work on their hearts.
I guess my only problem is the insinuation that religious people are not rational. You, (Billy) may not be making that assertion yourself, but many people have before and its tiresome. I understand the world feels like Christianity rains on peoples parades -- but look at America, based on Christian principles, was once a place for freedom and hope for all Religions and peoples, only now that it has become more secular that some of the freedom has gone. But that is a whole nother topic.
A better way of seeing it would be the soul- the result of your body and mind's interaction with the spirit. Every body is resurrected, because from whence did it come? And to where will it go? We are the soul, yet the spirit is bigger than the soul. We contain the uncontainable. It's the very idea of a virtual reality, because the physical is subject to the spiritual, which is subject to nothing.
The physical does make sense Saru, there are oceans of evidence to back up evolution. And there is no real brilliance in the universe, there's plenty of elegance, but its not perfectly designed. Stars only use 3% of their gas, we breath and eat out of the same hole in our necks, these are flawed designs. And yes, the universe have been proven from the big bang forward NOT to need a creator to exist. If you want to say then that "God" started what was there before hand you need to consider that there is no need for beginnings and ends in the realm of Quantum time becomes obsolete. Furthermore as the quote I posted before, if God is simply the benchmark for our ignorance, then he is ever receding as we learn more and more. Metaphysics while fun to talk about is really nothing.
For my part, when we reach the limits of our understanding, I don't put God there... it doesn't make sense. You need evidence for your beliefs, real tangible evidence... at the limits of our understanding I simply say "i don't know" its arrogant to conclude at those limits "its god" that's an irrational statement.
And while we were founded on Christian principles, we were also founded on SECULAR principles. The founders were not all religious people, in fact many of them were hard core secularists which is why they wrote the constitution that way. Christianity is a blight on our collective understanding of nature, it holds us back by offering gods where we need experimentation. The founders knew that when they were writing that shit up. Trust me Secular is good, you don't want to live in a Christian only land, which is i'm sure what most Christians are referring to when they say these things. That was never the goal. You are just as free to believe in whatever fairy tale you want, you just don't have a right to force it on the rest of us. For that I am thankful.
As for what the bible says, well it says a lot... it contradicts itself constantly, and is one of the most horrible books ever written based on very archaic, evil bloody ideals. Morality obviously supersedes the bible. If it didn't, people would be selling their daughters to sexual slavery, and stoning non-believers to death, which are things the bible says are OK. Of course as a social species our morality comes from a deeper place than some musty tome written by a bunch of gay hating misogynists 1400 years ago. Question, as gay guy, how can you square with all the hatred of you from your own religious cult?
Oh also, going back to what we were founded on:
Slavery and genocide. <--- typical Christian principles
As uncomfortable as that is, its a fact.
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If youre going to keep yammering on about souls you need evidence to prove they exist, you cannot factually talk about something like that because youre making it up as you go along. Why should we believe in souls as opposed to Scientology or Thor?
I'm just describing the idea. I didnt say you have to believe, though I'd like you to understand it.
The concept itself requires you to drop the idea of agreement and disagreement. It doesnt fit in either box, yet is in every box. It's like the paradox "can god make a rock so big he cant lift it? If he cant, hes not god, if he can, hes not god." That's not an agreeable way to see it and blunts you from understanding because you've tried to contain within a box the uncontainable. If doesnt have to be or not be, because it already was, is, and will be. Hopefully this is not nonsense to you, but if it is, be patient with me and ask me more questions instead of declaring something before all is heard.
All ideas must stand to reason in order to be proved true or false. Otherwise they are unworthy of consideration. To remove the process of rationality from deciphering truth vs untruth is not only absurd, but idiotic. You have yet to offer explanation as to why your fairytale is more worthy of consideration than any other, including Thor, Vampires, werewolves, fairies, santa claus etc etc. Until you can, the idea is not worthy of consideration and is not equal to other ideas.
I can't twist your arm to get you to consider it, nor would I try. It takes initiative and effort to explore beyond the physical idea of physical happenings. Is the physical plane not processed by the mental? Is the mental plane anything more than physical components? You have the capacity to see past just 'if it happened' and see why it happened. 'There is no comparing the incomparable.' The same idea you use to disprove the idea is the same idea that you use to prove it.
I do not believe in "whys" those are distractions from the "whats" and "hows". Again, your claims and ideas hold no merit if they cannot stand up to scrutiny, you jest if you believe otherwise. Life is not just our perception, reality is not just perception, the universe exists outside of human perception, it is arrogant to believe this is not so.
Because its true. Because other creatures exist aside from human beings, because long after human kind is gone the universe will expand, stars will be born and die, and the earth will turn. Because there was a world that evolved life for billions of years before us. We have the fossil records to prove this.
So now what is life?
I'm seeing pantheistic views in you, though I'm not calling you a pantheist.So now what is life?
which version of the word life? My life? or life as an engine in nature?
life as an engine in nature.
just from wikipedia-
"Pantheism is the view that the Universe (or Nature) and God (or divinity) are identical.[1] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, or anthropomorphic god. The word derives from the Greek (pan) meaning "all" and the Greek (theos) meaning "God". As such, pantheism denotes the idea that "God" is best seen as a process of relating to the Universe.[2]"
Just because you dont think like the current spiritual flavor as you put it, doesnt mean you dont have a flavor, and doesnt mean your flavor is any more 'true.'
Here is a cleaner definition of what youre talking about:
[h=2]Definition of PANTHEISM[/h]1
: a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe
2
:[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] the worship of all gods of different creeds, cults, or peoples indifferently; [/FONT]also[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]:[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] toleration of worship of all gods (as at certain periods of the Roman empire)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These are things I do not believe, I do not believe that life or the universe requires a creator. You are obfuscating my views.
[/FONT]
actually you know what I typed out a shitload of this stuff and added links, but I am just going to leave you with this video instead.
[video=youtube;zWSQ8nKU3Yw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSQ8nKU3Yw&feature=relmfu[/video]