Complete antithesis of an INFJ | INFJ Forum

Complete antithesis of an INFJ

Discussion in 'The INFJ Typology' started by shannishannon, Sep 18, 2009.

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  1. shannishannon

    shannishannon Saponifier
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    This may have been addressed before here, and if it has, please redirect me!

    I think I may be working with someone who I may never work with comfortably.

    I suspect she is ESTJ. Strongly. Reminds me of Martha Stewart.

    Any tips on how to get along with this type? Avoidance better?
     
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  2. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    Oyyy...I think a former boss of mine was a very loud ESTJ. I never felt comfortable around her, and I never did the "right" thing (and her "right" thing and my "right" thing were always at odds with each other).

    I wouldn't say placated her, but ESTJs do like direct, no-nonsense ways of communication. They don't understand it when we hold back and think. It's too slow for them and they think we're wishy-washy (that we can't make decisions).

    I think it depends on the ESTJ, though. If you can get her to understand that this is what you need, and don't pull any punches, then you might get somewhere.

    Unfortunately, when *we* take the no-nonsense approach, we'll suddenly get, "Why are you soooo cruel!" Which can backfire.

    Every time I've played tough and refused to pull my punches/back down, I've been called "too harsh." :m080:
     
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  3. OP
    shannishannon

    shannishannon Saponifier
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    Yup. This is what happens! And now she has changed the entire unit's schedule so she doesn't has to work with me!
     
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  4. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    Another problem with having SJ bosses is the fact that Si commonly has this idea that you do whatever you're told. My grandfather is ESTJ and I've told him how I've told bosses "no" before and it basically makes him think I'm immoral, not to mention stupid. When your boss has this expectation of everyone around him it's extremely difficult and demoralizing for everyone that doesn't hold the same belief.

    On the Holland work types scale, ESTJs are almost universally "realistic," and likely to be "conventional" and/or "enterprising." Realistic type workers just want to "get the job done" and are the least likely to be social or engage in any sort of reasoning/intellectual consideration. They are people of action and that is what your ESTJ boss is likely expecting of you: take action, don't consider things too much (don't consider them at all really...).

    Honestly, there is little you can do to resolve it. An ESTJ that has not done much personal development (which most people haven't, that's not limited to ESTJs or SJs) is nearly impossible to convince out of their narrow-minded view of how things should be and it's almost impossible to get them to understand another person when there is any nuance involved. In fact, nuance is the very thing ESTJs just can't/refuse to understand (realistic work type remember...don't care about details or people, just get the job done).

    I also suspect they are the type that feelers think of when thinking of the bad qualities of thinkers: harsh, demanding, and unsensitive.

    Personally, I can't tolerate the majority of ESTJs for long, even less then I can ISTJs or ESFJs, and I avoid them whenever possible. So, I guess all I have to offer is a bit of sympathy and little in the way of advice.
     
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  5. Lucifer

    Lucifer Registered User #666

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    I think that the ESTJ is the complete antithesis of every type.
     
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  6. Lucifer

    Lucifer Registered User #666

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    Except other sjs of course.
     
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  7. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    Lol! Ain't that the way...?
     
  8. IndigoSensor

    IndigoSensor Product Obtained
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    My father is an ESTJ, and he is exactly as everyone has described. I remember talking to him last year about his job. He was trying to tell me that at work (I was working at the utillites athority that summer, which is part of the same government place my dad works at, just in a different town) that "if someone tells you to do something, you don't ask questions, and you don't complain, you just do it. You are NOT going to question things, and you are not going to make me look bad", of course I rolled my eyes and tried to tell him that that is not who I am. I ask questions, and do things my own way (within reason of course, I'm not that much of a rebel :tongue1:). If I don't want to do something because it is superfluous, but I ask why and I am given a valid reason, I will do it fine, because I see a purpose to it. He then proceeded to tell me that you can't do that because it looks bad, and someone in a "bottom of the barrell" posistion wouldn't dare do something like that. He said that he once and a while mentors interns, and he would fire someone or give them tedious meaningless work if they did what I did. He wants them to do it exactly how he wants and doesn't care if there is another way they want to do it. I so badly wanted to tell him "well, I sure as hell would not work for you, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would. I'd likely file a complaint.", but I didn't as he would just get mad. Just avoid bad ESTJ's as much as possible, there stubborn as ever and refuse to bend anything. It isn't worth the energy.
     
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    #8 IndigoSensor, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
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  9. Gaze

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    ESTJs are more concerned with hierarchy. When I've had to deal with similar types, early on I would question and challenge it, but that didn't work too well. I had to learn to strike a balance, pick my battles, and not take their approach personally. It's just who they are. Find common goals and see the relationship with them as moving toward that goal.
     
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  10. Puck

    Puck Perilous Pixie
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    As an INFJ, you're actually in control of everything. ESTJ bosses hate that. They can't fight your power, because they don't know what it is or how you do it. If she has a good heart, you can use your power to bring peace and harmony to the workplace. If on the other hand she's a mean spirited bitch, then perhaps finding a new job would be the kindest thing.
     
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  11. Johnson1

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    Like Martha Stewart?

    Like Martha Stewart? Run!

    :m146:
     
  12. Blind Bandit

    Blind Bandit Blind Man Being Lead to Nowhere
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    I've begun to notice. Extroverted SJs don't seek personal development its forced on them by life. Often it doesn't seem to positive. I've noticed if your an introvert or and intuitive or both you are required to develop yourself so you can cope properly.

    I'll be honest I have a real hard time with Extroverted SJs they often see me as problem that needs to be fixed.

    I have to agree with others find a new job.

    I don't understand what having all the power means? SJs hold the material power. Do you mean mental power and will power?

    Its possible but I also know some problematic NTs that cause that divide not just STJ or STP's
     
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    #12 Blind Bandit, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  13. midnightmelody

    midnightmelody nagging for truth

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    My mother is istj.
    It's pretty much the same. She "barks"

    Everything must be done "now".
    When there are a few things on the floor my room is a "disaster".

    Basically estjs like blind submission, which is just difficult and frustrating for infjs.
     
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  14. Blind Bandit

    Blind Bandit Blind Man Being Lead to Nowhere
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    I've similar issues with ESFJs
     
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  15. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    What divide are you talking about specifically? I mentioned a lot of things in my post.
     
  16. VH

    VH Variable Hybrid

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    To get technical, this is an issue of the cognitive functions that make up each type.

    INFJs are Ni, Fe, Ti, and Se.
    ESTJs are Te, Si, Ne, and Fi.

    We start with introverted iNtuition, a function they don't have at all, which is also a P function - which is the opposite of their secondary P function.
    They start with extroverted Thinking, a function we don't have, but also a Thinking J function - which is the opposite of our secondary J function.

    Our secondary function is extroverted Feeling, a function that they don't have at all, but is greatly antagonized by their dominant function - Te.
    Their secondary function is introverted Sensing, a function that we don't have at all, but is greatly antagonized by our dominant function - Ni.

    In essence, what is going on here is a complete mis-mesh. We not only have none of the same cognitive functions, but our functions are counter to one another, made even more antagonistic by the fact that we are always on P when they are on J, and J when they are on P. The exacerbate the issue, this pattern continues into our tertiary and inferior functions.

    Relationships of any kind are going to be strenuous between INFJs and ESTJs, and are going to take a lot of effort on both parts. However, in a work situation, it is going to be next to impossible to get an ESTJ to accomodate if they are in authority (which they often are, due to authority being one of their primary motivations in life). ISTJ relations are going to be similarly strained due to opposing functions, but generally not quite as mis-meshed because INFJs and ISTJs stay on the same J and P proression. However, there can become a really clear 'you're doing it wrong' opposition in the relationship.

    To make matters more difficult for INFJs, it is estimated that between 25% to 30% of the population are ISTJ or ESTJ. We have at minimum a 1 in 4 chance that our boss will be an STJ of some sort.

    If you add in ISFJ, ESFJ, that's another 20% to 25% of the population - meaning roughly half of the population are SJs of some sort. Civiliation and society as we know it has been designed by and for SJs. This unfortunately gives our ESTJs the sense that they have the right to know how things should be. The world is pretty much designed to cater to the way their minds work. The inverse is also pretty much true. The world is designed to not cater to how our minds work.

    My advice to you is to figure out how to make this situation work to your advantage, whether that be finding a new job or a transfer at your place of work and hoping you get a boss that isn't an SJ, finding a way to fake it for your boss to make them happy while you are there, or some other way to take control of your own destiny like going into business for yourself or changing career fields into something that will more likely allow you the autonomy to do things the INFJ way - which are often fields where we want to work, like psychology, counseling, ministry, etc.

    Whatever you do, just remember that our way is the best way because it is our way, but it's the rarest of the ways, and the world is full of people who have other ways. We have the unique ability to tailor our way to accomodate them all without compromising our own.
     
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  17. fatkattykat

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    Ouch, I worked for a woman who fit the classic ESTJ description. All I can say is that I really feel for you...hang in there... *hugs*

    I worked for one for over 2 years, and she was so awful that she was eventually fired.
     
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  18. Johnson1

    Johnson1 Newbie

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    No reference

    I don't know. My wife is an ENFJ and isn't anything like that. I guess the S change is a big indicator of different personalities. She's very forward thinking and always improving herself on her own, so not like the group you asked about.
     
  19. Blind Bandit

    Blind Bandit Blind Man Being Lead to Nowhere
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    Its more about the cognitive process invoked. The letter only tell part of the story.

    Von I feel like you should be our spokes person.

    I wish others say us the way we did. Maybe then we wouldn't be explaining everything we do and everything we are.
     
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    #19 Blind Bandit, Sep 19, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
  20. Soulful

    Soulful life is good

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    That sounds awful, Shannon. Wow to ESTJness. And even after reading the description, and shuddering, part of me still does not understand this concept of believing in not questioning, it's a bit foreign.
    I'm beginning to wonder if I've ever come across this type/people in life, or maybe just ignored it/been able to ignore it.
     
    #20 Soulful, Sep 19, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
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