Are some religions just memetic control mechanisms? | Page 8 | INFJ Forum

Are some religions just memetic control mechanisms?

If religion is a meme then the only people who could truly understand this are the apostates, those people who once experienced religion but were able to break free from its control and to recognize it as a meme.
I don't think that's necessarily true, as that would have to be based on thinking that being a part of a religion would inherently cloud your judgment of if it's a meme. Having experiential understanding should ideally have no effect on that. I realise that it does happen, but I don't think it happens in all cases.

I think what's happening here is assuming a religion that's a meme would naturally be 'bad.' If you are comparing the nature of a religious meme to that of a virus (though I think the 'control'/acceptance aspect of religion is quite often blown out of proportion with reality, and obviously such a comparison is not 1:1), it would not be inherently detrimental, as viruses can be used to propogate good genes as well.
 
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BenW, do you even have any scientific knowledge? You talk about science, but you don't back it up with theories or proven fact.
What theories are applicable to disproving the existence of God?

I'm definitely not a scholar, but I read about evolutionary biology a bit in my spare time, and I know some algebra based physics.
Don't really see what difference that makes.

By the way, the "supernatural" are only things that we can't see or prove yet. It doesn't mean they don't have a basis in the physical world. There was once a time where we couldn't observe gamma rays in space... then we developed the technology to do so. Were they there when we couldn't see them? Of course they were.
I don't see the comparison to God.

I don't know much about it, but I'd imagine gamma rays were first theorized because somebody simply extrapolated further out on the EMS, and decided that in theory, there could be a wavelength that long.
However, I'm sure no scientists had "faith" in their existence until we first observed them.

An open mind is important here. Everyone laughed when Columbus claimed the Earth was round...

In keeping true to the scientific tradition, you would have to prove that that your alternate hypothesis is true. You have not done that. Just stating that "religious people don't have proof" doesn't prove your point of view either...
Huh?
All that is needed to disprove a hypothesis is an observation that it cannot explain, proving that it's not a complete model.
I'm pretty sure alternative hypotheses are a statistics thing (I remember doing those p value tests in AP stats).

...meaning none of us have the answers. If you do, maybe you'll win the Nobel Prize and save us all.
I certainly don't have all the answers (or any of them, really), but I think I have a grasp on the framework used to find them.
 
If you don't know much about science then how do you have the credentials to disprove religion? Your whole argument is centered on the argument of science. Knowing some algebra based physics does not give you that background. Study some college level calculus based science and really hit on some theory, then let's see what happens. Your world will be blown wide open.

You have said that it's "cute when pro-religion people try to play scientist." Aren't you trying to do the same thing?

Oh, and P-values compare observed data and scientific data. Math and science are intertwined. Scientists back up their research and theories with mathematics. Even biologists.

Scientists have had all sorts of "inklings" and "premonitions" that led them to new discoveries. Not all scientists have been really close to a breakthrough before believing it could be possible. Some breakthroughs have been accidents.

You still have extreme black and white thinking that most religious people have... that God and science must be totally separate. I think a paradigm shift is in order. Maybe it's the way you see "God" or assume that others see "God."
 
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If you don't know much about science then how do you have the credentials to disprove religion? Your whole argument is centered on the argument of science. Knowing some algebra based physics does not give you that background. Study some college level calculus based science and really hit on some theory, then let's see what happens. Your world will be blown wide open.
Like I said, I feel that know a good deal about the framework and methodology. What difference would learning specifics theories make?
Which theories?
Quantum mechanics?
Special relativity?

You have said that it's "cute when pro-religion people try to play scientist." Aren't you trying to do the same thing?
It was a quote from a mostly unrelated discussion to this thread.
And no, I don't think I am.

I've never claimed to know much about science, in the sense of the actual specific theories and hypotheses. I don't.
Again, this isn't necessary knowledge to understand the methodology itself.
It's extremely simple.

Oh, and P-values compare observed data and scientific data. Math and science are intertwined. Scientists back up their research and theories with mathematics. Even biologists.
Indeed. Never argued against this.

The issue was around what is necessary to disprove a hypothesis.
An alternative hypothesis is NOT needed for any other given hypothesis to be proven wrong, just a demonstration that it doesn't completely explain the evidence at hand.
To quote Einstein...
"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong."

Scientists have had all sorts of "inklings" and "premonitions" that led them to new discoveries. Not all scientists have been really close to a breakthrough before believing it could be possible. Some breakthroughs have been accidents.

You still have extreme black and white thinking that most religious people have... that God and science must be totally separate. I think a paradigm shift is in order. Maybe it's the way you see "God" or assume that others see "God."
I'd say that the majority of the religious people I've talked to certain don't see God and science as totally seperate.
Certainly NOT creationists.
 
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Science and religion can go hand and hand, and is only a problem given the direction.

Science being used to explain religion is fine (I do this myself). Reason being is you are using known and proven things to explain and reason the unknown. Mind you this is more or less a personal internal thing, and is different from person to person.

Religion being used to explain science is not fine. Reason being is because you are trying to reword something that is known and proven, using something that is not.
 
You have not given any experiment that disproves religion!

Yes, knowing particulars in science does help in understanding this topic. You don't even know a sliver of what makes the world function and what we might discover just in the next few years alone. You have not seen what some advance theories have implied! The scientific method does not give the framework to say something exists or doesn't.

I guess everyone who knows the scientific method can claim that something is false and that makes it so. It seems that you are extremely desperate to say all religious people are hacks (or in your words, deluded). I don't know what caused this, and I really don't care. You keep saying the same things over and over this is truly going in circles.

It could just as well be assumed that you are wrong. There is no proof that "God" doesn't exist!

As I stated a couple of days ago, you need to have a heart to heart with more people from different religions. Most people do NOT think that God and science is separate. Keep in mind there are other cultures other than American.

Your arguments are based on an extremely narrow world view. I would venture to guess that most of your arguments are based on personal experience and NOT by any knowledge.

I don't think anyone here wants you to accept religion or change your mind. I think we are trying to open your mind.
 
You have not given any experiment that disproves religion!
The burden of proof isn't on me to prove that he exists.
It hasn't been demonstrated that he has.

Yes, knowing particulars in science does help in understanding this topic. You don't even know a sliver of what makes the world function and what we might discover just in the next few years alone. You have not seen what some advance theories have implied! The scientific method does not give the framework to say something exists or doesn't.
It gives me the ability to define a hypothesis as false, which is all was needed, here.

I guess everyone who knows the scientific method can claim that something is false and that makes it so.
A claim alone doesn't do anything. If a theory lacks sufficient evidence, then it already is false, regardless of me or anyone else claiming it to be.
The hypothesis in question, being that God exists, or in proper hypothesis form, that God is responsible for X.

It seems that you are extremely desperate to say all religious people are hacks (or in your words, deluded). I don't know what caused this, and I really don't care. You keep saying the same things over and over this is truly going in circles.
I seem to be continually misunderstood and ignored, frankly.

It could just as well be assumed that you are wrong. There is no proof that "God" doesn't exist!
I have gone over this specific point several times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof#Science_and_other_uses
"Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, either positive or negative, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven (see negative proof)."

Also of interest in the article mentioned in parenthesis...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof#Science
"It is a logical mistake to assert that because a phenomenon is unpredictable by current scientific theories, that a better scientific theory cannot be found that provides an adequate natural explanatory model for the phenomena in question; and that therefore, one must assert that the only viable explanation of the unexplained phenomena is the supernatural action of God."

I don't doubt that you clearly know a good deal about math and chemistry.
However, it is obvious and puzzling to me that you apparently don't know very much about scientific methodology. Especially when you find it necessary to flash around college credentials, and tell me to hit the books.

As I stated a couple of days ago, you need to have a heart to heart with more people from different religions. Most people do NOT think that God and science is separate. Keep in mind there are other cultures other than American.
Uh...
You said:
You still have extreme black and white thinking that most religious people have... that God and science must be totally separate.
Do most people think god and science are separate, or not?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just confused.

Your arguments are based on an extremely narrow world view. I would venture to guess that most of your arguments are based on personal experience and NOT by any knowledge.

I don't think anyone here wants you to accept religion or change your mind. I think we are trying to open your mind.
My mind is quite open as it is.
The moment any evidence comes along, I'm willing to readjust my beliefs, much like a scientific theory must be reformulated in order to deal with the same.
 
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The burden of proof isn't on me to prove that he exists.
It hasn't been demonstrated that he has.

It gives me the ability to define a hypothesis as false, which is all was needed, here.

It does not give you the ability to define someone's hypothesis as false. It only means it hasn't been proven.

To quote Einstein...
"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong."

This means you would have to come up with an experiment that disproves religion in order to state that it is totally and utterly false. Until then, it is still a hypothesis open for testing. It means we haven't found a clear answer yet. It does not mean that we throw away the idea.

A claim alone doesn't do anything. If a theory lacks sufficient evidence, then it already is false, regardless of me or anyone else claiming it to be.
The hypothesis in question, being that God exists, or in proper hypothesis form, that God is responsible for X.

Wrong again, there are thousands of open hypotheses that have yet to be proven, but it doesn't make them false either. Rather we just don't know yet because we haven't seen evidence. The same goes for your hypothesis that religion is delusion. We ARE talking about hypothesis by the way, something only becomes theory where there is a large amount of experimentation already done. So maybe I do know something about scientific methodology.

I have gone over this specific point several times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof#Science_and_other_uses
"Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, either positive or negative, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven (see negative proof)."

Once again, you have your own burden of proof if you want to label billions of people as delusional. Once again, a very serious accusation. I don't think anyone here has any burden of proof, at least not me. I am not claiming that religion is the right answer. I am stating that it's open for further exploration.

I don't doubt that you clearly know a good deal about math and chemistry.
However, it is obvious and puzzling to me that you apparently don't know very much about scientific methodology. Especially when you find it necessary to flash around college credentials, and tell me to hit the books.

According to you, we should throw out any hypotheses for which we do not have any concrete evidence. I think that does not bode well with scientific methodology...

Wikipedia: THE source for the armchair scientist. It's so accurate, most professors don't allow their students to use it as a source.
 
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So to summarize, BenW thinks all faith is delusional as it is believing something that can't be proved. That may be a dictionary definition of the word, but if BenW believes his five senses then he's delusional too. Most people have faith in their senses, even though everyone knows they can be wrong. It simply cannot be proven that the senses are correct. Therefore, it is highly likely that every single human is delusional for believing in their five senses.

BenW, FYI many people who believe in a spirituality don't necessarily see it as "supernatural" or at odds with the natural. I myself see it as an abritrary division we've introduced into the universe. This line of division gradually moves as the scope of science grows. But it doesn't change the operation of the universe itself. The only thing it changes is what the silly humans are arguing about. Again, this paragraph is my opinion, but it's something to consider when forming your arguments.
 
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Anyone that believes in anything is delusional.

In other words, the entire world is delusional.

Or, maybe it's okay to believe in something here and there. I personally see nothing wrong with belief. It's pushing beliefs onto others that's the problem. Religious people do this; non-religious people do this. If you don't choose to believe, that's fine, but don't feel pressured to "enlighten" those that do.
 
It does not give you the ability to define someone's hypothesis as false. It only means it hasn't been proven.
In science, these things are one in the same. Scientific theories are either true or false, there is no middle ground. If they are not provably true, they treated as false.

This means you would have to come up with an experiment that disproves religion in order to state that it is totally and utterly false. Until then, it is still a hypothesis open for testing. It means we haven't found a clear answer yet. It does not mean that we throw away the idea.
Of course it does.
There are, literally, an infinite amount of hypothesis one could construct which don't have any evidence in favor or against them.
They are useless, and treated as "false", until evidence comes along that makes it necessary to reconsider.

Wrong again, there are thousands of open hypotheses that have yet to be proven, but it doesn't make them false either. Rather we just don't know yet because we haven't seen evidence.
In the strictest sense of the word, theories are never truly "proven" to be false OR true, for that matter.
With evidence for it and lacking any evidence against it, they are generally accepted as being true.
But should contrary evidence ever arise, they are still open to falsifiability.

The same goes for your hypothesis that religion is delusion. We ARE talking about hypothesis by the way, something only becomes theory where there is a large amount of experimentation already done. So maybe I do know something about scientific methodology.
My statement that faith is delusional was not a hypothesis...
And hypothesis are part of theories, they don't become theories upon being generally accepted as true..
(P.H.E.O.C.)

And frankly, for somebody who claims to know something about it, the claim that a hypothesis is only falsifiable in the face of another hypothesis being accepted as true is so wrong that it's just absurd and laughable.
You're just making things up as you go.

Once again, you have your own burden of proof if you want to label billions of people as delusional. Once again, a very serious accusation. I don't think anyone here has any burden of proof, at least not me. I am not claiming that religion is the right answer. I am stating that it's open for further exploration.
What burden of proof would that be?
I stated a precise cause and effect reliationship.
Faith defies logic, therefore is delusional.
Nothing hypothetical about that.

According to you, we should throw out any hypotheses for which we do not have any concrete evidence. I think that does not bode well with scientific methodology...
Well, you're incorrect, then.
If you disagree, provide me with evidence to the contrary.

Wikipedia: THE source for the armchair scientist. It's so accurate, most professors don't allow their students to use it as a source.
Wikipedia is itself a collection of sources. And a convenient one at that.
Pretty pathetic that you need to fall back on that to defend your own argument, though.

If you're going to keep rehashing the same stuff I've gone over, I don't really want to continue this. I've given example as to where my understanding of the scientific method comes from, while you've sidestepped, misinterpreted them, or artfully ignored them.
 
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Wikipedia is itself a collection of sources. And a convenient one at that.
Pretty pathetic that you need to fall back on that to defend your own argument, though.

Actually, if you used wikipedia as a source when arguing with me, I'd probably cringe in my seat.
 
The Wikipedia content I quoted was a direct quote from Karl Popper.
The seconds quote, apparently came from..
Michael Shermer (2003) How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God, p 115 ff.
And.
Robert Larmer, "Is there anything wrong with 'God of the gaps' reasoning?" International Journal for Philosophy of Religion, Volume 52, Number 3 / December, 2002, p 129 ff.
 
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facepalm.jpg
 
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You are saying that if something is false it is utter nonsense and absolutely 100% not true. That is not what's meant when we say we cannot support a hypothesis. A lot of experiments end up "on the shelf" for a long time, but many times someone else comes along and gives it another try. Of course there are tons of ideas that have been left alone. Sometimes we just don't know how to approach something. Sometimes we DO have enough evidence to completely scratch out a hypothesis or theory. Sometimes, though rarely, theories have been completely debunked!

Most of your arguments have been along the lines of "That's not what I meant. I know the scientific method!"

Hypotheses are NOT part of theories. They are part of the PATH that can lead to theories. There is a difference. Many hypotheses never lead to theories. Your statement that faith is delusional is absolutely a hypothesis until you can gather sufficient evidence to support it. A lot of peoples faith has sound reasoning. Your claim is completely hypothetical.

Claiming that billions upon billions of people are delusional is so completely far fetched. That definitely needs some evidence.

The "It's not me, it's everyone else" way of thinking is a sign of delusion.

You just contradicted yourself and agreed with me when you typed:
"In the strictest sense of the word, theories are never truly "proven" to be false OR true, for that matter. With evidence for it and lacking any evidence against it, they are generally accepted as being true. But should contrary evidence ever arise, they are still open to falsifiability."

That's why I said; it is not a completely shut case.

Who is making up things as they go along?

The fact that legitimate institutions do not accept Wikipedia as an acceptable reference speaks volumes. It's bad news for the younger generation who look on it as the Lexicon of Infinite Knowledge. There is nothing wrong with that argument and I still stand by it.

Now you are saying that I've sidestepped, yadda yadda yadda? Pretty pathetic if you have to fall back on that to defend your argument.
 
So the more interesting question to me is the real source of these memes... I mean, the horrifying/fascinating idea to me is that it's not just something so easily objectified, that it's something that actually exploits the actual way that our minds function and the way that they are hardwired, and that these "memes" are sloppy business to actualy trace to a source or really draw lines around. So to illustrate what I'm getting at, it's like how our very language is actually influencing us directly and our culture directly, and it becomes quite a mind rend to discern any of it with any kind of precision...

So, it seems like many of us are in agreement that memes do have utility, but then some of us are definately skeptics to the point that we know it's something to dissent from for the most clarity and the healthiest vantage point. I would argue that there is no one source that sort of implanted this into us, and that they have evolved to sort of compliment some of the impulses our brain has hardwired for reasoning. I mean really, our brains seems to function in part by irrational "faith", and having unfounded hope or faith has utility. I catch myself thinking in ways that sometimes feel like an impulse that I then focus-in on to find that I was sort of extending out this feeling of control and reason to places where logically there was neither, just as a mechanism for going along with my life.

Here's my idea: I suspect that religion and faith are merely forms that we have historically given our evolving memes, memes being functions of our brain that we have assigned form to arbitrarily, and that is to say, some sloppy mental leap that our brains make to expedite the speed and utility of the way we live... I think it's healthy to be a skeptic of the very way our brain works personally, and that goes double for form given to our memes, imposed on us by the all-too-often compulsory religion!
 
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also Ni v. Ti.

Ti as a general rule distrusts Ni.
 
Oh, about the arguing around science vs. faith and the "scientific method". A couple of things. The scientific method is really just a way to offer up data that supports or denies a hypothesis for further replication and scrutiny, and, basically, equipping others to basically slash apart your data and generate their own hypotheses or help you to modify your own in a search for better understanding. So the other thing is that to generate a hypothesis, you almost have to enter this zone in your brain that has "faith" in your educated guess about why something might be, and some people get too invested in their idea and make it impossibe to refute.

The idea is, is you can't make your idea, your hypothesis, impossible to refute or nobody is going going to make progress toward a better understanding. So it would seem that religion offends the scientific method grossly, but admittedly, the process of generating hyptheses does seem to make faith-like leaps of intuition, but of course, it then has to be held up to intense scrutiny to see if there was any fruitfulness in the hypothesis so then it can either be scrapped completely or modified. I think that religion seemingly has utility as a meme in that it exploits and expedites some sloppy leaps that our brain makes impulsively due to it's limitations or the way it functions, and then needs to give form to reasonably function. Now refer to the ideas I presented a few posts up.
 
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