A question on Gay Rights
- Thread starter NaeturVindur
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Slant, do you really believe the Mormon doctrines that you hear, or are you playing devil's advocate?
"Even if gay people are biologically inclined to being gay it doesn't mean they have to act on it. Some people are born with tendencies that are more violent than others, but does that give them the right to act out on it? "
Your arguement is flawed. I could just as easily say "If pacifist people are biologically inclined to being pacifist it doesn't mean they have to take an asswhooping." And it would be as true.... As a chiristian I've come to love the sinner and hate the sins (as I hope anyone would me), I dont have to condone homosexual acts, but the Jesus I've come to "know" loves all heterosexuals, homosexuals, transexuals, those who can label themselves and those who cant by the mere fact that they are created by our (my) Lord.
To deny gods creation free will or compassion is counterintuitive to me.
Gay people are people, they are born the same as you or I - loved as conditionally or unconditionally by their parents as you or I, and better or worse than anyone else in different ways as you are from me.
So in conclusion, I'm drunk, have said my piece and you're obstinate (or playing devil's advocate) lol.
Your arguement is flawed. I could just as easily say "If pacifist people are biologically inclined to being pacifist it doesn't mean they have to take an asswhooping." And it would be as true.... As a chiristian I've come to love the sinner and hate the sins (as I hope anyone would me), I dont have to condone homosexual acts, but the Jesus I've come to "know" loves all heterosexuals, homosexuals, transexuals, those who can label themselves and those who cant by the mere fact that they are created by our (my) Lord.
To deny gods creation free will or compassion is counterintuitive to me.
Gay people are people, they are born the same as you or I - loved as conditionally or unconditionally by their parents as you or I, and better or worse than anyone else in different ways as you are from me.
So in conclusion, I'm drunk, have said my piece and you're obstinate (or playing devil's advocate) lol.
Well, the question was,
"What are the reasons for feeling that GLBTQ people (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transsexual, Questioning) do not deserve the same rights/privileges/respect as their heterosexual counterparts?"
And although I don't believe in all that hogo bogo, it's what's out here and I just thought I'd share. So no, I don't follow it persay but it is one of the reasons I've heard for being against gay rights. There were some interesting points on the opposite end in defending gay rights, and I'd been interested to know what would happen in the situation that an actual true-to-the-bible Mormon came in here and started preaching their jargon. They would be whipped. XD
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so, devils advicate (you had me fooled)
That is exactly what I'm hoping and praying for (and I'm also hoping that we don't so harshly whip them [Satya], to the point that they run away, and I can't get my full answer)
- Nov 12, 2008
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NOOO!!! There will be NO choking of homophobes (or anyone else) here!!! This is a welcoming environment to people of such opinions. We want to understand them, so we can better defend ourselves. do you see my logic?oh goodI was ready to choke a bitch! :mad2:
"The attack on the natural family that is the most difficult
to address (primarily because any reasoned discourse is
almost immediately dismissed as “phobic” or “insensitive”)
is the modern assertion that there is nothing unique about the
relationship between a man and a woman; instead, that there
are “various forms of the family.” On one level such language
is absolutely correct. The family has always included singleparent
households, households involving stepchildren, and
those embracing aunts, uncles, grandparents, and other
inter-generational relationships. But the modern assertion is
much more expansive: it is nothing less than the claim that
the very concept of “family” has nothing to do with childbearing
or procreation. So understood, any two men or any
two women–or any group at all–can claim equal status as
a “family.” Such a claim can succeed, however, only if the
international community is willing to completely separate
society’s vital interest in reproduction–that is, in the bearing
to address (primarily because any reasoned discourse is
almost immediately dismissed as “phobic” or “insensitive”)
is the modern assertion that there is nothing unique about the
relationship between a man and a woman; instead, that there
are “various forms of the family.” On one level such language
is absolutely correct. The family has always included singleparent
households, households involving stepchildren, and
those embracing aunts, uncles, grandparents, and other
inter-generational relationships. But the modern assertion is
much more expansive: it is nothing less than the claim that
the very concept of “family” has nothing to do with childbearing
or procreation. So understood, any two men or any
two women–or any group at all–can claim equal status as
a “family.” Such a claim can succeed, however, only if the
international community is willing to completely separate
society’s vital interest in reproduction–that is, in the bearing
and rearing of children
–from the concept of family.
This severance of reproduction from the concept of family is
fraught with profound difficulties"
This was taken from a Mormon journal that is produced in Brigham Young University. It is fairly old [ 2002], but if you want to read more about the mormonism beliefs and why they are against gay marriage shift your way through the following website; they have every article online, it's very useful. This is the link of the article I have taken the following information from: http://www.worldfamilypolicy.org/New Page/forum/2002/wilkins.pdf
The actual website is here http://www.law2.byu.edu/wfpc/about.htm and if you click policy forum you can browse through the articles from various years. This is not exclusively about gay rights, but there is a lot of juicy information there.
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oh good
Yuppers and no calling others bitch even in jest or a general way please. I understand your feelings Indigo, I have no tolerance for homophobic attitudes either but like Vindus says when they’re being polite in their approach trying to understand their argument to better defend your position if so inclined is wise, and when they’re not I have no problem pulling out a ban-from-thread-hamma
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Yuppers and no calling others bitch even in jest or a general way please. I understand your feelings Indigo, I have no tolerance for homophobic attitudes either but like Vindus says when they’re being polite in their approach trying to understand their argument to better defend your position if so inclined is wise, and when they’re not I have no problem pulling out a banhamma
I was joking :tongue1:
Did not mean to sound harsh.
I once had two Mormon missionaries come to my door. The discussion I had with them was great. I told them I was on a mission from God to obtain gay marriage and to enoble the gay community. Their immediate reaction was to insinuate that the devil was influencing me and tell me about their gay friend who found God.
S
Shai Gar
Unlike many other religions, the mormons' focus is on helping gays turn straight rather than completely snubbing them. They have developed unique programs to help people in this quest, particularly gay men. Evergreen is one of the most popular programs. You are sent there, and immediantly come back 'straight'. They hook up clamps to a man's genitials and will show a slideshow of images: a woman, a flower, a tree, a picture of gay porn, and when the picture of gay porn comes up they will send volts of electricity through those clamps. They think it will re-condition the brain. It does not.
Many mormon men come out of these programs striaght, and marry women to have children. The truth of the matter is though that they are not straight, and it is not uncommon from them to have sexual affairs with other men who have supposedly 'recovered' at evergreen.
http://www.evergreeninternational.org/
That is a link to find out more about the 'miracle program' evergreen.
Many mormon men come out of these programs striaght, and marry women to have children. The truth of the matter is though that they are not straight, and it is not uncommon from them to have sexual affairs with other men who have supposedly 'recovered' at evergreen.
http://www.evergreeninternational.org/
That is a link to find out more about the 'miracle program' evergreen.
I don't know that much about mormons exept that when they marry they are married in eternity, (not till death due them apart but for eternity) which I think is absolutely fantastic because true love is such a powerful bond. No other religion has that so to say. However the man in the relasionship is aloud to have as many wifes as he wants, THAT itself is a disgrace to the former. It is even contradictory to the notion true love.
Nevertheless my belief take on completely different form, we have no tangible proof that shows us the 'gay'-gene nor is there a veriety when saying that there is a god or is not, because an entity as such cannot be proven nor disproven.
haha and programs for turning gay people straight, wow as I'm not a mormon, it sounds horrible, talk about deprivation if you go to one. Dissregarding their lifestyle, to treat homosexuality like it is a mutation is like putting us NF's into programmes for feeling the way we do.
Nevertheless my belief take on completely different form, we have no tangible proof that shows us the 'gay'-gene nor is there a veriety when saying that there is a god or is not, because an entity as such cannot be proven nor disproven.
haha and programs for turning gay people straight, wow as I'm not a mormon, it sounds horrible, talk about deprivation if you go to one. Dissregarding their lifestyle, to treat homosexuality like it is a mutation is like putting us NF's into programmes for feeling the way we do.
Polygamy is not legal in Utah. It still happens, but they hush it. And I don't see anything wrong with polygamy as long as all parties are willing. Also, the thing about mormons is that they believe in different types of heaven.
1. Celestial Kingdom [ highest of all]
2. Terrestrial Kingdom
3.Telestial Kingdom [ lowest of all]
In order to get into the highest, you must get married in the temple. Which, if you are gay, you can't get married.
The Terrestrial Kingdom is for those who have accepted the teachings [ like getting 'cured' being gay] but have not been married.
The least is where the rest go, and they are servants of god and Jesus there.
If you get to the Celestial Kingdom, men are believed to get their own planets and populate it with women. Women do not own their own planet; it is the men, always the men.
At youth groups the girls are taught how to sew, cook, etc. to prepare them for marriage. It is all about being married to get into the Celestial Kingdom and reproduce to continue the mormon line.
You had some of us confused for a while there.
That method actually would work to create an avoidance reaction to homosexuality, but I assume they are not keeping it up long enough to accomplish that. The gay people probably claim that they have "turned straight" long before they have really started feeling the permanent effects, just so they can stop having their genitals fried. If they did keep it up long enough, it would create very confused responses, since the sexual orientation would remain the same, while the reaction to gay porn (and perhaps most all visuals relating to homosexuality) would be negative.
Heh, this is an interesting argument.
I'm going to kind of break it down from what I understand:
Religion: God hates gays
The Bible, as translated from the original Hebrew, actually doesn't really mention homosexuality specifically. That's more of a loose interpretation: it could also mean "temple prostitutes" or other similar things, which would actually make more sense, since at the time where Christian and Pagan beliefs were merging (when the Bible was 'written'), temple prostitutes were fairly normal for Pagan religions.
Also, anyone who counts homosexuality as a unholy sin of the flesh also has to remember that sex before marriage and sex after divorce were both stressed even more as sins of the flesh. Sins are not "worse" because less people act upon them. We are all sinners in that regard; get off the high horse and look on your own actions, I say.
Gays might hit on me
A lot of people are afraid that a gay person might try to feel them up or something, which I think is pretty major BS. Just because a person is gay doesn't mean they will try to grope anyone of the same sex; they like certain people just like straight people have preferences. That's just plain ignorance, no excuse.
They're going to try to get married (screw up existing, traditional systems)
Well, that's all fine and dandy that you feel that way, but there are legal ways to get the same rights that don't involve Christian marriages. The thing about most politics anymore is that people have the RIGHT to equality; that doesn't mean just when we feel like it's "correct" or "normal." Gays have the right to equal political standing, even when it comes to legal partnerships, and if you don't want to give them the religious side...well, that's up to the religion. However, legally, we are not permitted to be so picky.
I'm going to kind of break it down from what I understand:
Religion: God hates gays
The Bible, as translated from the original Hebrew, actually doesn't really mention homosexuality specifically. That's more of a loose interpretation: it could also mean "temple prostitutes" or other similar things, which would actually make more sense, since at the time where Christian and Pagan beliefs were merging (when the Bible was 'written'), temple prostitutes were fairly normal for Pagan religions.
Also, anyone who counts homosexuality as a unholy sin of the flesh also has to remember that sex before marriage and sex after divorce were both stressed even more as sins of the flesh. Sins are not "worse" because less people act upon them. We are all sinners in that regard; get off the high horse and look on your own actions, I say.
Gays might hit on me
A lot of people are afraid that a gay person might try to feel them up or something, which I think is pretty major BS. Just because a person is gay doesn't mean they will try to grope anyone of the same sex; they like certain people just like straight people have preferences. That's just plain ignorance, no excuse.
They're going to try to get married (screw up existing, traditional systems)
Well, that's all fine and dandy that you feel that way, but there are legal ways to get the same rights that don't involve Christian marriages. The thing about most politics anymore is that people have the RIGHT to equality; that doesn't mean just when we feel like it's "correct" or "normal." Gays have the right to equal political standing, even when it comes to legal partnerships, and if you don't want to give them the religious side...well, that's up to the religion. However, legally, we are not permitted to be so picky.
S
Shai Gar
I don't mind gay's as long as they are not attacking my right to be a hetro.
I would say the same for christians and jews and just about anybody on earth. The problem is that is never the case and with any group you get group's putting other groups down because of their own belief's. That's the reason I goto the outdoors. I can be around the only sanity on earth. Nature..
I would say the same for christians and jews and just about anybody on earth. The problem is that is never the case and with any group you get group's putting other groups down because of their own belief's. That's the reason I goto the outdoors. I can be around the only sanity on earth. Nature..