Why ?

[sprinkles]

Not everyone knows what to do and it is agonizing to keep quiet just because you have no suggestions. Since you care so much how about you be the first to make suggestions instead of complaining about other people?

Saying "You should come up with something" is empty and doesn't mean shit. You're just as bad as they are, or even worse maybe.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

Come up with a solution imo, means that must you must take some responsibility, specially when it comes to taking action at some point. People don't want to be responsible for things that they genuinely don't know the solution of, or just can't bother with. I wouldn't be so hard on some of them.
Also, it's easy to come up with a solution ime, but would someone be able to make the leap between what they say and do and test it? Let alone the sole fact that we had a lot of "solutions" coming along, and they just didn't work the way many expected.
Real solutions come when people are compromised in most ways, that's when shit starts to happen, revolution starts when shit can't get any worse, when people don't have anything else to lose. If you have a broken leg in the middle of a forest, i'm pretty sure you'll make a move, i don't think that's even up to question. But today, at least in the social circles where i move, people have a whole lot to lose, and "take care" of aka their jobs, family stability, money, their car and so on aside from the big and real problems we are facing today, even big debts, it doesn't matter, they are NOT in the middle of the forest with a broken leg, metaphorically speaking.
My personal opinion differs wildly, and i'm pretty radical in that subject. But respect, most people deserve that, and also be a realist, i don't think there's much room for nice sounding words, and third rate poetry, even less for people who just want the easy way out, instead of taking their time and think twice (no pun intended to the op)

 

[sprinkles]

Come up with a solution imo, means that must you must take some responsibility, specially when it comes to taking action at some point. People don't want to be responsible for things that they genuinely don't know the solution of, or just can't bother with. I wouldn't be so hard on some of them.
Also, it's easy to come up with a solution ime, but would someone be able to make the leap between what they say and do and test it? Let alone the sole fact that we had a lot of "solutions" coming along, and they just didn't work the way many expected.
Real solutions come when people are compromised in most ways, that's when shit starts to happen, revolution starts when shit can't get any worse, when people don't have anything else to lose. If you have a broken leg in the middle of a forest, i'm pretty sure you'll make a move, i don't think that's even up to question. But today, at least in the social circles where i move, people have a whole lot to lose, and "take care" of aka their jobs, family stability, money, their car and so on aside from the big and real problems we are facing today, even big debts, it doesn't matter, they are NOT in the middle of the forest with a broken leg, metaphorically speaking.

It's not always easy. For example if someone can't pay off their loans, I wouldn't know the first thing to tell them because I know nothing about that. It'd be better for me to say nothing all than to give bad advice, or say something stupid like "try to make more money?"

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=10759]BrokenDaniel[/MENTION] actually you're right, it's easy to come up with something. As in anything at all regardless of how useful it is.

Coming up with something worthwhile, with valid reasoning and not just spontaneous bullshit, and something that could actually work and be practical and hasn't already been harped on for the past 50 years is another story.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

[MENTION=10759]BrokenDaniel[/MENTION] actually you're right, it's easy to come up with something. As in anything at all regardless of how useful it is.

Coming up with something worthwhile, with valid reasoning and not just spontaneous bullshit, and something that could actually work and be practical and hasn't already been harped on for the past 50 years is another story.

Yeah. Just taking a look at history (highschool history even since it's the only one i got) action started when the people where literally at a dead end situation. And even then, if the solutions were really worth it, it's also up to question, think about the whole bloodshed of the french revolution.

Edit: On second thoughts i also think people by and large, react towards these problems, instead of taking action in the first place which imo, makes a damn huge difference. It makes for a powerless/powerful based mindset within us. I don't like that.
However, i'm getting way too deep into this, and i have a ton of things in my head, also busy week, and i'm mildly high now...

 

[infinium]

I will try to answer this based on my personal experiences and observations. Probably hard to understand because of my english and its sort of the combinations of people's perspectives that I observed.

1. I was wondering why people tend to bring up issues for discussion but mostly avoid talking about possible solutions, work a rounds and ways to progress despite these issues?

- This depends on the severity of the "guilt" had on oneself, how big the disparity gap of moral values between one's ideals correspond to the reality, the greater the intensity of guilt and gap, the greater as well the motivation drives of implementing a solution to balances their chaotic inner world. If the guilt and disparity is not felt or allowed by their consciousness, they will be unlikely to come up with conclusion that is meaningless their inner self just for the sake of others.
To make things worse, Culturally, you are rewarded for your "effort" regardless of the outcome, people will tend to be reward-mongers to their surroundings since the rewards they earned are more appealing internally than attuned to reality with self-achievement feeling of solving an issue.

2. Are we as human beings really more interested in conflicts than ways to overcome them and what comes after?

- In my experience, people are more interested in avoiding conflicts, adding assumptions based on their own moral judgements to the things they perceived in a conflict, and mislabeling "conflicts" as the 'measures' of harmony. ( when you cant see conflict upfront, that means Peace is achieved)

3. What about us makes us so inclined to want to bitch about things but not come up with ways to progress despite them ?

- This is usually appear in the mind of people that have "to compare" settings. They would bitch about others who were in a nastier conflicts as compared to their own but evidently put LESS 'efforts' to scale this "picture". On the other hand, people with "to build" settings, will like to learned from others conflicts to for awareness of it and building ways of anticipations to one's life.

4. People always seem to imply how imperative it is that we do something about some issue, yet they when you ask them; "what should we do?", they will continue to enforce how important it is we do something about it. No suggestions for solutions, no ideas of what comes after. What makes us like that?

- Because there are those before use, human beings that were having issues with others, there are past examples, similar patterns issues, thus the end result is almost-absolute (make a small room for 'miracle') which will be directly slapped onto one's face by the hand of reality: as "consequences". The enforcements will act like highway road signs that show directions to all kinds of beautiful destinations, but as far the awareness is concerned, IF the people with the issue themselves are not 'being aware' that there are other options or solutions exist that doesnt lead to consequences, ANY (effort; actions; advices; insights; given by (others who isnt having said issue) in various forms, angles, perspective, and all) will be futile. The only road they thought they rejecting in their thoughts, turns out to be the only way exist in their 'reality' hence the "No suggestions for solutions, no ideas of what comes after" occur. Solutions only can be found inwardly, everyone's moral values measurements are unique and subjective one to another, no external factors can have the same exact precise compatible measurements to resolve the inner disparity of your own personal values.

5. Is it because it some kind of rare genetic trait in us that gives rise to the very few among st us who do think of such things that we have managed to progress as species as far as we did?

- I wouldnt reject nor agree wth the theory that I dont know about. Neutral take on it. Probably human survival instincts .

 

[muir]

alright then you said it yourself they don't believe. they will not act. you are alone in this.

No they are beginning to believe....but it has taken some amount of sharing info and also for real world events to kinda prove the validity of what i'm saying

Why are you not thinking of ways to survive this whilst you try to convince people?

I do and i have spoken extensively about these

But in terms of surviving long term the only way for people to do that is to stand together against this thing...there will be no hiding from it. It is a totalitarian movement...it wants total control over every aspect of everyones lives

That's what i don't think you are realising yet

adopting an 'everyman for himself' attitude is the road to failure on this. united we stand, divided we fall...it's that simple and people need to start realising that

Since when can we only do one thing ?

read my solutions thread to see how i suggest countless ways to make a difference

what is your psychological reason for ONLY trying to convince people with how bad it is, instead of convincing them by providing them with both ideas to solve it and an idea of how awesome the world is after the solution and what benefits that gains them ? Why do you stick to only the problem and its origin, instead of the entire package. The entire package is more likely to convince someone.

I don;t know why you keep accusing me of this as it is simply not true and i have already explained to you that i DO provide solutions and i HAVE laid out plans of a future decentralised system long before you even came to the forum

DECENTRALISATION has ALWAYS been my suggested solution here.....i've been saying it here since 2009!

Why when you know a flood is coming, and no one believes you and thus refuses to help you sandbag the river, which results in you not being able to sandbag the river in time to prevent the town from flooding, why do you not come up with ways to save the asses of you and those who do listen WHILST you try to convince others? I am not religious but this is like noah and the ark stuff man. Why do people only re-iterate how bad a problem is and why this keeps happening, instead of/a thinking of a way to live through it/with it/after it/solving it.

Because there is no high ground from which to escape the flood

Sure you could flee the country and that will buy you more time but the plan of these people is to control ALL countries and if big ones like the US fall the smaller ones that people have escaped to will fall very quickly

The time to make a stand is now and to do that needs a certain amount of awakened and aware people

Don't kid yourself there is an escape route...there isn't....it's stand or fall time

I agree we all need to take action. What I ask in this thread tho is in the context of my leg is broken and I am in the middle of a forest without people and cell service, how do i get home ?

if the forest is your home then you are already home

Thus what My question is, why do we only keep mentioning the problem instead of considering ways to get home and acting on them, instead of come up with ways to put the least stress on your leg to make healing later on less impaired.

I don't know why i need to keep repeating this to you....I HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING SOLUTIONS

Yet what you say is, because you are thinking of such things instead of only re-iterating the problem like the rest of us, I would allow the problem to get worse because I am thinking of a way to find the best way to get through this situation. You also say that the forest does not want me to do this and is gonna break my other leg if I try crawling out

I don't dig your analogy

That said, my question is not related to the reasons for issues, it is concerning the psychological reasons for the way we act in general when faced with issues.

As skarekrow said we have discussed that issue extensively on the forum on two seperate threads

The first post i ever made on this forum was on a thread about APATHY

This has already been covered...it's YOU who is reiterating stuff

believe me many of us have spent extensive time questioning why many people won't wake up even when so many outer events should alert them to a rising threat

The only thing that is remotely related thus far that you provided is that it is ignorance. So in the context of my question you are saying you re-iterate a presented problem because you are ignorant. Now I know that you read up on this stuff so that is not so. And I don't believe this is an either or thing. One can easily decide to re-iterate a problem whilst also brainstorming on ways to survive and flourish despite a problem in addition to thinking of ways to solve it. But why do we only stick to the re-iteration ? That is my question. My question has nothing to do with the cause of a problem but with the psychology for which we act in this manner.

go and look at the apathy threads

also i haven't just said it is ignorance...i've said that there are phases to the awakening process and that everyone goes at different speeds dependent on various factors, that some people are drugged into docility and that some people are refusing to take responsibility in the short term to avoid discomfort even though it will bring down far greater discomfort in the future (lack of maturity)

It's like you are not reading my posts

 

[muir]

It's not always easy. For example if someone can't pay off their loans, I wouldn't know the first thing to tell them because I know nothing about that. It'd be better for me to say nothing all than to give bad advice, or say something stupid like "try to make more money?"

Concerning paying off debt there are groups dealing with that in various ways (see my solutions thread for links to these) but there is what is being called a 'student debt bubble' which is going to burst just like the housing bubble did in 2008

My advice to students would be to club together into an organisation that aims to reach a certain numbers of members and when it does they all agree simultaneously to renege on the debt

In effect they should force the hand of the government to declare a 'debt jubilee' and write down all student debt thereby wiping out the debt of the younger generation

The system does not want to do this not because of any economic effect (that's all an illusion anyway...money isn't real!) but because they use debt as a way to enslave people to the system

So to make the system do something needs enough determined and aware people

It needs people to stand together and act as one

 

[Artisan]

I think I have found my answer to my original question and the essence of the thread. Which was Why do we keep re-iterating instead of finding a way to continue despite a problem or finding a way to fix it.


The answer I have found and come to conclude is as follows:

Whilst some re-iterate for validations a means for venting, or simply because they cannot be bothered to think further than the problem (apathy), others do so because they cannot psychologically let it be when someone in the audience keeps asks questions or gives answers that to the re-iterator seem to prove to them that the nature of the problem/issue/question is not understood.

That said, I would greatly value anymore insights anyone has ^^

---

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] I do read the possible solutions thread... this is not an attack on you. :/ its me asking why on human beings who in general don't do these things =_=

 

[SpecialEdition]

Again, the education thread is a perfect example. We all agree but no one is willing to come up with ways to make the best out of what we've got. Yes we cannot fight the system. But if you cannot pedal against a current then you go with it. So how come, when we all agree on something, that we re-iterate everything we agree on instead of using those brains we keep telling each-other to use to come up with the best ways to play with the hands we are dealt ?

There is definitely a psychological aspect involved here because honestly, people keep doing it without realizing it even when you call them out on it.
I'm beginning to believe [MENTION=7838]SpecialEdition[/MENTION] and [MENTION=251]Wyote[/MENTION] are right, and it is all about feeling a sense of Validation or a need to Vent.
And thinking of ways to work with the hand possibly does not give a lot of people as much a sense of validation as re-iterating everything everyone agrees on.

Personally I believe everything starts from within. We generate our own reality. When we continue to highlight what all of our issues are it is very easy to start believing there is nothing else positive in life. We negatively reinforce our own beliefs and so continue to talk about our problems without finding solutions. Why? Because actively seeking and implementing a solution means we have to abandon the belief system we created for ourselves by complaining endlessly and seeking validation from other people who will only agree that yes, our situation sucks and yes our feelings are valid. So we just keep going with it. This is where a lot of coddling and enabling happen.

Honestly, people want to feel comfortable and sometimes it's comforting to band together with people and agree that everything is terrible. Misery loves it's company. But there's an opportunity to do better. There's always an opportunity to not be a VICTIM.

 

[sprinkles]

I think I have found my answer to my original question and the essence of the thread. Which was Why do we keep re-iterating instead of finding a way to continue despite a problem or finding a way to fix it.


The answer I have found and come to conclude is as follows:

Whilst some re-iterate for validations a means for venting, or simply because they cannot be bothered to think further than the problem (apathy), others do so because they cannot psychologically let it be when someone in the audience keeps asks questions or gives answers that to the re-iterator seem to prove to them that the nature of the problem/issue/question is not understood.

That said, I would greatly value anymore insights anyone has ^^

---

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] I do read the possible solutions thread... this is not an attack on you. :/ its me asking why on human beings who in general don't do these things =_=

Hey you know, it really doesn't feel good to feel useless.

 

[Free Mind]

To me your question is simple. It's easy to bitch and moan about problems, key word being easy. It's much harder to think about a solution and fix the problem, key word being harder. As many have stated people in general are lazy, including myself.

Honestly I find it irritating going to work and everyone just wants to moan day in day out about shit, even stuff that just really isn't worth the energy moaning about. I wish it would stop, then I myself have just started moaning about people who moan to much. I'm trying to think of a solution to the problem I just identified now, and it's a lot harder. Maybe I need to change the topic and be more positive? Try and come up with the solution for them so they stop moaning? Or just join in with the easy path and moan as well.

There is so many things that are wrong that I see, so many that I have to bitch and whine about some. If I tried to fix everything wrong I see I'd burn out, I attempt one at a time. It's just much less energy to moan to someone about something and they agree.

 

[sprinkles]

To me your question is simple. It's easy to bitch and moan about problems, key word being easy. It's much harder to think about a solution and fix the problem, key word being harder. As many have stated people in general are lazy, including myself.

Honestly I find it irritating going to work and everyone just wants to moan day in day out about shit, even stuff that just really isn't worth the energy moaning about. I wish it would stop, then I myself have just started moaning about people who moan to much. I'm trying to think of a solution to the problem I just identified now, and it's a lot harder. Maybe I need to change the topic and be more positive? Try and come up with the solution for them so they stop moaning? Or just join in with the easy path and moan as well.

There is so many things that are wrong that I see, so many that I have to bitch and whine about some. If I tried to fix everything wrong I see I'd burn out, I attempt one at a time. It's just much less energy to moan to someone about something and they agree.

It might not be a good thing for everyone to try and problem solve anyway. For one it would probably produce too many ideas at once, and secondly, not everyone is um... qualified.

And actually often times I find myself hearing someone's proposed solution and wishing I could unhear it. In some cases it feels like they're doing us a service by NOT trying to come up with a solution. With some people it's just like.. "please, please don't try to solve anything, ok? Thank you."

 

[Free Mind]

It might not be a good thing for everyone to try and problem solve anyway. For one it would probably produce too many ideas at once, and secondly, not everyone is um... qualified.

And actually often times I find myself hearing someone's proposed solution and wishing I could unhear it. In some cases it feels like they're doing us a service by NOT trying to come up with a solution. With some people it's just like.. "please, please don't try to solve anything, ok? Thank you."

Yeah, I totally get that. Sometimes we just want someone to listen to us rather than try and problem solve our life.

 

[sprinkles]

I would also add that people seem to conflate solutions with workarounds. They're not the same thing.

For example, if we have a street full of robbers, one might suggest not going on that street so you don't get robbed. This is great if your goal is to simply avoid being robbed, but it is not an acceptable solution if the goal is to actually get rid of the robbers.

 

[sprinkles]

Yeah, I totally get that. Sometimes we just want someone to listen to us rather than try and problem solve our life.

And some times the complaint is merely that the problem is there at all. It's not that the problem can't be dealt with or worked around, it's the fact that the problem is there to begin with and continues to be there even if you get around it.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

My advice to students would be to club together into an organisation that aims to reach a certain numbers of members and when it does they all agree simultaneously to renege on the debt

Yeah, that's my thought too of a good start. You kick the corporations right were it hurts by doing that, specially if it turns massive and an organized one.

 

[muir]

Yeah, that's my thought too of a good start. You kick the corporations right were it hurts by doing that, specially if it turns massive and an organized one.

This is why progress is so slow

organised effort needs enough people who are aware enough to understand the need for organised effort in the first place!

Then once people are aware of whats going on and of possible actions they can take they then need to find the motivation to actually act

but i think students WOULD be motivated by this if such a movement got off the ground

 

[Wyote]

Sometimes we just want someone to listen to us rather than try and problem solve our life.

I assume that is what the vast majority of people on internet forums are doing, and when you get people who are "disruptive" to this norm people just don't know how to react.

Solving real problems... happens in the real world.

We can debate, refute, rally, contemplate and verbally masturbate all over forums but real change happens offline. I can yell at people here all day long about what can and should be done according to whatever "facts" I can dig up, but I'll get maybe one person to do one small thing if I try real hard and have some luck on my side with whoever it is that responds.

It's a tough world out there for everyone, we are all fighting for our lives and if a person isn't in any immediate life-threatening situation they are very significantly less likely to do anything differently or out of the norm... at all.

 

[muir]

I assume that is what the vast majority of people on internet forums are doing, and when you get people who are "disruptive" to this norm people just don't know how to react.

Solving real problems... happens in the real world.

We can debate, refute, rally, contemplate and verbally masturbate all over forums but real change happens offline. I can yell at people here all day long about what can and should be done according to whatever "facts" I can dig up, but I'll get maybe one person to do one small thing if I try real hard and have some luck on my side with whoever it is that responds.

It's a tough world out there for everyone, we are all fighting for our lives and if a person isn't in any immediate life-threatening situation they are very significantly less like to do anything differently or out of the norm... at all.

I don't agree with that

I'd say the vast majority of activism and mind changing is going on online

it might seem at times like nothing is happening out there in the world because its not occuring in your neighbourhood but more and more people are growing aware of certain issues and at some point that will come to a head...probably because of certain external events that are beginning to impose more and more on general society

When various crisis points occur it will be better if lots of people are aware of whats going on because then they will be primed to be ready to react

if people don't have a clue then they will just run around in circles like headless chickens when a crisis occurs

But if people are primed then they are ready to march