Why ? | INFJ Forum

Why ?

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by Artisan, Jun 12, 2015.

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  1. Artisan

    Artisan Dares, Dreams, Does

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    Hey people,


    I was wondering why people tend to bring up issues for discussion but mostly avoid talking about possible solutions, work a rounds and ways to progress despite these issues?

    Are we as human beings really more interested in conflicts than ways to overcome them and what comes after?

    What about us makes us so inclined to want to bitch about things but not come up with ways to progress despite them ?

    People always seem to imply how imperative it is that we do something about some issue, yet they when you ask them; "what should we do?", they will continue to enforce how important it is we do something about it. No suggestions for solutions, no ideas of what comes after. What makes us like that?

    Is it because it some kind of rare genetic trait in us that gives rise to the very few among st us who do think of such things that we have managed to progress as species as far as we did?


    Please share your thoughts down below ^^
     
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  2. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition Well-known member

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    Validation.
     
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  3. muir

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    These things have phases

    So the first phase is learning and acknowledging that something is wrong

    The next phase is then understanding whats wrong and the nature of the problem

    Then once a person understands the nature of the problem they can then start strategising solutions

    Then comes the organisation phase where an activated and aware person then reaches out to other activated and aware people and they begin to form groups of people planning to pool their efforts and resources to achieve a goal

    Those people beginning to organise then need to agree on the problem and on a suitable strategy to deal with that problem

    Then finally comes the actual ACTION

    So at the moment humanity is strung out across that spectrum

    Some people are already at the ACTION phase and are pro-actively making changes to their life and are also engaging in direct actions and activism of various kinds

    Whilst some people sadly aren't even at the first phase of acknowledging there is a problem!

    if you ask someone at that low stage why there is no solution they will give you an answer that reflects their own level of consciousness because that is the only way they can perceive reality at this time because they simply don't understand the nature of the problem yet; these are the kind of people who will accuse you of being a 'conspiracy theorist' for pointing out some of the problems that society currently faces

    For example if you asked a person at that stage about the current rash of trade agreements like TTIP or the TTP they would probably either not be aware of such agreements or if they are aware of them would probably try to give you some bullshit about them not being a bad thing and that's because those people are not as aware of what is going on as they think they are
     
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  4. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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    There are tons of different reasons why people enjoy complaining. Depending on where the person is coming from, it can be for validation, venting or actually to inspire progress. Without critique, progress might actually be far less. It is this tug of war of sorts, of people throwing out all sorts of negativity and then others responding with action or indifference depending on interpretations of importance. You know like the current transgender cause. It's not as if trans people didn't exist ten years ago or that people weren't complaining, but suddenly a larger number of people have decided it's important enough to take action.
     
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  5. muir

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    certain things are going to come into sharper and sharper focus for people as they begin to realise what is at stake

    The question isn't: ''why are some people talking about these things?''

    The question is: ''why isn't everyone talking about these things?''

    And the reality is that more and more people WILL be talking about these things as it becomes harder and harder to live in denial

    For example when the nazis took power in germany do you think people in germany weren't discussing what was going on in their country as they watched it move into fascism?

    As the nazis gained in power so to would more and more people be discussing what was going on

    The whole country was mobilised one way or the other

    We are approaching events of the same magnitude, it's just some people haven't realised it yet (possibly because they are drugged to the eyeballs with tranquilising drugs)
     
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  6. PintoBean

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    Good question. It's always easier to identify the problem, speculate (and bitch) about its causes, than it is to come up with a viable solution.
     
  7. OP
    Artisan

    Artisan Dares, Dreams, Does

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    Yeah cause like take the real cause of education thread for example. We all acknowledged there are problems with education, agreed upon what they are. Then I'm like so what should the next generation do ? And most people pass by that and continue on saying there are problems whilst appearing to avoid brainstorming on possible ways to overcome, workaround/with these problems for the following generations.


    Its a lot like that forum where a lot of leaders in human rights stuff were present, someone asked like: What comes after peace. no one appeared to realize they did not answer his question. Then like the dalai lama comes and hes like: You get more friends, everyone likes having more friends. (which is a brutally simple but true answer)

    :p
     
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  8. dwr46y

    dwr46y Well-known weirdo

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    One might suggest a solution which consists of something about Jews.
     
  9. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    A lot of times the only thing TO do is lobby and protest and beg the government to make changes which pretty much amounts to a bunch of talking and complaining in the first place.

    Like with education for example - what can you actually DO about it if you're not in charge? Pretty much nothing. You can come up with the best plan in the world but if you can't convince the people in charge to carry that plan out, it means nothing.
     
  10. muir

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    There are tons of ideas about what can be done

    It's not that people don't have ideas and it's not that things haven't been done differently and successfully in the past

    It is that everything is deliberately SABOTAGED centrally by a group of people who DO NOT WANT YOU TO BECOME EMPOWERED

    So if you want to leave the road open for humanity to make improvements in all these areas for example education then we HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE OBSTRUCTION

    The obstruction is a cabal of people bent on dominating the rest of humanity

    So once people are organised it becomes a case of taking power back off the cabal and decentralising it down to the community so that people are empowered at grass roots level to have the kind of communities they want to live in

    At the moment though we are blocked at every turn

    There are rules regulating basically EVERYTHING

    So its the people imposing those that we need to tackle
     
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    #10 muir, Jun 13, 2015
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  11. OP
    Artisan

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    yeah but we don't need to be ready for like a revolution or something to start discussing ideas right ? like when a group of say 5 people agrees something is a problem, then why not continue the conversation in ways that help with decisions for those about to run into that problem headfirst?

    Because like, right now, what you type is a re-iteration of why a problem exists. would it not bring in more people if it seemed like you were actively coming up with a solution ?

    Take for example that everyone on this forum agrees with a cabal being behind everything. Then would it not be pointless to keep re-iterating why the problem exists and what it is when everyone knows this and agrees?

    Would it not be more constructive to use these people who all agree on these points, to come up with ways to overcome, work through or work with, what they have and can do to make the best out of a bad situation?

    Again, the education thread is a perfect example. We all agree but no one is willing to come up with ways to make the best out of what we've got. Yes we cannot fight the system. But if you cannot pedal against a current then you go with it. So how come, when we all agree on something, that we re-iterate everything we agree on instead of using those brains we keep telling each-other to use to come up with the best ways to play with the hands we are dealt ?

    There is definitely a psychological aspect involved here because honestly, people keep doing it without realizing it even when you call them out on it.
    I'm beginning to believe [MENTION=7838]SpecialEdition[/MENTION] and [MENTION=251]Wyote[/MENTION] are right, and it is all about feeling a sense of Validation or a need to Vent.
    And thinking of ways to work with the hand possibly does not give a lot of people as much a sense of validation as re-iterating everything everyone agrees on.
     
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  12. muir

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    Not everyone yet understands that

    And some who do are in denial about the nature of that cabal

    But yeah..i think a lot more people on the forum are aware now then say 2 years ago due to the sharing of info by some people (who are perhaps not given any credit for that)

    That's why i started a solutions thread a long time ago:

    http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27053

    I put a lot of ideas from an alternatives dictionary on it as well as a lot of tech that's coming out of the online libertarian community as well as anything else i come across (And way before that i posted a lot of ideas on lerxts thread to do with combatting capitalism)

    I invite you to post solutions there too and also to post any suggestions you might have

    if you are looking for somewhere for that process to unfold then i think that thread is the obvious place

    I believe decentralisation of power is the solution we are looking for and i have had epic discussions for years here explaining in depth why i think that is the way to go

    The stumbling block, as i see it, for a long time was the failure of many people to see just how centralised power has become...so then an emphasis was placed on exploring that...but solutions have been discussed all along

    Listen.......your ideas will be squashed........do you understand?

    The cabal have suppressed free energy, alternative medicines, alternative currencies and educational freedoms

    There is also NO POINT fighting milllions of little campaigns for example having one group of people marching and waving 'save the whales' while another group over in another city is marching in an anti-war protest while elsewhere some trade unions are marching against austerity or whatever because when they are all disunited (as they are at the moment) the system can just shrug them off

    What needs to happen now is for ALL THE PEOPLE to come together to form a fist that can punch through the system because the system (the cabal) is the root cause of ALL OF THE SYMPTOMS that people are protesting about

    But if you listen to some people online you will find that the system has ingrained certain prejudices amongst them and has also set factions of the public against each other; this is keeping people divided and fighting amongst themselves

    So the struggle is about building solidarity amongst a suspicious public who has forgotten how to work together

    It depends on who you are speaking to

    if you are speaking to a person who is still at the level of not understanding about the cabal then a conversation about the cabal is relevant

    Everyone is at a different stage so you cannot speak to ALL OF THOSE people simultaneously

    You need to have one on one conversations with individuals according to what they need to hear and that is what i try to do; some people might have heard that already and be bored with it and they would need seperate conversations
     
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    #12 muir, Jun 13, 2015
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  13. OP
    Artisan

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    [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

    Are you sure you see my point tho? I am suggesting that if for example you were in a room with 200 other exact copies of you who all have the exact same opinion of you, you are more likely to re-iterate a problem than to work together on ways to make the best out of the hands you've been dealt.

    Doing the best you can with the hand you have been dealt does not always mean fixing a problem, but it means getting the best possible result despite the problem.
    When you say some one will crush you regardless then I wonder why they would if you play their game and dont go against them? I am talking about if you're going to screwed with either choice you make, what choice gives you the best chances and possibilities in your future because of what happens after as a result of your choice.

    Your thread appears to be intended to be about coming up with solutions to fix problems, yet what it mostly holds is the re-iteration of the existence of problems or their origins. And most of all there is a significant lack in people who are trying to determine what the best is one can do despite experiencing a problem.

    And that is why I made this thread. Because I want to understand the psychological side of why people re-iterate problems instead of solving or coming up with ways to get the most advantageous result despite the problem.
     
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  14. muir

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    if you do not understand the need to respond to the cabals moves then you do not understand the nature of the problem

    There would have been guys like you prevaricating like that in the 1930's as the nazis rose to power while guys like me were saying: ''we need to stand together and do something NOW''
     
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  15. OP
    Artisan

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    Great... so now people like me gave rise to Nazism because I want to know the psychological reason for the why people think in a specific way... =_=
     
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  16. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    I think a lot of it has to do with my thread asking “Why so much apathy?"

    Also, the issues that people may be complaining about are usually things that become problems due to people being increasingly uneducated, don’t understand politics or don’t care.

    People feel powerless.
     
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  17. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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    Because it's hard, and people are naturally apathetic and actively seek out the path of least resistance.
     
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  18. muir

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    No people gave way to nazism because they carried on with mental acrobatics instead of getting down to facing reality about what was happening

    The answer you are looking for is IGNORANCE

    if people were truely aware of what they were facing they would respond...but they are ignorant...and if you tell them...they don't really believe

    and then there is a further problem now that many people are actually drugged into docility with mood altering drugs by the system which encourages that
     
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    #18 muir, Jun 13, 2015
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  19. muir

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    yeah the problem with that though is that it is a false economy choosing to ignore a problem for a while that will then compound and come back and bite you in the ass later on

    There is an experiment done with kids of various ages where you say to them: ''you can have this single square of chocolate now or if you wait unitl later today you can have a whole chocolate bar''

    It's called 'delayed gratification'

    It's a sign of congitive development when a child is able to put off reward in order to receive a greater one later on

    But here we are talking about putting off responsbility that would otherwise be uncomfortable in the short term with the result that we will all have to deal with a far greater pain in the not too distant future because we did not take responsiblity earlier on

    It's basically retarded

    So it might seem like the path of least resistance in the short term but it is the road to a world of pain in the long run
     
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    #19 muir, Jun 13, 2015
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  20. OP
    Artisan

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    I agree with you man, its apathy. its so much easier to keep yelling houston we got a problem, rather than finding a way to continue despite the problem or fixing it when waiting for a reply would be too late.

    alright then you said it yourself they don't believe. they will not act. you are alone in this. Why are you not thinking of ways to survive this whilst you try to convince people? Since when can we only do one thing ? what is your psychological reason for ONLY trying to convince people with how bad it is, instead of convincing them by providing them with both ideas to solve it and an idea of how awesome the world is after the solution and what benefits that gains them ? Why do you stick to only the problem and its origin, instead of the entire package. The entire package is more likely to convince someone.

    Why when you know a flood is coming, and no one believes you and thus refuses to help you sandbag the river, which results in you not being able to sandbag the river in time to prevent the town from flooding, why do you not come up with ways to save the asses of you and those who do listen WHILST you try to convince others? I am not religious but this is like noah and the ark stuff man. Why do people only re-iterate how bad a problem is and why this keeps happening, instead of/a thinking of a way to live through it/with it/after it/solving it.

    I agree we all need to take action. What I ask in this thread tho is in the context of my leg is broken and I am in the middle of a forest without people and cell service, how do i get home ?

    Thus what My question is, why do we only keep mentioning the problem instead of considering ways to get home and acting on them, instead of come up with ways to put the least stress on your leg to make healing later on less impaired.

    Yet what you say is, because you are thinking of such things instead of only re-iterating the problem like the rest of us, I would allow the problem to get worse because I am thinking of a way to find the best way to get through this situation. You also say that the forest does not want me to do this and is gonna break my other leg if I try crawling out :p


    That said, my question is not related to the reasons for issues, it is concerning the psychological reasons for the way we act in general when faced with issues.
    The only thing that is remotely related thus far that you provided is that it is ignorance. So in the context of my question you are saying you re-iterate a presented problem because you are ignorant. Now I know that you read up on this stuff so that is not so. And I don't believe this is an either or thing. One can easily decide to re-iterate a problem whilst also brainstorming on ways to survive and flourish despite a problem in addition to thinking of ways to solve it. But why do we only stick to the re-iteration ? That is my question. My question has nothing to do with the cause of a problem but with the psychology for which we act in this manner.
     
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