Why do you forgive?

[knight in battle]

My counselor wants me to forgive the people who have hurt me most recently. I just want to get away from the friends who have violated me emotionally. I feel like a loser with nothing more to give to that friend, as if that friendship was worthless. Maybe I don't want to forgive because forgiveness means I might have to start hanging out with him again. Maybe it means I can move on and be at peace. I don't know. Whatever it is, I'd rather not bother with it right now. Does forgiveness mean I'm wrong, too?

 

[CindyLou]

My counselor wants me to forgive the people who have hurt me most recently. I just want to get away from the friends who have violated me emotionally. I feel like a loser with nothing more to give to that friend, as if that friendship was worthless. Maybe I don't want to forgive because forgiveness means I might have to start hanging out with him again. Maybe it means I can move on and be at peace. I don't know. Whatever it is, I'd rather not bother with it right now. Does forgiveness mean I'm wrong, too?

You need to forgive them because if you don't you'll hold onto anger, you'll be angry and it will turn into bitterness and it will infect all of your interpersonal relationships. Recognize, feel the hurt and sorrow of our condition as humans. Understand that sometimes other people will never acknowledge that they hurt you and sometimes you don't get justice. Let it go, or the anger will defile you and could turn you into the person that hurt you.

 

[mochi]

I strongly disagree with your counselor.

I don't think you have to forgive someone to be happy. Just forget about them.

Sometimes forgiving someone can bring more pain, especially if it is something very very severe.

It would depend on the context of the situation.

But only you can make that choice. It wouldn't be real forgiveness anyway if you felt you were pressured to do so.

 

[Sir]

To me, forgiveness means you are accepting the other person for their flaws.

I believe that our strongest abilities as INFJ's is to understand people. Our ability to forgive comes from understanding the underlying motives of people's actions.

I believe that people are pure at heart, that the actions we perceive as malicious are a result of the way they have been raised and treated. They say that INFJ's see two layers in everyone, the aesthetics and behavior on the outside, and the feelings and motivations on the inside. I believe there is a layer (or perhaps layers) underneath the inside, maybe it is the pure layer that I believe to exist in everyone.

I've been hurt a lot...gone through abuse that I don't willingly talk to people about except for those I trust. And there are some things darker than others that I have never shared with anyone.

I have not forgiven the person who has committed the darkest crime against my soul but I feel like I will have to at some point in my life in order to obtain a level of happiness that I have not felt before the terrible incident occurred. So you do not have to forgive the people who have hurt you right now, at this moment, but if I were you, I would see their actions towards you as a result of being immature and the need to push people away to avoid being hurt themselves, and forgive them eventually.

To summarize my post, I believe forgiveness leads to happiness and love because it makes us realize that the action we are forgiving was not intentionally committed and that people are just as pure as we believe ourselves to be at the core.

This sounds highly religious but I'm not preaching any idea but my own that I have drawn from much contemplation. I'm very open-minded.

Also, this is my first post, so hello to anyone who reads this.

 

[JGirl]

forgiveness is vital to me, but i forgive the act, not the person.
it's never for the one who did me wrong. it's for me.
i will not carry grudges and i will not hold onto hurt. no one has that power over me anymore.

 

[Sir]

I don't think you have to forgive someone to be happy. Just forget about them.

I disagree with the latter part of this point because we are not capable of TRULY forgetting anything. Sure, memories will be harder to access the longer we do not think about them but they will always stay in the deep recesses of our mind.

Sometimes forgiving someone can bring more pain, especially if it is something very very severe.

Disagree with this too..but that's only my own opinion and for the reasons stated in my previous post.

But only you can make that choice. It wouldn't be real forgiveness anyway if you felt you were pressured to do so.

I agree with this point the most. Forgive when you have had enough time to think about it and come to terms with it. Even if that takes years.

forgiveness is vital to me, but i forgive the act, not the person.

Could you explain this a little more? Actions, to me, seem synonymous or directly related to the person and are not able to stand alone.
Did you mean to say you come to accept their actions?

 

[JGirl]

Could you explain this a little more? Actions, to me, seem synonymous or directly related to the person and are not able to stand alone.
Did you mean to say you come to accept their actions?

yes, sort of. i accept that it happened. i accept that they did it. i accept that it affected me and i also accept that those feelings are only mine to deal with. i don't need to hear how sorry they are.
forgiveness, for me at least, has nothing to do with their sorrow or regret. it has to do with me not living under that negativity.
for example
i can forgive an act of, say, indiscretion or disloyalty, but that does not necessarily mean i want that person around me anymore or that i have to allow them my friendship afterward.
(depends on the severity of the situation of course)
i don't need to give that person my forgiveness (like some get out of jail free card or something) to let it go. if they need to feel forgiven (need to feel better about what they did) they need to look inside themselves, learn from their actions. move on. just like i have.

 

[mochi]

I disagree with the latter part of this point because we are not capable of TRULY forgetting anything. Sure, memories will be harder to access the longer we do not think about them but they will always stay in the deep recesses of our mind.

I guess I did not mean it literally. I agree at some point, you can stop and think to dig up those memories again. My point was to simply focus on other good things in life rather than the people than have done you harm. In that way, it's "forgettable."

Disagree with this too..but that's only my own opinion and for the reasons stated in my previous post.

So we agree to disagree ;3

I personally don't think everyone should be forgiven nor deserve to. In most cases, probably yes, but try forgiving someone who 1) did something extremely terrible and 2)have no remorse for it, and really I don't think it will help. For example, forgiving someone who raped you or killed your children.

/end bitterness

 

[Sir]

yes, sort of. i accept that it happened. i accept that they did it. i accept that it affected me and i also accept that those feelings are only mine to deal with. i don't need to hear how sorry they are.
forgiveness, for me at least, has nothing to do with their sorrow or regret. it has to do with me not living under that negativity.
for example
i can forgive an act of, say, indiscretion or disloyalty, but that does not mean i want that person around me anymore or that i have to allow them my friendship afterward.
i don't need to give that person my forgiveness (like some get out of jail free card or something) to let it go. if they need to feel forgiven (need to feel better about what they did) they need to look inside themselves, learn from their actions. move on. just like i have.

I see, I find your views on forgiveness, while the definition is different from mine, very wise when it comes to making your own happiness a priority.

I see where you're coming from when it comes to you feeling the need to put your priority of happiness before other people's happiness and I agree that they need to reassess themselves in order to learn but I believe that is only one side of the coin when it comes to the need to feel forgiven AND also forgive.

INFJ's seek harmony, but some people take it to heart that we want harmony among people OTHER than ourselves and that we see that we feel the need to be martyred as an action to be seen as pure. I think deep down, the true goal of the INFJ is to achieve harmony among people whilst including ourselves.

That being said, the other side of the coin of feeling forgiven comes from the person they have 'sinned' against. People need to hear it from those that they want to forgive them that they forgive them, they need to take in how they made the victim feel so that they suffer just as much as them and feel enlightened and be able to move on. And this is also beneficial to the victim because they may truly see and understand that the person regrets their actions and truly forgive them. The keyword here is truly.

If both parties only ever see one side of the coin, one will only feel regret and the other will only feel like they have lost someone. If both people see both sides, things will be balanced and true harmony is achieved.

Of course, this takes time and an incredible amount of open-mindedness that I have begun to take steps in applying to my daily life. It is hard and we have to sacrifice some of the principles we've built in order to do it but I feel it is ultimately worth it in the end.

I find it ironic that I have always criticized Christianity for being too discriminant in my earlier years but have realized that it's the people that are the problem, not the religion itself. And Christianity may not be 100% correct but I draw many parallels between it and my own beliefs from it's traits of forgiveness, love, happiness, and Jesus's immense burden brought on by taking in everyone's 'sin' so that he can forgive people for those who are not open-minded enough to forgive them.

 

[Agnostic Monk]

I agree with Sir in that I think forgiveness should be about accepting a person for who they are instead of who you want(ed) them to be.

 

[Sir]

I agree with Sir in that I think forgiveness should be about accepting a person for who they are instead of who you want(ed) them to be.

Thank you. And I must say, I am rather fond of your username and would adopt it myself had I come up with the conjunction of the two words before you. It describes that we see ourselves as wise/enlightened but at the same time, we can never know anything for sure. My username seems so conceited now that I think of it, as it is a term that is usually reserved for respectable people and I feel foolish to have chosen it as it sounds like it deems and demands respect instead of earning it.

 

[Odyne]

Those who have hurt me for no reason (as in I've never wronged them in any way) will never be forgiven and I will never forget what they did. I will probably ignore them, marginalize them until their existence becomes so trivial that the memory of it no longer bothers me, but they will never have my forgiveness, and I will always keep in mind what they did if we ever make contact again.

I disagree with your counselor, I think it's normal and natural to resent those who have hurt you or taken advantage of you. It's not healthy to drag it on and hold the grudge for very long however. I think what "forgiveness" in this context means is moving on from that painful time and memory in order to allow for better and happier ones to replace them.



I don't forgive and I don't forget, but I do move on, because life is short and people like that are not worth my time.

 

[JGirl]

I see, I find your views on forgiveness, while the definition is different from mine, very wise when it comes to making your own happiness a priority.

I see where you're coming from when it comes to you feeling the need to put your priority of happiness before other people's happiness and I agree that they need to reassess themselves in order to learn but I believe that is only one side of the coin when it comes to the need to feel forgiven AND also forgive.INFJ's seek harmony, but some people take it to heart that we want harmony among people OTHER than ourselves and that we see that we feel the need to be martyred as an action to be seen as pure. I think deep down, the true goal of the INFJ is to achieve harmony among people whilst including ourselves.

That being said, the other side of the coin of feeling forgiven comes from the person they have 'sinned' against. People need to hear it from those that they want to forgive them that they forgive them, they need to take in how they made the victim feel so that they suffer just as much as them and feel enlightened and be able to move on. And this is also beneficial to the victim because they may truly see and understand that the person regrets their actions and truly forgive them. The keyword here is truly.If both parties only ever see one side of the coin, one will only feel regret and the other will only feel like they have lost someone. If both people see both sides, things will be balanced and true harmony is achieved.

Of course, this takes time and an incredible amount of open-mindedness that I have begun to take steps in applying to my daily life. It is hard and we have to sacrifice some of the principles we've built in order to do it but I feel it is ultimately worth it in the end.

I find it ironic that I have always criticized Christianity for being too discriminant in my earlier years but have realized that it's the people that are the problem, not the religion itself. And Christianity may not be 100% correct but I draw many parallels between it and my own beliefs from it's traits of forgiveness, love, happiness, and Jesus's immense burden brought on by taking in everyone's 'sin' so that he can forgive people for those who are not open-minded enough to forgive them.

i think you are misunderstanding my meaning (with regard to the first bolded part of your post)
it has nothing to do with happiness, mine or theirs.
the second bolded part,
i think that behavior is self indulgent and self depreciating at the same time. strange. i also don't feel it's necessarily the best way to learn from one's mistakes.
i hurt you, i acknowledge and apologize. you accknowledge (or not) said apology. either way it's irrelevant because i'm not apologizing to get into your favor again, i'm apologizing cuz i was an ass and i hurt you or wronged you.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

I don't think that forgiveness means you have to do anything as far as hanging out, etc. To me it means nothing more than dropping excessive amounts of negative thoughts and/or emotions associated with that person. Sometimes it takes a while to be able to do that, but I think that overall it is helpful. It doesn't necessarily make what the other person has done okay, but it means that I'm not going to let it run my life i.e. "That person's going to be there? Well I guess I'm not showing up then." etc. I agree with your counselor's advice in the context of what I've described. I don't think that forgiving someone means that you have to go to the person and declare "I forgive you for what you've done. Let's be friends again and hang out all the time."

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

If I do, it's because it's less a pain in the ass than not.

 

[JGirl]

I don't think that forgiveness means you have to do anything as far as hanging out, etc. To me it means nothing more than dropping excessive amounts of negative thoughts and/or emotions associated with that person. Sometimes it takes a while to be able to do that, but I think that overall it is helpful. It doesn't necessarily make what the other person has done okay, but it means that I'm not going to let it run my life i.e. "That person's going to be there? Well I guess I'm not showing up then." etc. I agree with your counselor's advice in the context of what I've described. I don't think that forgiving someone means that you have to go to the person and declare "I forgive you for what you've done. Let's be friends again and hang out all the time."

yes agreed

 

[Sir]

i think you are misunderstanding my meaning (with regard to the first bolded part of your post)
it has nothing to do with happiness, mine or theirs.
the second bolded part,
i think that behavior is self indulgent and self depreciating at the same time. strange. i also don't feel it's necessarily the best way to learn from one's mistakes.
i hurt you, i acknowledge and apologize. you accknowledge (or not) said apology. either way it's irrelevant because i'm not apologizing to get into your favor again, i'm apologizing cuz i was an ass and i hurt you or wronged you.

Ah, I misunderstood, it's to simply move on, correct? But I was speaking in terms of moving on and rebuilding your happiness by replacing what caused your unhappiness in the first place with things/people that make you happy.

About the second topic:
Perhaps you find that strange because you're not used to balance as I think those two traits balance each other out. My philosophy is balance and my post is to express the idea that fixing things can lead to balance. But perhaps that is where we agree to disagree.

I apologize for the same reasons you do but ALSO to get into people's favors (perhaps favors isn't the right word here) again. I feel very strongly about this so I will ask two questions.

Out of the following options, deep down, which do you believe most, honestly and truthfully?

You feel best if:
A) They sincerely forgave you after apologizing sincerely and you can feel that sincerity.
B) You only apologize sincerely.

If they don't forgive you after you apologized sincerely:
A) It's because they're being stubborn about their pride.
B) It's because they're not ready to forgive you and need more time to come to terms with it.
C) It's because they don't believe you.

Acknowledgement of something has many different levels.

 

[Skarekrow]

There is already too much hatred and negativity in life without adding more weight...to me, forgiving someone means I am letting it go...not necessarily that I will trust, hang out, or have anything to do with that person....it means that I have more important things to do and to think about than something F-ed up that you did to me. I am not going to carry the hate inside me where it will rot and fester...so you are forgiven...I stop thinking about it. But don't think we are best buddies anymore.

 

[this is only temporary]

Thank you. And I must say, I am rather fond of your username and would adopt it myself had I come up with the conjunction of the two words before you. It describes that we see ourselves as wise/enlightened but at the same time, we can never know anything for sure. My username seems so conceited now that I think of it, as it is a term that is usually reserved for respectable people and I feel foolish to have chosen it as it sounds like it deems and demands respect instead of earning it.

I have to admit, Agnostic Monk is a pretty great username, but as someone who has (obviously) had trouble coming up with a decent username, I like Sir alot also. It makes me think of Namaste a little. And I do not think it sounds conceited. And in the real world, a person does have to demand respect, as well as earn it, or respect will never be given. Sir.

That is one way to head off the need to forgive, to demand respect in the first place.

Does that have something to do with forgiveness? I dunno, maybe it does. (But for heavens sake don't let me fool you into thinking I have a clue! Because I really don't.)

 

[JGirl]

Ah, I misunderstood, it's to simply move on, correct? But I was speaking in terms of moving on and rebuilding your happiness by replacing what caused your unhappiness in the first place with things/people that make you happy.

About the second topic:
Perhaps you find that strange because you're not used to balance as I think those two traits balance each other out. My philosophy is balance and my post is to express the idea that fixing things can lead to balance. But perhaps that is where we agree to disagree.

I apologize for the same reasons you do but ALSO to get into people's favors (perhaps favors isn't the right word here) again. I feel very strongly about this so I will ask two questions.

Out of the following options, deep down, which do you believe most, honestly and truthfully?

You feel best if:
A) They sincerely forgave you after apologizing sincerely and you can feel that sincerity.
B) You only apologize sincerely.

If they don't forgive you after you apologized sincerely:
A) It's because they're being stubborn about their pride.
B) It's because they're not ready to forgive you and need more time to come to terms with it.
C) It's because they don't believe you.

Acknowledgement of something has many different levels.

again what i'm posting hasn't anything to do with happiness. forgiveness is not about happiness.
i do not pursue happiness. it finds me when the times are right. my job is to live in a way that is most helpful to my spiritual journey, sometimes that's good sometimes it's tough. but it's always meaningful to me.

to answer your questions
You feel best if:
C it's not about feeling best. it's about accepting responsibility
If they don't forgive you after you apologized sincerely:
D it's because they have their own issues to go through that they choose not to share with me. it does not change what i need to learn from the experience, only adds an unfortunate facet to it.

no disrespect, but i think we should just let it go at this point.
it's obvious to me that we see things very differently and i'm not into arguing my point about it.