Why do you forgive?

[Sir]

Just to add a bit more on my views:

My way of forgiveness does not automatically lead to trusting people again, but rather a deeper understanding of each other.

The trust level may reset but the deeper understanding of each other allows for the development of a much stronger bond and level of trust than the bond and trust that existed before they were destroyed. It is up to the two people to decide whether or not they want to risk this.

They may or may not "fuck up" again(I feel drained from trying to look at this objectively because it requires me to go more into detail so I'm going to let my ego take part of this post, I feel it's only fair to try and see it from my point of view objectively so you're equally drained ). But I strongly believe if you repeat the process of forgiveness each time, the bond of trust becomes stronger and the fuckups become less damaging because the person fucking up will become a more well-rounded person and take discretion to avoid fucking up and the person who was fucked up will gain a deeper understanding of why the other person fucked up. And if they do fuck up worse than before, communication between the two was probably not present as much as it should have been despite the higher capability of understanding in stronger bonds of trusts. OR it was PURELY an accident, not the same thing as a mistake, and it is up to the person who suffered to accept that.

I apologize if cursing is seen as naive and ignorant around here, I feel like being blunt right now because explaining things in depth with a better vocabulary can be draining (like I mentioned earlier) because it requires me to think about the right word to use while also conveying the idea that is in my head.

 

[Sir]

again what i'm posting hasn't anything to do with happiness. forgiveness is not about happiness.
i do not pursue happiness. it finds me when the times are right. my job is to live in a way that is most helpful to my spiritual journey, sometimes that's good sometimes it's tough. but it's always meaningful to me.

to answer your questions
You feel best if:
C it's not about feeling best. it's about accepting responsibility
If they don't forgive you after you apologized sincerely:
D it's because they have their own issues to go through that they choose not to share with me. it does not change what i need to learn from the experience, only adds an unfortunate facet to it.

no disrespect, but i think we should just let it go at this point.
it's obvious to me that we see things very differently and i'm not into arguing my point about it.

I don't see this as an argument...and I haven't seen any argumentative qualities in my posts...perhaps I overlooked something or gave off the wrong vibe, sorry if it was the latter. I'm simply interested in your views and sharing my own because they give me insight and help me develop my own views.

That being said, I feel your first answer is too objective as I see "responsibility" as an objective trait and you dismissed subjectivity when you said "it's not about feeling". I want your subjective answers and am asking you to reach into your feelings to do so. And your second answer is partly related to what I meant by B, I just attached two different answers to that one, my mistake.

Not trying to accuse you of anything, but perhaps you're an INTJ and not an INFJ? Maybe borderline both, which wouldn't surprise me, considering I found myself that way at one point but have learned to trust my feelings more.

You don't have to reply to this if you do not wish to, I understand if it's draining.

I have to admit, Agnostic Monk is a pretty great username, but as someone who has (obviously) had trouble coming up with a decent username, I like Sir alot also. It makes me think of Namaste a little. And I do not think it sounds conceited. And in the real world, a person does have to demand respect, as well as earn it, or respect will never be given. Sir.

That is one way to head off the need to forgive, to demand respect in the first place.

Does that have something to do with forgiveness? I dunno, maybe it does. (But for heavens sake don't let me fool you into thinking I have a clue! Because I really don't.)

That's pretty interesting...especially the demanding respect part being related to forgiveness. I might agree with that, but need time to think about it first and see how they relate before I say anything about them. You might have convinced me to accept my username!

I apologize for the double post.

 

[CindyLou]

When you've been victimized, try not to focus on your hurt and what they did to you or you'll miss the opportunity to learn about real love. I think forgiving them is crucial to your healing. Good luck.

 

[just me]

If the real question is WHY, it is because I want to. There have been extremely difficult times when people keep serving the same platter of food after a brief change, leading me to cause myself more grief if I spend any more time with them. Giving them another chance time after time ends up NOT part of the equation. Why step into boiling water over and over again? I can still forgive what they have done, but decide I do not want any more of that. I avoid them for the most part except in cordial passing.

There are things I have not forgiven yet in my life, although I do not dwell on the things or they will eat me up inside. Maybe it takes more time with some things. A surgeon gave my Dad medications without looking at his chart, for example. It caused his death in two painful days. I would like to have their license on my wall where they could not practice any more. I see what they did as being lazy and it cost me my Dad. It may take an awful lot of time before I can forgive them or the surgeon that told me he had his pain meds covered immediately after surgery. Between the two of them, I just don't know. They were both irresponsible and it cost a human life dear to me. Beat me or spit in my face and I could forgive either much sooner than my Dad's death. I am human.

I have watched people who never forgive anyone or anything and it bothers me to see them miserable. I feel for them and understand somewhat, but when a person holds a grudge for life it tends to eat away at one's insides. It is not healthy for them when they dwell on it. I beat myself up and blame myself for being too weak to help them learn. It is possible maybe I have not completed my learning experience.

Someone that steals all the time? I have a hard time forgiving them. I avoid them. Over time, I may deal with them but it is with one eye open and watching my back constantly. Dealing with a professional in business that is known to try and take advantage of everyone is taxing on the mind, so I stear clear if I can.

Maybe I am a picky forgiver: certainly not the forgiver I feel I should be? I think I forgive easier and more than most, but I will be honest about it when I have a problem with it. My honesty and integrity is more important than sending out a fake message. If I love you I will forgive you much easier. I am supposed to love everyone, right? Maybe there is a grey area with me. Maybe time will complete my learning experience.

It hurts to forgive in a relationship when someone is cheating. How can you not wonder where they are from then on? What they are doing? Who with? Time for me to part the ways with them. After that, maybe I can forgive them but I may never give them the opportunity again.

I have seen people on TV forgiving a person that murdered their child in cold blood, and before the case has gone to court. Don't know if I could do that. Hope I never have to find out.

I guess time will help me get over my bitterness, as it has helped me to get over my anger. That won't bring my Dad, my best friend, back. Life can be so unfair, but it can also be precious and great, too. I may have to think about this some more.

 

[JGirl]

[MENTION=5051]Sir[/MENTION]

I don't see this as an argument...and I haven't seen any argumentative qualities in my posts...perhaps I overlooked something or gave off the wrong vibe, sorry if it was the latter. I'm simply interested in your views and sharing my own because they give me insight and help me develop my own views.

i did not mean you are being argumentative. i meant argument in the sense of making point and counterpoint, not as in bickering. i was basically saying i couldn't be bothered to type out my stance on forgiveness anymore than i had. laziness on my part, as well as the fact that i was eating a really good dinner while posting. busted.

That being said, I feel your first answer is too objective as I see "responsibility" as an objective trait and you dismissed subjectivity when you said "it's not about feeling". I want your subjective answers and am asking you to reach into your feelings to do so. And your second answer is partly related to what I meant by B, I just attached two different answers to that one, my mistake.

when i said it's not about feeling, i was referring to my own experience, as i believe i did throughout my posts.
the bottom line is that i feel very deeply and intensely, so i've learned to keep that in check for my own sanity if you will lol
i feel with my heart and think with my head.
it doesn't matter whether you wanted something different than the way i express myself, sorry. no offense. i expressed how i deal with forgiveness, and the reasons i do so. why do you need my feelings in there too?

Not trying to accuse you of anything, but perhaps you're an INTJ and not an INFJ? Maybe borderline both, which wouldn't surprise me, considering I found myself that way at one point but have learned to trust my feelings more.

this is amusing to me, because more and more i see people hiding behind these letters as though they are a status of some sort. not to be curt but come on!
i am what i am. i took numerous tests and come up infj every time. it matters not to me anyway, it only correlates to what i already know about myself. interesting trivia at best.
but there are those who feel they need to live by it, keep testing to make sure of any changes etc. like you can't see it in your own lives?
call me whatever letters you think suit me. i'm still me.

You don't have to reply to this if you do not wish to, I understand if it's draining.

lol yes there's been a bit of rumor around the forum that i'm old.

 

[Sir]

Hmm, you're right, I kind of have been objectifying people with the MBTI types, definitely a bad habit that I'm going to start refraining from.

Since we're naturally good at reading people, I feel I've become overconfident with that with the knowledge of MBTI types.

We definitely are hesitant to share our personal feelings so perhaps it's harder for infj's to read each other because speaking from my own experience here, I don't like feeling like I'm easily readable or want people to think they probably know everything about me when they don't. So I apologize about the 'counterpointing' activity.

Yes, the MBTI types are there to give insight into people rather than describing them completely but the objective side of me believes there is a way to classify people...not for the purpose of manipulating or trying to understand them subjectively but for the scientific need to understand them objectively and see psychological similarities between people of the same class.

Truthfully, humans are too complex to categorize to the core of their being because they'd be the only one in their category. But I believe there is a way to predict and understand their behavior to a certain point. Perhaps in the future, the MBTI types will advance into a new classification system made up of more than 16 types, maybe hundreds of types. We are very similar but I'm noticing more specific subtle differences in subtypes that is usually hard to discern. Specifically, I feel close to those of the enneagram of 6.

This is not to say that it's okay to treat people objectively because of their types, I know that now, and while the MBTI types resound and reaffirm what I see in people, it's still important to treat them like people rather than lab rats to be observed.

We're going slightly off-topic here so on the topic of forgiveness, I still remain pretty firm in my belief, despite your own.

 

[Vict]

Bitterness is only productive for so long. After that it's running in circles.

 

[JGirl]

[MENTION=5051]Sir[/MENTION]

We're going slightly off-topic here so on the topic of forgiveness, I still remain pretty firm in my belief, despite your own.

that's what's so great about humans. we can see a thing in so many different ways.

would it be more accurate then to say you remain firm in your belief alongside my own?

 

[Sir]

[MENTION=5051]Sir[/MENTION]

that's what's so great about humans. we can see a thing in so many different ways.

would it be more accurate then to say you remain firm in your belief alongside my own?

Hmm...let me see...nope.

The way I work is I open my mind up to-actually, I'll just copy and paste what I have written in my profile.

Prepend everything I say with "I believe...".

My posts are merely my own and as such, come from my own opinions.

I do not believe that anything can become committed and set in stone until we understand everything about the world and how it works.

That being said, I believe one of our goal in life should be to see this invisible web of interconnectedness and interrelatedness. Everything affects everything, no matter how small and insignificant the effect, action, or object.

I am capable of and will change my opinions because I am open-minded enough to see other people's beliefs and understand them and if I feel that those beliefs are stronger and make more sense to me than my own, I am inclined to adopt that position.

So I am seeking the one real truth, no matter how many times I have to change it. I am just open minded and have to accept that what you perceive as forgiveness is different from what I perceive as forgiveness. So I am firm in what I believe to be the truth but I am firm in the belief that you have every right to remain firm in your own belief. But, obviously, I CAN perceive it from your view, it's just not my perception.

 

[JGirl]

Hmm...let me see...nope.

you say you are firm in your belief in spite of mine. i suggest we can both have our beliefs alongside one another.
you disagree. you go on to say something about finding the one truth, but we aren't talking about truth here, we are talking about how each of us deals with forgiveness and our reasons for doing things the way we do.

So I am seeking the one real truth, no matter how many times I have to change it. I am just open minded and have to accept that what you perceive as forgiveness is different from what I perceive as forgiveness.

i found this very confusing.
you are seeking the one real truth no matter how many times you have to change it? change what? the truth? how you see the truth? what you believe is the truth?
if you are openminded as you say then you would have no trouble agreeing to have a belief system alongside someone else whose ideas differ from yours. i would never challenge the way another dealt with something as personal as forgiveness. it's only important that they experience it in a way that is meaningful and healthy for them.
in any case forgiveness has no hard and real 'truth'. it is subjective, it is an experience, not a fact. and everyone has their own 'truth' to add to the mix.
good luck in your search.

 

[Sir]

you say you are firm in your belief in spite of mine. i suggest we can both have our beliefs alongside one another.
you disagree. you go on to say something about finding the one truth, but we aren't talking about truth here, we are talking about how each of us deals with forgiveness and our reasons for doing things the way we do.

No, no, no. I think you misread my post.. look where I said:

So I am firm in what I believe to be the truth but I am firm in the belief that you have every right to remain firm in your own belief.

and that was in response to:

would it be more accurate then to say you remain firm in your belief alongside my own?

and what I got from this was that you expected me to accept both beliefs with the same firmness, which I can't do, because if I did, then I really wouldn't have any principles of my own.

i found this very confusing.
you are seeking the one real truth no matter how many times you have to change it? change what? the truth? how you see the truth? what you believe is the truth?
if you are openminded as you say then you would have no trouble agreeing to have a belief system alongside someone else whose ideas differ from yours. i would never challenge the way another dealt with something as personal as forgiveness. it's only important that they experience it in a way that is meaningful and healthy for them.
in any case forgiveness has no hard and real 'truth'. it is subjective, it is an experience, not a fact. and everyone has their own 'truth' to add to the mix.
good luck in your search.

You're right, I wasn't very clear in my diction there, therefore, I'll rephrase it.

So I am seeking the one real truth, no matter how many times I have to change my beliefs. I am just open minded and have to accept that what you perceive as forgiveness is different from what I perceive as forgiveness. So I am firm in what I believe to be the truth but I am firm in the belief that you have every right to remain firm in your own belief. I just am not changing mine to yours because I feel more firm in my belief than your belief.

I can be very bad at communicating my ideas over text, sorry. I was also very loose with the word "truth". I'm just seeking to find what makes the most sense. And I'm trying to read a lot more philosophy and am taking a class in philosophy to do so.

 

[JGirl]

No, no, no. I think you misread my post.. look where I said:



You're right, I wasn't very clear in my diction there, therefore, I'll rephrase it.

So I am seeking the one real truth, no matter how many times I have to change my beliefs. I am just open minded and have to accept that what you perceive as forgiveness is different from what I perceive as forgiveness. So I am firm in what I believe to be the truth but I am firm in the belief that you have every right to remain firm in your own belief. I just am not changing mine to yours because I feel more firm in my belief than your belief.

I can be very bad at communicating my ideas over text, sorry.

ok that makes more sense.
and no, i would not try to change yours or anyone else's view on how to heal or how to forgive.
that's a very personal journey.

 

[Sir]

ok that makes more sense.
and no, i would not try to change yours or anyone else's view on how to heal or how to forgive.
that's a very personal journey.

I agree, it is a personal journey.

Also, just so you know, I tend to go back and edit my posts several times in a row in order to clarify, so I won't double post, and people tend to miss these edits because I do it quite slowly.

 

[knight in battle]

I apologize if cursing is seen as naive and ignorant around here

Wish I could forgive you.

 

[GracieRuth]

My counselor wants me to forgive the people who have hurt me most recently. I just want to get away from the friends who have violated me emotionally. I feel like a loser with nothing more to give to that friend, as if that friendship was worthless. Maybe I don't want to forgive because forgiveness means I might have to start hanging out with him again. Maybe it means I can move on and be at peace. I don't know. Whatever it is, I'd rather not bother with it right now. Does forgiveness mean I'm wrong, too?

We actually use the word "forgiveness" to refer to two very different things.
1. The most basic usage of "forgiveness" refers to letting go of the need for justice. We do this most commonly with small slights, which happen all the time in relationships. Just forget about it.
2. The second is something more significant: reconciliation. For reconcilation to be a possibility you need the following elements:

• The injustice needs to be a major betrayal
• The offending party needs to first LISTEN to the one they have wronged
• The offending party needs to UNDERSTAND how what they did hurt the other
• The offending party needs to HURT knowing they have hurt the other
• The offending party needs to ask forgiveness and do whatever they can to remedy the situation, such as repay the debt, or try to tell the truth to those they lied to, etc (This part is called repentance).
• The offending party needs to take a humble stance, knowing that it will take TIME for the injured party to trust them again.

If any of the elements above have NOT occurred, then there simply is no reconciliation. It's not a slam against someone for "not forgiving." It's simply a statement of fact.

So what can you do if someone betrays you, but refuses to reconcile. Perhaps they simply insist that it was no big deal and you should just "get over it." What can you do? There are two options:
1. You can hold on to your need for justice, and allow it to eat you alive.
2. You can let go of your need for justice, yet realize no reconciliation has occurred. In this case, you don't continue being friends, but at the same time, you aren't losing sleep at night thinking, "How could they do that to me?" You simply tell yourself, "They wronged me, but I'm not going to continue to allow them to harm me. I won't put myself into a vulnerable position with them again, but I'm also not going to think about it anymore. Let dead dogs lie."

I owe this clarity to a book I read long ago, a kind of primer of forgiveness, called "How could you do this to me?" by Greer and Rosen
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0385490119/?tag=infjs-20
The insight for me was learning how I didn't have to continue to be friends with betrayers. Of course, reading the book doesn't take away the pain. That just takes time.

 

[CAptain]

(Forgiveness and what it means to me) I learn from the past, but I don

 

[Radiantshadow]

Self-interest is why I forgive. Holding on to bitterness helps neither myself nor those I interact with.

Negativity is like Pan the trickster god: it will dally with your emotions, tease your sense of moral appeal, and leave you crying when the day is done. Learn what you can from what happens, resolve and detach, then move on before you get lost in yourself.

 

[invisible]

i dont ever! and i never forget! fuck with me once and youll never fuck with me again! no forgiveness, noooo mercy!!

 

[grt$5vb]

Forgiveness has nothing to do with the offending party. You can let the negative emotions control you, or you can release them.

I forgive because the Father has forgiven me, and I am greatly humbled by this.

 

[invisible]

i dont forgive for selfish reasons too! because like DoveAlexa, i am driven by the power of rage and hatred, it gives me superhuman strength to achieve extraordinary feats! no forgiveness, noooo mercy!!!!!