Veganism? | Page 4 | INFJ Forum

Veganism?

Back to the health benefits of a vegetarian diet for humans. It's been proven that avoiding eating meat can increase life expectancy. It lowers your risk of heart disease, certain cancers, diabetes, osteoporosis and cholestorol. So claiming that we need meat in our diet in order to be healthy is a complete falacy. I'm going to try and find studies that show what a SAD diet (standard American diet) does to your health. It showed that most obese people were actually malnourished! Even though they eat plenty, all the food they do eat including a large quantity of meat contains very little nutrients.
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Before I piss off the people I admire most on this site, I want to make clear that I am in no way advocating you change your choices. I am dealing with the above quote based on the arguements presented, that meat shortens life expentacy, and eating it in order to be healthy is a complete falacy.
My intent is to provide evidence to the contrary to the statements, not that a vegetarian diet is inferior to an omnivorious diet.

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All proteins are combinations of 22 amino acids. Eight of these acids are called ‘essential’ for humans due to the fact that our bodies cannot manufacture them. Now, when all of these essential acids are present in our diets the body can synthesize the rest of the non-essential nutrients, but if the bodies supplies are low or depleted, synthesizing of those other proteins ceases…..Even if overall protein intake is high.

When protein is lacking in the diet, it leads to an acid or alkaline imbalance in the blood and tissue. This imbalance is often found in vegetarian diets. Animal meat is our only source for COMPLETE proteins. As in, you can get the proteins you need from a vegetarian diet, however you need to eat a wide variety, and a LOT of veggies to get the same benefit as say, a serving of liver of beef.

As for Dr. Weston Price studies ‘primitive’ peoples, Price found that the groups who diets consisted mainly of grains and legumes were in fact far healthier than civilized moderns BUT they had more incidences of caries (dental decay) than those living primarily on meat and fish. Skulls of prehistoric people subsisting mainly on grains and legumes also show lots of evidence of abscesses, tuberculosis, and bone problems as well. (Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1980, 32:2:70-71)

A more recent study by Dr. Emmanuel Cheraskin observed 1040 dentists and their wives. (Cheraskin, E, et al, Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry, 1978, 7:150-155) Since these are people who KNOW how to take care of their own teeth, I think any stipulation of ‘they don’t know any better’ can’t hold water. Anyhow, those who had to fewest issues were also the ones who ate the most protein in their diets (as measured by the CMI)

Furthermore, inadequate protein intake leads to loss of the myocardial muscle and may contribute to coronary heart disease. (Webb, J G, et al, Canadian Medical Association Journal, Oct 1, 1986 135:7:753-8)

Additionally, protein cannot be properly utilized without dietary fats. This is why fat and protein occur together in eggs, milk, fish and meat. A high protein low, fat diet (atkins anyone?) can cause too rapid growth in adolescents and the depletion of the bodies vitamin A and D reserves.

As for the claim that meat shortens life spans; I beg you to look up the Russians from the Caucasus Mountains who consume lots of fatty meat and whole milk products. Studies of Soviet Georgian populations have shown that those who eat the most meat also have the longest life spans. (Pitskhelauri, G Z, MD, The longest Living of Soviet Georgia, 1982, Human Sciences Press, New York, NY) Same was shown for the inhabitants of Vilacabama in Equador who eat a variety of animal food as well as whole milk and fatty pork or the people of Hunza who eat protein in the form of high-fat goat milk products. On the other side of the world, the vegetarian dieters of southern India have one of the shortest life spans in the world (Abrams, H Leon, Journal of Applies Nutrition, 1980, 32:2:70-71).

Not only is it difficult to replace all the necessary proteins in a mostly vegetarian diet, but several important minerals are lacking as well. Mainly due to the catalysts present in the fat-soluble proteins. Additionally, phylates found in improperly processed grains blocks absorption of calcium, iron, zinc, copper, and magnesium. Zinc, Iron, calcium and mineral from animal sources are far easier for the body to absorb.

B 12- Diseases resulting from a depletion of B12 include pernicious anemia, impaired eyesight, panic attacks, schizophrenia, hallucinations and nervous disorders. B12 deficiencies have been found in the breast-fed infants of strictly vegetarian mothers (Nutrition Reviews,1979, 37:142-144)

While your studies are going to show that the SAD is indeed unhealthy, it is not because eating meat is unhealthy. It is due to other factors. The intake of sugar, processed food, saturated fat, the lack of nutrients in processed food, Preservatives, additives, fructose, fertilizers and pesticides used in agriculture. The SAD is a generalization of what Americans are eating today, not what they SHOULD be eating. There is a big difference in the two.
 
Are you kidding? Chickens are pumped full of estrogen so that 11 year old girls are getting large tits.

Not in a hormone way. I didn't clarify that; my apologies. Red meat is more difficult for a female's metabolism to process VS a male. Lean meats such as chicken is a lot easier for our bodies to burn off. That is the source of that remark.
 
Alcyone... :hail:

Beautifully presented; excellently supported. It also lends ties to the physiology of carnivores argument earlier.
 
Are you kidding? Chickens are pumped full of estrogen so that 11 year old girls are getting large tits.

I missed this earlier. It isn't just chickens, either. It's most mainstream dairy, at least in the US, where rBGH (recombinant Bovine Growth Hormones) are used unless clearly labeled otherwise.
Why is American Milk Banned in Europe?

  • American dairy milk is genetically-modified unless it’s labeled “NO rBGH”
  • Genetically-engineered bovine growth hormone (rBGH) in milk increases cancer risks.
American dairy farmers inject rBGH to dairy cows to increase milk production.



European nations and Canada have banned rBGH to protect citizens from IGF-1 hazards.
Monsanto Co., the manufacturer of rBGH, has influenced U. S. product safety laws permitting the sale of unlabeled rBGH milk. (Monsanto would lose billions of dollars if rBGH were banned in America.)


Q. Is there any milk not contaminated with rBGH and IGF-1?
A. Yes. Milk that is clearly labeled “NO rBGH” is free of rBGH and does not contain excess levels of IGF-1.


Q. What about cheeses?
A. American-made cheeses are contaminated with rBGH and excess levels of IGF-1 unless they’re labeled “NO rBGH”. Imported European cheeses are safe since Europe has banned rBGH.

Then calculate in the hormones and antibiotic load (leading to antibiotic resistant bacteria) commonly used in beef farming and you've got a glimpse at the mere tip of the iceburg of one helluva toxic food chain.
 
I missed this earlier. It isn't just chickens, either. It's most mainstream dairy, at least in the US, where rBGH (recombinant Bovine Growth Hormones) are used unless clearly labeled otherwise.


Then calculate in the hormones and antibiotic load (leading to antibiotic resistant bacteria) commonly used in beef farming and you've got a glimpse at the mere tip of the iceburg of one helluva toxic food chain.

It is also in the food chain in its entirety. The excess hormones from birth control pills that are in the food chain, ground water, as well as added to the critters we eat and get milk from increase the natural levels in us resulting in early puberty and an increase in the birth ratio of females to males. As well as leading to mammary development in males and the associated cancers thereof.
 
I am personally quite guilty of throwing this thread off topic several times, so I thought I'd do the OP courtesy of bumping the original post to the top since I realized I had never actually read it!

I think most of the points have been discussed in a sort of meandering way. But as far as my own on-topic responses go:


Veganism? [SIZE=Default] (I don't have a lot of time to post, i'm leaving soon)

Just a few points I don't get about Veganism.

1:Since when has it been ethically immoral to kill animals (Don't plants have feelings to? :p)

2: I'm all for having a more environmentally friendly diet (bugs and such) and yet, most vegans, seem to swear off all forms of meat

3: I was watching a program on current_ and this women stated that her child was smarter than the rest of the other children because her child was a vegan (I know most of this comment is just mom's pride and such, but still) anything true to this?

Ehrm, there's other stuff that I think you guys might bring up in the long run, so merry christmas to all.
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1. I don't think we can resolve the ethics question fully. We often try; we seldom do.
2. As I understand it, Vegans not only don't consume meat, they don't consume any animal products at all (dairy, eggs, etc.) or wear any articles produced from animals (i.e. leather, wool).

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]A vegan (pronounced VEE-gun) is someone who, for various reasons, chooses to avoid using or consuming animal products. While vegetarians choose not to use flesh foods, vegans also avoid dairy and eggs, as well as fur, leather, wool, down, and cosmetics or chemical products tested on animals.
http://www.vegan.org/about_veganism/index.html
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3. I would lift an eyebrow and immediately dismiss serious consideration of the opinions of any woman who would come right out and state publicly that her child was "smarter than all the other children" whether her belief is based in diet, religion, race, creed, whatever. Who even knows if she's constructing the necessary proteins for her growing child (thank you, Alcyone!)? So many people seem oblivious to the chemistry of nutritional needs.

So, bottom line for me is that Veganism seems to me to be an "extreme" lifestyle and so, no. I don't get it. I don't think extremes are ever the optimal way to live and certainly not the optimal way to raise a child.
 
(I don't have a lot of time to post, i'm leaving soon)

Just a few points I don't get about Veganism.

1:Since when has it been ethically immoral to kill animals (Don't plants have feelings to? :p)

2: I'm all for having a more environmentally friendly diet (bugs and such) and yet, most vegans, seem to swear off all forms of meat

3: I was watching a program on current_ and this women stated that her child was smarter than the rest of the other children because her child was a vegan (I know most of this comment is just mom's pride and such, but still) anything true to this?

Ehrm, there's other stuff that I think you guys might bring up in the long run, so merry christmas to all.

*hangs head in shame*

I guess I am just as guilty of derailing this thread as Zen.

1) It can be immoral to kill animals. Depends in the reason and motivation for the kill as well as the manner of the kill.

2)Yeah, but there are draw backs to that.

3)Sounds to me like some sort of uneducated proseltyzing. Let her log into the forums and me and her can start a nice little discussion regarding the long term effect of veganism on developing humans.
 
I have to admit, I took part in my fair share of rabbit trails in this thread. nenyway, care to explain in further detail, about the effects of veganism (and maybe vegetarianism) on developing humans
 
I have to admit, I took part in my fair share of rabbit trails in this thread. nenyway, care to explain in further detail, about the effects of veganism (and maybe vegetarianism) on developing humans

Give me a bit of study time, I'll have to crack out my nutritional texts, and I will expound on the effects of malnutrition on the developing human. I don't want to come across as having a stance that is anti-vegan/vegetarian...However I want to make clear that such a dieting decision made without ALL the appropriate knowledge of the bodys nutritional needs as well as the knowledge of how to provide for those needs is IMO tantamount to child neglect and abuse.
 
I also looked into posting some texts here but quite frankly, Veganism seems so much like an extreme religion to me that I became dispirited.

Suffice it to say that I sincerely doubt that all Vegans take the time to understand the principles and needs of human nutrition, particularly on developing fetuses and children. It's true that there are just as many parents with mainstream dietary habits that are contributing to poor health in their children, too, but denying a growing fetus and/or child protein and B vitamins is certainly not an improvement.

I am also wary of the strong dependence on soy which seems to be a part of the Vegan lifestyle. Close to 90% of the soy grown in the US is genetically modified, and we in the west do not always consume soy prepared as it was traditionally in the East (using fermentation).
 
Me three as a thread derailer...but I love discussing nutrition. It's one of my biggest passions.

And I loved your quotes, Alcyone! I think Dr. Price was the person I was thinking of earlier. Maybe it was the 1950s or so - but I remember that study with teeth and how it compared to food...I'll have to look for it elsewhere.

Oh, I do have a teeeeny tiny quibble: The Atkins diet is not low fat. It can be made low fat, but it doesn't advocate high protein/low fat. It's often demoralized as too high in fat by many in the American Medical Association. Funny enough, though, lowering the carbohydrates in ones diet while keeping everything else the same often creates healthier results for many people (lower bad cholesterol, higher good cholesterol numbers, weight loss, lower blood sugar, etc).

But I'll stop now. Derailment over!
 
Before I piss off the people I admire most on this site, I want to make clear that I am in no way advocating you change your choices. I am dealing with the above quote based on the arguements presented, that meat shortens life expentacy, and eating it in order to be healthy is a complete falacy.
My intent is to provide evidence to the contrary to the statements, not that a vegetarian diet is inferior to an omnivorious diet.

Your post isn't offensive and honestly I think the deficiencies that can be experienced from not eating meat is one of the most important thing a vegetarian should be well aware of. I've also never heard that meat shortens life expectancy before.

One of the main reasons I wouldn’t attempt to convince anyone of cutting meat out of their diet is because if you are not diligent with your diet there will be imbalances, eating meat keeps things easy for those who want to take shortcuts. Low iron is what has negatively affected me the most and I’ve learnt the hard way what I have to do to keep the balance.

This is what I believe;

While your studies are going to show that the SAD is indeed unhealthy, it is not because eating meat is unhealthy. It is due to other factors. The intake of sugar, processed food, saturated fat, the lack of nutrients in processed food, Preservatives, additives, fructose, fertilizers and pesticides used in agriculture. The SAD is a generalization of what Americans are eating today, not what they SHOULD be eating. There is a big difference in the two.

So many people do not eat healthy in places like America and Australia, people are overweight but lacking in basic minerals as most diets are not balanced and as such unhealthy regardless of meat. What I have noticed in my own experiences is vegetarians/vegans tend to eat healthier than their peers as they are aware they are missing out on some easily obtained minerals by not eating meat and often the bad choices others make are not suitable. For example, my friends will think nothing about dining on fast food whenever they desire, we all know that does nothing but quench hunger, there’s little other value in the food, as I can’t eat your average burger I’ll think about my choices more and generally find something that is good for me. I personally find some vegans and raw fooders take things too far but as they make these extreme choices they do learn about deficiencies.

My stance, I like cheese, I mean I really, really like cheese *gromit grin* so I'll never be vegan but I am healthier now as a vegetarian than I believe I would have been if I kept eating meat as a teen as I've been forced to learn about healthy diets.

I also looked into posting some texts here but quite frankly, Veganism seems so much like an extreme religion to me that I became dispirited.

I somewhat agree, I've known people both irl and through my self-education who take it way too far and find it a little scary, too far as in no one can enter their house if they have leather shoes etc. My step-sister is heading down the raw-food path and while I greatly respect her strong moral principles I find it scary, she has a network of friends who have the same beliefs I find they are not open to other perspectives. She does however educate herself on her needs and is a qualified nurse so I'm sure she's being as sensible as she knows how to be. Still I find it extreme.

Suffice it to say that I sincerely doubt that all Vegans take the time to understand the principles and needs of human nutrition, particularly on developing fetuses and children. It's true that there are just as many parents with mainstream dietary habits that are contributing to poor health in their children, too, but denying a growing fetus and/or child protein and B vitamins is certainly not an improvement.

That is scary and I'm sure there are parents out there making poor choices for their children, like you say though mainstream diets can be detrimental too. Seems we can't force people to educate themselves on the needs of their children.

I am also wary of the strong dependence on soy which seems to be a part of the Vegan lifestyle. Close to 90% of the soy grown in the US is genetically modified, and we in the west do not always consume soy prepared as it was traditionally in the East (using fermentation).

Oh hell yes!

Fermented soy; Awesome, brilliant, live off it.
Unfermented soy; Not awesome, not brilliant, be moderate and do not live off it.
 
My stance, I like cheese, I mean I really, really like cheese *gromit grin*

+++ 1 (Stilton, Gromit?)

But after what ZC posted about rBGH in US produced cheese I'm now officially SCARED. I'll do my best to find European cheeses, but I don't know if I'll be able to keep up my cheese habit at import prices...

:m119:
 
+++ 1 (Stilton, Gromit?)

But after what ZC posted about rBGH in US produced cheese I'm now officially SCARED. I'll do my best to find European cheeses, but I don't know if I'll be able to keep up my cheese habit at import prices...

:m119:

Not sure where you are, Dylan, but Trader Joes carries a large selection of Non-rBGH cheeses at VERY reasonable prices, as will any health food store.

If in doubt, buy all dairy products Organic and you'll be safe. At my local grocery store organic butter is now only about $.30 more a pound than traditional butter. Organic milk is still at least $1.00/gallon more, but I have a growing child here so I'm not negotiable on the subject.

I can't stress it enough to everyone... READ labels!
 
For a veeeery short time, one major cheese/dairy manufacturer claimed their milk and cheese products contained no growth hormones. But I haven't seen that ad for a while, so...

Yeah. Stick to the organic section at your local supermarket, or better yet, visit your local HFS (Health food store)!
 
Not sure where you are, Dylan, but Trader Joes carries a large selection of Non-rBGH cheeses at VERY reasonable prices, as will any health food store.

Arrgh! Trader Joe's! Where I used to live there was a Trader Joe's only a couple miles away, and I loved shopping there, but now, there isn't even one in my state. Ahh, I miss it so...

There is a Whole Foods near me, but they're $$$. I'll be looking though, for sure.
 
Arrgh! Trader Joe's! Where I used to live there was a Trader Joe's only a couple miles away, and I loved shopping there, but now, there isn't even one in my state. Ahh, I miss it so...

There is a Whole Foods near me, but they're $$$. I'll be looking though, for sure.

They just built one here last year, about 2 miles from my house. Fingers crossed you get one too. Thriftiest Organic you can get, methinks. In the meantime, Cabot Dairy assured me (when I called them, when I lived in the NE) that they do not use rBGH in any of their products (cheese, butter, sour cream, etc.) and are not a factory farm, so that's what I used when I couldn't afford organic/health food store.

END HIJACK!

Edit: Misread your location, thought it said northeast. Anyway, I can get Cabot here in NC, so maybe you can too.
 
Oh, man. I miss TJ's. Most especially the sun dried tomato and pesto torte and the Three Buck Chuck.

You can't even blind yourself on wood grain alcohol in Alaska on $3.
 
Superbump

I got a question, human brains grew so large due to the fact that we ate a lot of meat; at least this is sited by a lot of people who think vegetarianism/veganism isn't healthy. Since we have better access to a variety of vegetables and other foods, does that particular fact matter now?
 
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Wasn't the difference in brain size related to the development and application of tools? Bigger brains led to better tools, which led to better survival rates of the 'advanced' sapians...leading to increased brain sizes.....

I think that the more primitive structures of our brains have remained roughly the same size though. It's the frontal lobes that have enlarged.