[PUG] Unhealthy INFJs Cannot Freely Tolerate Public Opinion

[InvisibleJim]

Two words: Inferior Te

Now we are getting somewhere...

Wouldn't inferior Te be Fi lead? IxFP?

 

[88chaz88]

All I know is Fe comes with a "you're with us or against us" attitude. This appears to be proof of that.

Whether or not this comes down to tolerating public opinion or not is another matter.

 

[InvisibleJim]

All I know is Fe comes with a "you're with us or against us" attitude. This appears to be proof of that.

I've always been baffled by individuals who can't keep friendships and rivalries to themselves and instead attempt to influence groups into hostility towards those they dislike and similarly via. the same methods to forward the interest of their friends.

Is this some kind of collusive protection racket where they simply refuse to acknowledge their biases in attempt to appear that they are not doing so?

Do tell me more and the cognitive basis of it or if you consider that to not be a route worth considering?

 

[88chaz88]

Do tell me more and the cognitive basis of it or if you consider that to not be a route worth considering?

I just read somewhere that Fe comes with an "us vs. them" attitude. Especially when it's not well developed. INFJ's are no stranger to this even if it's a problem that plagues the INTP and ESTP more (not sure if there's a pattern there).

I've never delved in to why this happens as I don't like to focus on a negative aspect of a person that deeply, but I've seen so much proof of it I've kinda taken it as read. You only need to read the "welcome message" of INTPc to find evidence of this.

Welcome to INTP Central, a place for INTPs. For those of you who aren't INTPs, please do us all a favor and check out our sister site, Typology Central.

 

[Zero Angel]

I've always been baffled by individuals who can't keep friendships and rivalries to themselves and instead attempt to influence groups into hostility towards those they dislike and similarly via. the same methods to forward the interest of their friends.

The whole idea of community and friendship if not of physical location is that of shared values. If a community or other group does not share your values then you can try to change it or simply leave it. However do not be surprised if only a few people follow you.

I've always been baffled by individuals who can't keep friendships and rivalries to themselves and instead attempt to influence groups into hostility towards those they dislike and similarly via. the same methods to forward the interest of their friends.

Is this some kind of collusive protection racket where they simply refuse to acknowledge their biases in attempt to appear that they are not doing so?

Do tell me more and the cognitive basis of it or if you consider that to not be a route worth considering?
groups into hostility towards those they dislike and similarly via. the same methods to forward the interest of their friends.

Is this some kind of collusive protection racket where they simply refuse to acknowledge their biases in attempt to appear that they are not doing so?

Do tell me more and the cognitive basis of it or if you consider that to not be a route worth considering?

All communities develop biases all the time towards and against its members. I would not be surprised if INTJ forums (as a random example), for all its talk of objectivity had developed a community structure where certain members, ideas, or traditions were protected whereas others were not.

That said, (most) people tend to develop bonds with others over time. If someone develops a good reputation in the community then the members of the community will have a higher level of trust towards them; be less likely to attack that person, and more likely to defend that person. In an Fe sense 'they cast their lot in'.

In sum, while its difficult for a community to maintain total objectivity towards all of its subjects, it can be important for that community to try.

 

[shafishstix]

I've always been baffled by individuals who can't keep friendships and rivalries to themselves and instead attempt to influence groups into hostility towards those they dislike and similarly via. the same methods to forward the interest of their friends.

Well personally i can tell you i dont do that and frankly people who do irritate me. As for "feelings" interrupting/impairing cognition, sure that can easily be true but then again we arent always switched on that way. For me personally it depends upon the circumstances how i react. Sometimes i can be very cerebral. I think to typify the majority INFJ's like that is limiting yourself.

 

[Arsal]

All I know is Fe comes with a "you're with us or against us" attitude. This appears to be proof of that.

Whether or not this comes down to tolerating public opinion or not is another matter.

Fe-types are drawn towards harmonizing. It's more like "you're with us, or do I have to coyly manipulate you into being with us?" attitude. What you're describing is more akin to Te.

Also, +1 on the unfolding InvisibleJim and IndigoSensor drama. *grabs popcorn*

EDIT: Oh, you meant something else. Nevermind then.

 

[Zero Angel]

Fe-types are drawn towards harmonizing. It's more like "you're with us, or do I have to coyly manipulate you into being with us?" attitude.

Yes. Fe as a function attitude can definitely do this. I can think of many times when I have camouflaged my own true intent or feelings in order to preserve harmony, win allies, or accomplish an objective with the least amount of blood shed. Fe types seem to be more inherently skilled at using these kinds of tactics and they do not always realize when they are doing it.

From a Te perspective this can be quite senseless and probably even violates their core principles -- however lets analogize it to a war between the countries of Te and Fe -- and compare it to a Te tactic which may be of a higher brute force value. If Te fought a war with Fe, Fe might employ spies to spies to spread rumors and disrupt the state, winning defections of key officers, reducing morale and producing effects which are incalculable whereas a more Te oriented strategy would seem to pit strength against strength using a solid logistic and strategic route 'using the solid to strike the empty'. The Fe method may seem underhanded, but it may also result in the least amount of casualties overall.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Yes. Fe as a function attitude can definitely do this. I can think of many times when I have camouflaged my own true intent or feelings in order to preserve harmony, win allies, or accomplish an objective with the least amount of blood shed. Fe types seem to be more inherently skilled at using these kinds of tactics and they do not always realize when they are doing it.

Are you saying that Fe is manipulative by presenting different viewpoints and 'harmony' than what the user actually thinks in order to execute his or her objectives?

This statement reminded me of Kalach: 'Studies suggest that 8/10 things said by Ne is not believed by the speaker.' Subtle (yes) but is there a functional overlap here or loose archetypal definition?

How closely are Ne and Fe linked? i.e. Is Ne capable of presenting not believed arguments simply to perceive the results whereas Fe is capable of manipulating said argument to obtain objectives?

Does Ni give Fe a route that is drawing ones own conclusions then manipulating what is presented to obtain the objectives of those conclusions; including by attacking the right of others to have their own opinion or analysis?

 

[Zero Angel]

I hope you will re-read my previous post, as I added another paragraph.

Are you saying that Fe is manipulative by presenting different viewpoints and 'harmony' than what the user actually thinks in order to execute his or her objectives?

Not entirely clear what you mean by this

This statement reminded me of Kalach: 'Studies suggest that 8/10 things said by Ne is not believed by the speaker.' Subtle (yes) but is there a functional overlap here or loose archetypal definition?

How closely are Ne and Fe linked? i.e. Is Ne capable of presenting not believed arguments simply to perceive the results whereas Fe is capable of manipulating said argument to obtain objectives?

I'm not sure how much of a functional overlap there is. Ne (like Se) is more of a 'probing' type function, to me it outputs data and then listens for the reply; sort of like putting your keys in a bunch of doors and finding out which ones get unlocked. It has fairly good synergy with Fe I suppose but the judgement axis would be more likely to determine through logical means which key looks right for what door, so judgement would have a way of refining the perception of Ne.

Does Ni give Fe a route that is drawing ones own conclusions then manipulating what is presented to obtain the objectives of those conclusions; including by attacking the right of others to have their own opinion or analysis?

Well the attacking part is probably more of a judgement oriented thing than anything. What Ni would do is mentally try the keys on the doors instead of actually trying them. From then it would be then be able to predict the results of putting keys in the doors instead of actually letting it be known to others that they are trying out the keys by visibly doing it.

There are of course disadvantages to running an Ni-like simulation and that is that in order for that simulation to be accurate, the Ni user needs to have the right data/facts. If he has the wrong data or is missing key information then the results of the simulation can be wonky and inaccurate. I think in this case he would be more likely to fall back to his Fe standby on 'what is important to me and the values of the group/idea that I have embraced?', a Te type might fall back to 'what is important to me and my own personal values?'. I think it would be fallacious to assign the label of 'good approach' and 'bad approach' to either one of them without putting them into the context of something as they both have their advantages.

 

[Trifoilum]

Yes. Fe as a function attitude can definitely do this. I can think of many times when I have camouflaged my own true intent or feelings in order to preserve harmony, win allies, or accomplish an objective with the least amount of blood shed. Fe types seem to be more inherently skilled at using these kinds of tactics and they do not always realize when they are doing it.

From a Te perspective this can be quite senseless and probably even violates their core principles -- however lets analogize it to a war between the countries of Te and Fe -- and compare it to a Te tactic which may be of a higher brute force value. If Te fought a war with Fe, Fe might employ spies to spies to spread rumors and disrupt the state, winning defections of key officers, reducing morale and producing effects which are incalculable whereas a more Te oriented strategy would seem to pit strength against strength using a solid logistic and strategic route 'using the solid to strike the empty'. The Fe method may seem underhanded, but it may also result in the least amount of casualties overall.

Fe-oriented battlefield is court politics. Te-oriented battlefield is war strategies.

@InvisibleJim; your last post is starting to make little sense. Can you simplify it more, or there's a reason for your highly specific vocabulary?

 

[detectivepope]

I have noted that is a tendancy for some of the INFJs I know to be unable to accept that people both have a right to their own opinion and a right to voice that as they so choose.

Is this Fe run wild or just some other unhealthy INFJ behaviour from an unhealthy INFJ?



The mind does boggle.

What right? where is this a natural governed standard? Just as people have the right to opinion so does the infj's right to have the opinion that others are wrong in some way (even if its the extreme of public opinion). It is only how it effects them (the individual infj) that there can be a detrament otherwise its others imposing standards. I have a strong opinion on this as I hate been constantly told to basically 'fall in line' with public opinion just because its a majority even though it may not be based on logic but sensation emotional respones (e.g. fairity in law courses).

 

[InvisibleJim]

@InvisibleJim; your last post is starting to make little sense. Can you simplify it more, or there's a reason for your highly specific vocabulary?

I'm afraid I can't do that. The specificity is to guarantee self preservation from misquotation; I am also have information that others are watching this thread intently which may not be clear to most of the contributors who these benefactors are or why.

In addition, there is the double benefit that the wider the remit of the question the more informative the answer.

 

[acd]

@Orion

Now we are getting somewhere...

Wouldn't inferior Te be Fi lead? IxFP?

He's trying to be clever and say that only INFPs can be so twisted...

And when INFJs go bad--it's a mental cruelty they inflict...
They're very good at appearing the wounded hero while exercising the worst sort of emotional manipulation with a dogged endurance.
Twisted INFP can be like that too... but INFJ are better at it. INFJs go cold and calculating.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Fe attempts to gain followers through manipulation as a sort of confirmation -- if you are having a conflict and standing alone in it, that usually means it's "you against so-and-so." In the mind of a Fe user, that is often perceived as "you against everyone," since the lack of approval can be taken as a lack of satisfaction, or in some cases outright disapproval. This sort of thing is totally against what Fe stands for. So, the natural impulse would be to gain supporters or, rather, gain something to protect. If you have a group that you are fighting for, then you are protecting the interests of the individuals and are gaining a sort of confirmation that your stance is purposeful, justified, and possibly helpful to someone.

Te is a little different than that. A Te user will gain followers to gain power; there is strength in numbers. There are more ways to sabotage, more ways to get to the final goal. Te tends to be a little more brutal and a little more upfront with its intentions as well.

Both are manipulative. The problem with an Fe user that gets deep in this cycle, though, is that they will often convince themselves that they are not actually doing this, that they are justified and righteous in their actions. This is why xxFJs can be so cutthroat sometimes. Some say that Hitler was an xNFJ, and I wouldn't be surprised, given that he believed what he was doing actually was in the best interests of the German people.

 

[Zero Angel]

Aye, Gloomy. You hit the mark right there.

I'm afraid I can't do that. The specificity is to guarantee self preservation from misquotation; I am also have information that others are watching this thread intently which may not be clear to most of the contributors who these benefactors are or why.

I like how you italicise the word benefactors, it all sounds very cloak and daggery.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I like how you italicise the word benefactors, it all sounds very cloak and daggery.

Hot, no?

Ni-Te makes everything sound wonderful... or so I'm regularly told. Rainbows and susurration everywhere.

 

[whytiger]

My Fe is telling me this thread will be found provoking by some.


I would agree that some INFJs do tend to have this problem just
as anyone from any type can though I can see the relation to Fe.


This usually only happens when I am really mad. I once tried to
talk to some INTPs about how this person tried to kill themselves
by jumping off of a seven story building and he lived and this
one male in particular tried to tell me that he didn't want to kill
himself if he didn't succeed. I refused to accept this notion because
people try to do things they want all the time and fail. He made
me really mad with his arguments and I took it personally.
Then he wouldn't listen to me, and oh boy, is that the wrong
thing to do. Do not expect me to respect and listen to you
if you are unwilling to do so. It will be like trying to persuade
a brick wall.

INTPs often get it into their heads that just because they think the world should work a certain way it does work that way and the only reason it does not appear to work that way is because there is some hidden variable mucking up their theory. So they'd rather change the facts than the theory.

It's also possible that INTPs are so good at killing themselves successfully they can't imagine how anyone could fail .

 

[bickelz]

I have noted that is a tendancy for some of the INFJs I know to be unable to accept that people both have a right to their own opinion and a right to voice that as they so choose.

Is this Fe run wild or just some other unhealthy INFJ behaviour from an unhealthy INFJ?



The mind does boggle.

Well as stated above by many, this isn't just an infj thing but I do this to some people. I am getting better at it but people don't realize that I take in all sides to an argument before making a decision about how I feel about a subject. If they offer up a perspective I have not thought of, I will consider it.

I don't like it when people try to force their opinions on you though. If they do it to me, I do it right back, even if they don't realize they're doing it.

 

[Orion]

The problem with an Fe user that gets deep in this cycle, though, is that they will often convince themselves that they are not actually doing this, that they are justified and righteous in their actions. This is why xxFJs can be so cutthroat sometimes.

I agree with this because I have experienced in myself many times before.

..But it doesn't come from manipulation or ill intent- in fact- I am so bent on doing the right thing that it actually makes me end up treating people badly sometimes. The irony of Fe can be really tormenting to me. I can end up hating myself for just trying to do what i perceive to be the right thing.

I think my enneagram has a lot to do with it: 1w2. Though I don't know much about enneagram.

With further irony it may be Ti that ends up telling me that I am derailing from my original intentions.

Some say that Hitler was an xNFJ, and I wouldn't be surprised, given that he believed what he was doing actually was in the best interests of the German people.

The INFJ Hitler syndrome... indeed.