Ti, Fe, and Coexistence

[JocktheMotie]

Hello. I am an INTP, and as such, my cognitive orientation to nearly everything about my world is dominated by the Ti perspective, and all that entails. When faced with situations that are, shall we say, better navigated with Fe [even this is difficult for me to say], I experience a tremendous amount of mental tension at their incompatibility, and my mind simply refuses to "play along" with what I perceive to be largely unnecessary steps in interaction and general behavior.

I've asked some ENFJs if they experience similar dissonance when faced with the incompatibility of the dominant with the inferior, but their admissions surprised me: they do not. I began to wonder at the nature of this difference, and think it comes to down to this: Ti, being rather exclusionary, reductive, and deconstructive in terms of taking things apart, cannot sacrifice its principles of truth and its picture of reality, it can't take a backseat. Fe, being rather inclusive, harmonious, and perhaps...synthetic[?] naturally seeks to incorporate and bring together: it is quite figuratively trying to expand its arms as wide as possible to give the biggest group hug it can manage. So I thought the very nature of the two functions, and their contrast, lead to the Ti user who cannot reconcile easily vs. the Fe user who can.

Now, INFJs have these functions less opposed to each other, and are both moreso at the bidding of Ni, so I am curious as to how these opposing judging functions coexist within your minds.

TLDR version:

How do you experience Fe and Ti together? Do you find them mutually exclusive, and is there some dissonance felt in experiencing them, or perhaps since they are not dominant, they operate in conjunction a bit more easily?

Thank you.

 

[IndigoSensor]

For me they are not mutually exclusive. I experience a sort of frusteration between them though. I actually prefer to try and approach everything from a logical standpoint (and I actually detest logic in its pure form, it makes me gag). There are some situations when I can do this fine. Some types of political issues are like this for me. I will use Ti, break it down, and determine what makes sense to me. I am like this with the issue of immigration (not getting into my opinion on it though, that's for another topic). Other things, I will use Fe purely. Social interactions with people dominates this. I need to socially navigate and incorperate everyone together, and address everyone. Keeping in mind everyone elses ideas thoughts and opinions. There are also times when I use Fe and Ti at the same time. This is a fusion between politics and social interaction if you think about it. I combine the two when I am trying to understand the motives behind people, and how I should react. I determine what is fair, and what is not, based on their intentions, and what the right thing to do. Doing what makes logical sense while still taking their concerns and reactions to heart.

I think INFJ's are able to use Ti, Fe, and both because they are their middle functions. As us to explain examples where we combine Ni and Se in some way then you will have descriptions much like your rift between Ti and Fe. I almost never (if ever), use Se with Ni.

 

[Ecton]

For me it is quite simple. Ti is not limited to logic. It can also consider aesthetics and abstract relationships. The more of those I include in my Ti, the easier time I have with Fe. Of course, I am Fe because of my Ni, which is included to attune to irrational holistics within my Ti. The best way to balance my Ti is to include its own innate logic with the holistic abstractions of Ni and the gut reactions of Fi. Make a Ti that is a nest for both of them.

I'm not sure it is easy to learn to speak Ni any differently than you already do without a lot of work.

So perhaps you can focus on getting touch with internal feelings. For example, the dissonance you feel, if you examine it more closely, probably consists of an entire spectrum of feelings and resonances that are themselves a language. Start putting those in your Ti and see what happens.

My 2 cents.

 

[JocktheMotie]

For me it is quite simple. Ti is not limited to logic. It can also consider aesthetics and abstract relationships. The more of those I include in my Ti, the easier time I have with Fe. Of course, I am Fe because of my Ni, which is included to attune to irrational holistics within my Ti. The best way to balance my Ti is to include its own innate logic with the holistic abstractions of Ni and the gut reactions of Fi. Make a Ti that is a nest for both of them.

I'm not sure it is easy to learn to speak Ni any differently than you already do without a lot of work.

So perhaps you can focus on getting touch with internal feelings. For example, the dissonance you feel, if you examine it more closely, probably consists of an entire spectrum of feelings and resonances that are themselves a language. Start putting those in your Ti and see what happens.

My 2 cents.

For me they are not mutually exclusive. I experience a sort of frusteration between them though. I actually prefer to try and approach everything from a logical standpoint (and I actually detest logic in its pure form, it makes me gag). There are some situations when I can do this fine. Some types of political issues are like this for me. I will use Ti, break it down, and determine what makes sense to me. I am like this with the issue of immigration (not getting into my opinion on it though, that's for another topic). Other things, I will use Fe purely. Social interactions with people dominates this. I need to socially navigate and incorperate everyone together, and address everyone. Keeping in mind everyone elses ideas thoughts and opinions. There are also times when I use Fe and Ti at the same time. This is a fusion between politics and social interaction if you think about it. I combine the two when I am trying to understand the motives behind people, and how I should react. I determine what is fair, and what is not, based on their intentions, and what the right thing to do. Doing what makes logical sense while still taking their concerns and reactions to heart.

I think INFJ's are able to use Ti, Fe, and both because they are their middle functions. As us to explain examples where we combine Ni and Se in some way then you will have descriptions much like your rift between Ti and Fe. I almost never (if ever), use Se with Ni.

Thank you very much for both of your responses, you've helped wonderfully.

 

[That Girl]

How do you experience Fe and Ti together? Do you find them mutually exclusive, and is there some dissonance felt in experiencing them, or perhaps since they are not dominant, they operate in conjunction a bit more easily?
Thank you.

I have this issue with those who are predominantly Fe in the sense that I don't understand them a lot of the time. For me, emotions have to have a reason behind them. If there is no concrete situation that has made the person feel the way they do then I can't wrap my head around it. Sometimes a predominantly Fe person can wake up feeling melancholy for no reason. If they don't have a mental illness (e.g. depression, bipolar, etc.) I can't fathom how they could possibly have gotten to that point.

It sometimes surprises people that I write because I tend to be more analytical in my day to day life. The reason is that when I write I'm not feeling anything. I just let the words flow and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's actually quite strange. I seem to go into a trance that can last for hours. The Ti in me, however, requires revision after revision after revision.

 

[Ecton]

I have this issue with those who are predominantly Fe in the sense that I don't understand them a lot of the time. For me, emotions have to have a reason behind them. If there is no concrete situation that has made the person feel the way they do then I can't wrap my head around it. Sometimes a predominantly Fe person can wake up feeling melancholy for no reason. If they don't have a mental illness (e.g. depression, bipolar, etc.) I can't fathom how they could possibly have gotten to that point.

Interesting.

As you know you constantly use Fi and Fe, just like we all use Ti and Te. Melancholy can manifest for a whole host of reasons not related to any particular function, but instead an inability to meet its needs.

For example, I wake up with an Fi melancholy when the world doesn't feel the way I want it to, usually regarding my own expectations for myself. My INTJ wife wakes up with an Fi melancholy when the world isn't organized the way she wants it to be. I watch her go into that funk, and then I help clean up.

It sometimes surprises people that I write because I tend to be more analytical in my day to day life. The reason is that when I write I'm not feeling anything. I just let the words flow and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's actually quite strange. I seem to go into a trance that can last for hours. The Ti in me, however, requires revision after revision after revision.

That's really interesting. For you, what is the sensation you get when something 'works'? When it doesn't 'work'? I'm curious if it is the same or different than my Ni.

 

[the]

I think every thread topic should have a TL : DR version!

 

[That Girl]

Interesting.
For you, what is the sensation you get when something 'works'? When it doesn't 'work'? I'm curious if it is the same or different than my Ni.

It's nice that you help your wife work things out!


When I find something that works it's because I've read it in my mind a number of times and then out loud. If I like the way it sounds, I keep it. In my poems there has to be a progression, with an answer at the end. I've noticed that INFJs or other Fs look for the overall feel of the poem. They search for the feelings it will evoke in others. I can't do that which is why I believe a lot of my poems are a story about a concrete situation as opposed to simply being about a feeling (e.g. love, happiness, depression, etc.).

When things don't work for me they sound choppy and incomplete. I like to bring everything to a conclusion or at least leading to an answer.

Is this anything like what you see in yourself?

 

[Ecton]

I think so. I'm not a writer, so I don't spend the time to 'get things right'. But if I try, that is what I tend to do. We should probably move this to another thread to avoid a hijack, but I wonder where you motivation to write about an idea comes from?

 

[magister343]

Both verbal intelligence and creativity are strongly associated with a preference for Intuition, not Feeling. Feeling is correlated to good people skills, Thinking correlates with math skills, and Sensing correlated with good physical coordination.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

...Thinking correlates with math skills,...

It correlates with more than just maths skills, perhaps "systems analysis/building" or something like that would cover more of what those functions do?

 

[Satya]

Hello. I am an INTP, and as such, my cognitive orientation to nearly everything about my world is dominated by the Ti perspective, and all that entails. When faced with situations that are, shall we say, better navigated with Fe [even this is difficult for me to say], I experience a tremendous amount of mental tension at their incompatibility, and my mind simply refuses to "play along" with what I perceive to be largely unnecessary steps in interaction and general behavior.

I've asked some ENFJs if they experience similar dissonance when faced with the incompatibility of the dominant with the inferior, but their admissions surprised me: they do not. I began to wonder at the nature of this difference, and think it comes to down to this: Ti, being rather exclusionary, reductive, and deconstructive in terms of taking things apart, cannot sacrifice its principles of truth and its picture of reality, it can't take a backseat. Fe, being rather inclusive, harmonious, and perhaps...synthetic[?] naturally seeks to incorporate and bring together: it is quite figuratively trying to expand its arms as wide as possible to give the biggest group hug it can manage. So I thought the very nature of the two functions, and their contrast, lead to the Ti user who cannot reconcile easily vs. the Fe user who can.

Now, INFJs have these functions less opposed to each other, and are both moreso at the bidding of Ni, so I am curious as to how these opposing judging functions coexist within your minds.

TLDR version:

How do you experience Fe and Ti together? Do you find them mutually exclusive, and is there some dissonance felt in experiencing them, or perhaps since they are not dominant, they operate in conjunction a bit more easily?

Thank you.

It actually occurred to me today that I have two personalities. The first personality is one that demands that people be responsible by having beliefs that are reasonable and supported by evidence. The second personality seeks to understand the views of others and sees beliefs as the simple result of the circumstances of their prior experiences in their life and therefore something to be accepted despite how unreasonable they may be. I can swing from one to the other on a dime and I think this represents the cognitive dissonance I have with Ti and Fe.

There is a mode of thought that I can enter where the two seem able to coexist peacefully. I call it "wisdom" mode. I simply ask myself, "what is truly important to me?" and I usually come to the conclusion that being happy is more important than being right. I would sooner respect my friends and loved ones than point out that their beliefs are inconsistent with reason. It requires me to suspend my criticism and to simply enjoy their presence, but in the grand scheme of things, it pays off. I could invest incredible energy into explaining to people why they are wrong, but in the end, they are probably no closer to accepting the reason or evidence, and I have probably hurt the relationship in my desire to bring them around to my point of view. Rather than engage in such futility, I make the rational choice of just being accepting of my friends and their beliefs. I don't have to validate their beliefs but simply show an interest in understanding them.

That being said, I'm not very good at using wisdom mode yet. Ti usually gets the better of me, particularly when I don't like the individual who is making irrational claims or I feel their beliefs endanger my values.

 

[whytiger]

I haven't decided whether I use Ti-Fe or Te-Fi (my cognitive processes test almost always lists Ti in second place behind Ni with Te and Fe fairly weak; I'm just too introverted).

Whatever my feeling and thinking functions are, I tend to notice some conflict between them. When going through an analysis, I can completely forget about people's feelings and certainly my own. When considering people's feelings, I can often suggest things that are outrageously illogical. I think it's best if we can use both processes before we open our mouths.

 

[TurtleTrooper]

For me it is quite simple. Ti is not limited to logic. It can also consider aesthetics and abstract relationships. The more of those I include in my Ti, the easier time I have with Fe. Of course, I am Fe because of my Ni, which is included to attune to irrational holistics within my Ti. The best way to balance my Ti is to include its own innate logic with the holistic abstractions of Ni and the gut reactions of Fi. Make a Ti that is a nest for both of them.

I'm not sure it is easy to learn to speak Ni any differently than you already do without a lot of work.

So perhaps you can focus on getting touch with internal feelings. For example, the dissonance you feel, if you examine it more closely, probably consists of an entire spectrum of feelings and resonances that are themselves a language. Start putting those in your Ti and see what happens.

My 2 cents.

THIS!

For me, Ti is like my little introverted after party. I try and figure out why everything just happened. Why am i feeling this way now? Why did they do that? Then hopefully I can learn something and go in a new direction next time or just am less confused about the whole thing. That's how I work. Not a lot of logical thinking in the moment. I have a feeling that may change as I get older though.

 

[whytiger]

THIS!

For me, Ti is like my little introverted after party. I try and figure out why everything just happened. Why am i feeling this way now? Why did they do that? Then hopefully I can learn something and go in a new direction next time or just am less confused about the whole thing. That's how I work. Not a lot of logical thinking in the moment. I have a feeling that may change as I get older though.

I do that too! I analyze people's motives and try to figure out why I'm feeling a certain way all the time. I'm good at seeing other people's feelings (reasons for them is a problem to figure out though), but I've never had a good handle on my own feelings. The after-action analysis helps. I also use Ti in the more INTP sense of figuring out the essential qualities of a theory or system. I think that Ti can help Fe, especially if Ti is strong and Fe weak.

@OP: I think INTPs are at their best when you use Ne in social interactions; you guys have a great sense of humor and can be really insightful. This doesn't quite address your question, but I like to spread it around: There's a discussion about INTPs and social interaction here that may be helpful; just scroll down to the section titled "Example: The Shy INTP". I'm not saying you're shy, but you may find it a good read.

 

[BlinkandThink]

I feel like the Fe / Ti battle is the story of my freaking life. Sometimes I get jealous of ENTPs who have underdeveloped Fe (even jealous of my past self who had underdeveloped Fe). Everything is easier to figure out when I can block that stuff out ... it just interferes with everything.

 

[Trifoilum]

hmmm...

for me it's generally related to something like this:

Ni : "incoming message!"
Fe : "heee? really? will it do good? Will others like it? Will they be angry?"
Ti : "WAIT, WHAT?" or "hey, wait, why not....."

they're dissecting, finding flaws, points to improve, inconsistencies....truth and reality. Finding new sides, another perspective, another way to look at the problem.... Using my knowledge and rational reasoning to pick out this and that. It's fun!

And I think this is completely different to INTPs, but as far as truth and reality were concerned, I as an INFJ (formerly P) considered it to be...not exactly bendable, but facetious. And each facets can be manipulated to cover, improve, or clash with the other. I think my Ti works to see each facet as much as I could.

 

[bagelriffic]

For me, Ti is like my little introverted after party.

haha spot on, me too, i think this is why i enjoy the night time so much. i also use it to comb through a finished project whatever it may be.