Saving America. Recognizing the traitor and terrorist elements at work against it. | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Saving America. Recognizing the traitor and terrorist elements at work against it.

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION], i am still interested in what you might have to say in response to my earlier remarks about depriving citizens of rights when their perspectives and decisions conflict with yours - the implications of this for America as a democracy or republic, and as a country of freedom.
 
[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION], i am still interested in what you might have to say in response to my earlier remarks about depriving citizens of rights when their perspectives and decisions conflict with yours - the implications of this for America as a democracy or republic, and as a country of freedom.

Ill address that. I am on my phone though and the amount of typing its going to take to respond to that requires a computer. Ill have one out a bit later.
 
Not a problem. I am simply tryimg to understand your concern in a way that allows me to address it.

well, you seem to describe things that are different as being the same. for example, you seem to describe national identity, or being Properly American, as being the same thing as capitalism; by your way of describing things it seems that how people feel about their country, or perceive their country historically, is inseparable from the political and economic operations or future of the country, regardless of the world climate of the country or future possibilities for the international economic climate. or you seem to describe socialism as being directly opposed to capitalism, when perhaps it is more appropriate to describe communism as a polar opposite to capitalism, as in a contemporary sense socialism broadly represents a much more various array of ideas about wealth distribution. however i may have misunderstood what you are saying and maybe i should read it again more carefully.
 
I believe that more often then not this is welcomed and even fostered by these peoples countries. How nice it must be to focus hatred of the people away from your own failed government to one that has little to nothing to so with their daily lives. It makes it so much easier to rule.

although whether or not this sort of hatred is taken advantage of by those in power in some given country is not necessarily related to how or why the hatred came about?
 
[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION], i am still interested in what you might have to say in response to my earlier remarks about depriving citizens of rights when their perspectives and decisions conflict with yours - the implications of this for America as a democracy or republic, and as a country of freedom.

McCarthyism and Socialism are both inconsistent with American values and what the original intent for the country was. We talk about implementing one today but not the other. Socialism taking greater hold on our country as time passes. So the question is, why is one allowed to flourish and not be questioned while the other is not? Its not that I want McCarthyism or a similar ideal to take hold but if our country is being infiltrated by something that will damage it, in this case socialism, a strong counter response needs to be sent in relation to that. Much like war. No one wants war but sometimes its necessary.

Long before we start putting Americans in FEMA camps to be processed in this way though we need to make sure our voting system is accurate and that only live Americans are allowed to vote and vote once. I hope to see any new nonliberal President move in the direction to ensure that every real American vote counts. I think this will have a huge effect on the direction our country takes. So much so that more drastic measures may never need to be considered.

In the mean time we need to look at all options no matter how unappetizing they may be.
 
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although whether or not this sort of hatred is taken advantage of by those in power in some given country is not necessarily related to how or why the hatred came about?

Not really relevant to the original statement though is it? Trying to prove that America is to blame or is not is quite honestly something Im not sure anyone can do.
 
The most glaring example is the lack of evidence you have provided supporting your side.
No I have evidence. Any number of youtube videos you can pull up with people chanting death to America. Besides you are the one telling me I am wrong, its on you to show me how.
 
Really? People screaming death to America doesnt seem seem to indicate something other than hate. Perhaps I have that wrong though.

Political leaders of other countries, say like South America, and i would guess the mid east too, use the hate to america for a reason, and it hardly haves to do with how people live there, quality of life, and quantities of money. The USA government haves a history of watching for their interests, and it haves a very nasty history with foreign countries, that ranges through financing coup d etats, exploiting other countrie's natural resources, and plainly putting their hands were no one wants them to. Kind of like the toilet for them to take a shit somewhere else if you want to call it something. Which many people from those countries say in response, basically, take your crap to your own country or somewhere else and get the fuck out. It's as simple as that. None of what i say is speculation btw, it's all stuff that's on the news and wikipedia.
Anyway it's a political move that's opportunistic imo, and to an extent, i'm personally disgusted of those half baked assholes case of Venezuela in point. But it haves it's own foundations, saying that people hate america because they're envious of how they live there, is just silly.
As for Socialism, man, that's paranoia, Bernie Sanders ain't no red, he follows mainly the Sweden model, which is not something extreme by any means. Although i would guess by some americans standards it would be equal to a traitor as you say, although for many is just common sense what he proposes. The guy doesn't seem like he talks crap.
 
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McCarthyism and Socialism are both inconsistent with American values and what the original intent for the country was. We talk about implementing one today but not the other. Socialism taking greater hold on our country as time passes. So the question is, why is one allowed to flourish and not be questioned while the other is not? Its not that I want McCarthyism or a similar ideal to take hold but if our country is being infiltrated by something that will damage it, in this case socialism, a strong counter response needs to be sent in relation to that. Much like war. No one wants war but sometimes its necessary.

Long before we start putting Americans in FEMA camps to be processed in this way though we need to make sure our voting system is accurate and that only live Americans are allowed to vote and vote once. I hope to see any new nonliberal President move in the direction to ensure that every real American vote counts. I think this will have a huge effect on the direction our country takes. So much so that more drastic measures may never need to be considered.

In the mean time we need to look at all options no matter how unappetizing they may be.

what i really want to know is - if America was intended to be a republic - how can it remain true to these intended ideals while at the same time selectively preventing a group of its people from having any democratic say in the leadership or development of the country? wouldnt this compromise the way that the country was intended to be as much as anything else? how can you determine that one such compromise - moving from a democratic republic to a sort of idiological totalitarianism - is preferable to any other compromise to what was intended for the country? what gives you the privilege to make that decision over others who might want something different?
 
Not really relevant to the original statement though is it? Trying to prove that America is to blame or is not is quite honestly something Im not sure anyone can do.

i was not trying to prove that anyone is to blame. i was saying that hatred is complicated, and rarely has simple explanations.
 
why is a country that excludes people from voting on the basis of their political convictions more free than a country that excludes people for voting on the basis of their religious beliefs, or their sex?
 
No I have evidence. Any number of youtube videos you can pull up with people chanting death to America. Besides you are the one telling me I am wrong, its on you to show me how.

Any number of YouTube videos that supposedly exist but are suspiciously absent.


Anyways That isn't how burden of proof works but okay lol.
 
Political leaders of other countries, say like South America, and i would guess the mid east too, use the hate to america for a reason, and it hardly haves to do with how people live there, quality of life, and quantities of money. The USA government haves a history of watching for their interests, and it haves a very nasty history with foreign countries, that ranges through financing coup d etats, exploiting other countrie's natural resources, and plainly putting their hands were no one wants them to. Kind of like the toilet for them to take a shit somewhere else if you want to call it something. Which many people from those countries say in response, basically, take your crap to your own country or somewhere else and get the fuck out. It's as simple as that. None of what i say is speculation btw, it's all stuff that's on the news and wikipedia.
Anyway it's a political move that's opportunistic imo, and to an extent, i'm personally disgusted of those half baked assholes case of Venezuela in point. But it haves it's own foundations, saying that people hate america because they're envious of how they live there, is just silly.
As for Socialism, man, that's paranoia, Bernie Sanders ain't no red, he follows mainly the Sweden model, which is not something extreme by any means. Although i would guess by some americans standards it would be equal to a traitor as you say, although for many is just common sense what he proposes. The guy doesn't seem like he talks crap.

I understand what you are saying believe me. But in the end I dont see it as anything more than, a person on the block has the biggest house and people dont like it. What, does that person think they are better than everyone else ect...

Its very easy to lay blame. Oh America has done such bad things. All while overlooking the fact the people saying that are hypocrites themselves. Humans arent perfect. Societies arent perfect. Nothing is perfect. You take the best of what you have and try to build on that. And while not perfect, America is that.
 
what i really want to know is - if America was intended to be a republic - how can it remain true to these intended ideals while at the same time selectively preventing a group of its people from having any democratic say in the leadership or development of the country? wouldnt this compromise the way that the country was intended to be as much as anything else? how can you determine that one such compromise - moving from a democratic republic to a sort of idiological totalitarianism - is preferable to any other compromise to what was intended for the country? what gives you the privilege to make that decision over others who might want something different?

Good points. To leave the house unlocked you must be willing to accept the fact you may be robbed. To have a free society you must be willing to accept you may be infiltrated. The problem is, once its done its done and you can never go back. So there has to be some common sense, some recognition that you cant have a completely open society as much as you might like it if you want to maintain what you have.
 
i was not trying to prove that anyone is to blame. i was saying that hatred is complicated, and rarely has simple explanations.

Hatred can have complex reasons and simple reasons. I dont think theres any rhyme or reason to it.
 
Good points. To leave the house unlocked you must be willing to accept the fact you may be robbed. To have a free society you must be willing to accept you may be infiltrated. The problem is, once its done its done and you can never go back. So there has to be some common sense, some recognition that you cant have a completely open society as much as you might like it if you want to maintain what you have.

so if there will be a compromise in the American ideal either way, why should the priorities that you determine for organising freedom have greater power to determine that sort of change than the priorities of anyone else?
 
Yes we can squabble about what real freedom is. Who has more etc.. America simply has a lot more freedom than other countries. Freedom for women to vote, freedom to make a life of your own choosing. The recognition that all men are created equal even though it has taken us a long long time to actually recognize that...

Its not necessarily freedom itself they hate. Its the possibility of what it brings with it.

Ok but the measures that you are proposing to safeguard this conception of America inherently destroys it. Ironically, the description in the last line in your post above could be used just as well to describe McCarthyists at their height, though you intended it to describe terrorists.