"Relax, it's just a joke." | Page 12 | INFJ Forum

"Relax, it's just a joke."

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Odyne, Jan 30, 2020.

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  1. Maikl Jexocuha

    Maikl Jexocuha Ла Фагмакфа!
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    Since I already know my responses will be dismissed as if I'm not educated on these subjects I'll just post a reference video on my points... #whatever-the-fuk

     
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  2. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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    Git gud you illiterate swine!
    Our jeans are in danger :fearful:
     
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  3. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    There are a few problems with what you have just said.
    1. We know the mechanism behind natural selection: replication, variation and selection. Those alleles that are best at getting themselves replicated will become dominant in the gene pool. Simple. But what is the mechanism for group selection?
    2. What does group selection explain that ordinary gene level natural selection doesn't? Everything that is supposedly explained by group selection is also explained by natural selection. What is the point of it?
     
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  4. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking?
     
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  5. Maikl Jexocuha

    Maikl Jexocuha Ла Фагмакфа!
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    If group selection has more to do with "meme replication" vs "gene replication", that's all. As per Dawkins argument that living creatures are meme replicators.
     
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  6. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Oh right. Yes that seems right from what I know. Thanks for sharing that speech. Im going to watch it now.
     
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  7. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    Wolly, you are one of the most obtuse people that I've ever come across :laughing::laughing:

    You know damn well what the mechanism is for group selection - those alleles you mentioned? Yeah they're only alive because the individual they exist within is alive, and that guy is only alive because his group is alive.

    Why isn't there more Neanderthal DNA in the modern gene pool? Because they were outcompeted by Homo Sapiens - Homo Sapiens exhibited behaviours that made their groups more cohesive (like religion). In other words, genes that coded for behaviours only beneficial at the level of the group aided the survival of individuals by ensuring they were part of successful groups. Individually, Homo Sapiens were overmatched by Neanderthalensis; they only succeeded because of their group behaviours.

    It's not just intra-species group selection we're talking about, but inter-species. How many fucking examples do you want? Herd behaviours, pack behaviours, whatever you damn well like - the fitter pack will win out of the the weaker pack with fitter individuals. Is the very existence of social behaviours not enough proof for you that genes which code for group-beneficial traits are selected for? You're using a very very technical, silly definition of group selection to undermine what is a patently, obviously real mechanism.
     
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  8. Ginny

    Ginny Idiot Savante

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    I wonder how Pinker even gets selected as valid source matetial when he's incapable of bringing about valid arguments to prove his hypotheses. Just because he publishes a lot of books, he's neither an expert nor does he seem to be bothered to check his knowledge with what is established.

    The only reason to being up Pinker (that I can see thus far) is to provide a controversial opinion just to be controversial. Or to laugh at the battles between him and the scholars he tries to piss off. I actually always wanted to read a book of his just to see the other side - see whether I'm right in thinking the way I do.
     
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  9. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    This isn't a mechanism. Here, lets look at this from a different perspective.

    The reproductive success of humans undoubtedly depends in part on the fate of their groups. If a group is annihilated, all the people in it, together with their genes, are annihilated. If a group acquires territory or food or mates, the windfall will benefit some or all of its members. But this brings us to the familiar problem which led most evolutionary biologists to reject the idea of group selection in the 1960s. Any genetic tendency to risk life and limb that results in a net decrease in individual inclusive fitness will be relentlessly selected against. A new mutation with this effect would not come to predominate in the population, and even if it did, it would be driven out by any immigrant or mutant that favored itself at the expense of the group.

    Let's take the concrete example of collective aggression. Often the benefits to the self and to the group may coincide. A warrior may scare off a party of attackers and save the lives of his fellow villagers together with the lives of himself and his family. In other cases the benefits may diverge: the warrior may stay at the rear, or sneak off to the side, and let everyone else fight. In still others the outcome may be uncertain, but because selection works on probabilities, he may play the odds, say, taking a one-in-ten chance of getting killed in a raid that promises a one-in-two chance of abducting a few extra wives. We should expect selection to favor traits that maximize the individual's expected reproductive output, given these tradeoffs.

    What we don't expect to see is the evolution of an innate tendency among individuals to predictably sacrifice their expected interests for the interests of the group—to cheerfully volunteer to serve as a galley slave, a human shield, or cannon fodder. Take the extreme case of a gene that impelled a person to launch a suicide attack that allowed his group to prevail over an enemy. That is hardly a gene that could be selected! (I'll put aside for now the potential benefits to the suicide warrior's kin.) What could evolve, instead, is a tendency to manipulate others to become suicide attackers, and more generally, to promulgate norms of morality and self-sacrifice that one intends to apply in full force to everyone in the group but oneself. If one is the unlucky victim of such manipulation or coercion by others, there's no need to call it altruism and search for an evolutionary explanation, any more than we need to explain the "altruism" of a prey animal who benefits a predator by blundering into its sights.

    Thus we have a nice set of competing empirical predictions for any examples of group-benefiting self-sacrifice we do observe in humans. If humans were selected to benefit their groups at the expense of themselves, then self-sacrificial acts should be deliberate, spontaneous, and uncompensated, just like other adaptations such as libido, a sweet tooth, or parental love. But if humans were selected to benefit themselves and their kin in the context of group living (perhaps, but not necessarily, by also benefiting their groups), then any guaranteed self-sacrifice should be a product of manipulation by others, such as enslavement, conscription, external incentives, or psychological manipulation.

    To be sure, if we go back to group selection as an explanation of group traits, particularly cultural ones, then it's easy to see how a group that successfully coerced or manipulated a renewable supply of its own members to launch suicide attacks might expand relative to other groups. But that would have nothing to do with its members' inherited psychology, in this case, their willingness to sacrifice themselves without manipulation. The same is true for less extreme sacrifices.
     
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  10. Ren

    Ren Pin's android

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  11. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Besides his last 2 books, I don't see where you can draw this criticism from. Hes a linguist and evolutionary psychologist.To say hes been criticized for his work isn't saying much. EVERYONE is criticized for their work, that's just what scientists do.
     
  12. Ginny

    Ginny Idiot Savante

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    Yes, you don't and you also don't see that it's not criticism at all. Of course banter is common among scholars, that's half the fun of it.

    The only thing I've been saying is that my limited scope has led me to this initial judgement, but that I am open to seeing a different point of view.

    Quoting Pinker always leads to outrageous conclusions that fuel a lot of discussions, is what I'm saying.
     
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  13. Ren

    Ren Pin's android

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    Did you write this? This is... very well-written :grinning:
     
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  14. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Lol no. That was Pinker again.
     
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  15. Professor Snep

    Professor Snep Smart. Sexy. Snep.

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  16. Wyote

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  17. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    Best science joke of the day confirmed.
     
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  18. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    Oh boy... *you're dumb, really really dumb.gif*

    Gene expression is a thing, and it's something we see with sexual dimorphism a lot. Genes can be switched off in one sex and on in another, and still be inherited by both (but someone fact-check me on that).

    This means that we can have the following scenario:
    - self-sacrificial genes can be turned on in males and off in females of the same line.
    - this would promote the early death of a man, and his sons, but...
    - this would also promote the survival of his daughters if the self-sacrifice was beneficial to them.

    Pinker's little disclaimer there about 'net inclusive fitness' is basically his whole argument, when nobody is saying that these traits result in a net decrease in fitness. Slippery, very slippery.
     
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  19. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    *pages and pages of memes and bullshit*
    Ren: :neutral:

    *An interesting and relevant digression*
    Ren: lads...
     
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  20. Ren

    Ren Pin's android

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    Ren: lads :hearteyes:
     
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