"Relax, it's just a joke." | Page 11 | INFJ Forum

"Relax, it's just a joke."

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Odyne, Jan 30, 2020.

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  1. StanleyBarBaDoS

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    Well if they are actually hurtful jokes then they are being a dick. Otherwise people are just being overly sensitive. Idk why this needs to be further complicated.
     
  2. Aneirin

    Aneirin AKA, David
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    so you show up and get all simple and shit. . I don't know why we are still talking about this
     
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  3. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    Yeah, let's sit at home in silence with all the answers.

    It was fun. It was interesting. The complexifications sparked further ideas which (in my case) led to some self-development.

    It's pretty odd to join in something only to say 'why are we even doing this?' You didn't have to get involved.
     
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  4. sassafras

    On Holiday

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    At the end of the day, rapport is king. For someone who is confident they have all the answers, you haven’t really demonstrated that understanding. You just positioned yourself outside of the group by coming into a thread that many people are obviously interested in and dismissed what they care about as being too complicated. Sounds like you might actually benefit a lot from this discussion. Or if you prefer not to, you’ve still made a contribution as an object lesson, so I guess it’s a win-win?
     
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  5. Ren

    Ren Pin's android

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. OK007

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    This has been a very great read and inspiring as always. Ok the hiking boots are on and now off to a walk in nature. For some reason I feel the need to relate all this to something natural. I have a vision in mind of the shore of the river and bird droppings that litter the shoreline. I could ruin my hike by focusing on the bird droppings and how things would be more pristine without them, but I need to learn that this is part of the landscape and nature. As I look around I will be inspired by the beauty in all of it. I wish everyone a great day and have a feeling this hike is going to be very meaningful. Thank you all for your words.
     
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  7. StanleyBarBaDoS

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    Just seems like a waste of time to write dissertation-length posts about to me
     
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  8. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    Bye, then.
     
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  9. slant

    slant Fairly Tragic

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    Why do you think this

    Tell me more
     
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  10. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Couldn't have put it better myself.
     
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  11. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Off topic, but I just have to say it. Group Selection isn't real.

    The core of natural selection is that when replicators arise and make copies of themselves, (1) their numbers will tend, under ideal conditions, to increase exponentially; (2) they will necessarily compete for finite resources; (3) some will undergo random copying errors ("random" in the sense that they do not anticipate their effects in the current environment); and (4) whichever copying errors happen to increase the rate of replication will accumulate in a lineage and predominate in the population. After many generations of replication, the replicators will show the appearance of design for effective replication, while in reality they have just accumulated the copying errors that had successful replication as their effect.

    The theory of natural selection applies most readily to genes because they have the right stuff to drive selection, namely making high-fidelity copies of themselves. Granted, it's often convenient to speak about selection at the level of individuals, because it's the fate of individuals (and their kin) in the world of cause and effect which determines the fate of their genes. Nonetheless, it's the genes themselves that are replicated over generations and are thus the targets of selection and the ultimate beneficiaries of adaptations. Sexually reproducing organisms don't literally replicate themselves, because their offspring are not clones but rather composites of themselves and their mates. Nor can any organism, sexual or asexual, pass onto its offspring the traits it has acquired in its lifetime. Individual bodies are simply not passed down through the generations the way that genes are. As Stephen Jay Gould put it, "You can't take it with you, in this sense above all."

    What about groups? Natural selection could legitimately apply to groups if they met certain conditions: the groups made copies of themselves by budding or fissioning, the descendant groups faithfully reproduced traits of the parent group (which cannot be reduced to the traits of their individual members), except for mutations that were blind to their costs and benefits to the group; and groups competed with one another for representation in a meta-population of groups. But everyone agrees that this is not what happens in so-called "group selection.

    Most of the groupwide traits that group selectionists try to explain are cultural rather than genetic. The trait does not arise from some gene whose effects propagate upward to affect the group as a whole, such as a genetic tendency of individuals to disperse which leads the group to have a widespread geographic distribution, or an ability of individuals to withstand stressful environments which leads the species to survive mass extinction events. Instead, they are traits that are propagated culturally, such as religious beliefs, social norms, and forms of political organization. Modern group selectionists are often explicit that it is cultural traits they are talking about, or even that they are agnostic about whether the traits they are referring to are genetic or cultural.

    What all this means is that so-called group selection, as it is invoked by many of its advocates, is not a precise implementation of the theory of natural selection, as it is, say, in genetic algorithms or artificial life simulations. Instead it is a loose metaphor, more like the struggle among kinds of tires or telephones. For this reason the term "group selection" adds little to what we have always called "history." Sure, some cultures have what it takes to become more populous or powerful or widespread, including expansionist ideologies, proselytizing offensives, effective military strategies, lethal weaponry, stable government, social capital, the rule of law, and norms of tribal loyalty.

    Steven Pinker.
     
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  12. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    It's real.

    Traits that favour survival by improving the fitness of the group overall (e.g. altruism) also favour individual survival and selection.

    But we're not biologists so you can have your opinion. I just think it's overwhelmingly evident as a mechanism.
     
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  13. Ginny

    Ginny Idiot Savante

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    Lol, Pinker :tearsofjoy:
     
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  14. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Well yes. That's true of most social species on earth. But this is not what is typically meant by "Group Selection".

    Edit: Actually no, up re-reading I now realize you misused the word "fitness" here. You can say altruism improves the "fitness" of the group, sure. The group will survive longer if its member's are "altruistic". But, as Pinker and Dawkins have already explained, groups aren't "selected for". They don't replicate, and they don't make random copying errors upon replication. Genes do.
     
    #214 wolly.green, Feb 3, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  15. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    It is. No wriggling.
     
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  16. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    No no. Most of the groupwide traits that group selectionists try to explain are cultural rather than genetic. Also, I updated my response. I will repost it here.

    Actually no, up re-reading I now realize you misused the word "fitness" here. You can say altruism improves the "fitness" of the group, sure. The group will survive longer if its member's are "altruistic". But, as Pinker and Dawkins have already explained, groups aren't "selected for". They don't replicate, and they don't make random copying errors upon replication. Genes do.
     
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  17. Maikl Jexocuha

    Maikl Jexocuha Ла Фагмакфа!
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    Does it apply equally to "meme" replication?
     
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  18. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    That's just a semantic difference. There is a mechanism of 'group selection' even if groups aren't 'selected for', just as there are mechanisms of 'individual selection' even though selection 'technically' happens on the gene-level.
     
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  19. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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    When do genes become memes that ruin our jeans...

    2020
     
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  20. Hostarius

    Hostarius Thermobaric

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    ...and then those memes cause the genes to ruin our jeans :flushed:
     
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