First, no one is trying to dismiss your beliefs. I see people, myself included, engaging in a conversation.
Secondly, John Calvin <3
Third, I'll be back to this thread when I have more time.
First, no one is trying to dismiss your beliefs. I see people, myself included, engaging in a conversation.
Secondly, John Calvin <3
Third, I'll be back to this thread when I have more time.
"Penal substitution (sometimes, esp. in older writings, called forensic theory)[1][2] is a theory of the atonement within Christian theology, which argues that Christ, by his own sacrificial choice, was punished (penalized) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive the sins. It developed with the Reformed tradition.[1][2][3][4][5] as a specific understanding of substitutionary atonement, where the substitutionary nature of Jesus' death is understood in the sense of a substitutionary punishment.
While penal substitution shares themes present in other theories of the atonement, penal substitution is a distinctively Protestant understanding of the atonement that differs from both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox understandings of the atonement. A belief in penal substitution is often regarded as a hallmark of the evangelical faith and is included as an article of faith by many (but not all) evangelical organizations today." Wikipedia
Al I can say, is read Leviticus and see what type blood offerings were already in place before Christanity. (That's reading about how people lived back then even before Christ). Smply read Hebrews, where He entered into the Holy of Holies as our High Priest(taking the place of the once-a-year in Leviticus) visit as an atonement for sin. No more daily and yearly sin offerings. "
Hebrews 10:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
or better yet
Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
He instilled a New Covenant, which was spoken into existence many years before: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
Hebrews 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
A covenant requires the death of the testator. This was a requirement, not some form of penal code. It was a replacement. I suggest some non-Christians should read the Bible and study it before trying to debate it.
First, Leviticus. Second, Hebrews. It spells it out in detail. It has been my observation that most people find Leviticus so boring they don't study it. Yet, it is a must to understand Christ.
Pure Christianity, without denomination,without added on rules or Reformation. We should be in a new movement to take the place of Reformation. We should be in Preparation, for we need to prepare to meet our God.
While penal substitution shares themes present in other theories of the atonement, penal substitution is a distinctively Protestant understanding of the atonement that differs from both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox understandings of the atonement. A belief in penal substitution is often regarded as a hallmark of the evangelical faith and is included as an article of faith by many (but not all) evangelical organizations today." Wikipedia
Al I can say, is read Leviticus and see what type blood offerings were already in place before Christanity. (That's reading about how people lived back then even before Christ). Smply read Hebrews, where He entered into the Holy of Holies as our High Priest(taking the place of the once-a-year in Leviticus) visit as an atonement for sin. No more daily and yearly sin offerings. "
Hebrews 10:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
or better yet
Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
He instilled a New Covenant, which was spoken into existence many years before: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
Hebrews 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
A covenant requires the death of the testator. This was a requirement, not some form of penal code. It was a replacement. I suggest some non-Christians should read the Bible and study it before trying to debate it.
First, Leviticus. Second, Hebrews. It spells it out in detail. It has been my observation that most people find Leviticus so boring they don't study it. Yet, it is a must to understand Christ.
Pure Christianity, without denomination,without added on rules or Reformation. We should be in a new movement to take the place of Reformation. We should be in Preparation, for we need to prepare to meet our God.
What do the practices of people, during the centuries after the crucifiction, have to do with Jesus' death on the cross, and our redemption?
You guys are still confusing religion with Faith.
I really don't know how to say it any simpler.
There is no liturgy. People can make up whatever they want, and call it "Christian", but naming something and being something are two different things.
Something either IS or it ISN'T. Practices have nothing to do with what Jesus did. Is this easier to understand?
Thank you for proving my point for me.
I agree with this, but I will add that seeking something new to "take the place of the Reformation" only results in a different denomination. What the folks who started the various 'non-demoninational' churches don't realize is that non-denomination is a denomination. What is sought is pre-denomination. As it was before the schisms and new developments.
The Reformation was a reaction against the perceived abuses of the Church and papacy at that time. In trying to correct the course of the church, it eventually got rid of everything that was 'Christian' since the beginning. In essence, the Reformation went from one extreme to the other. Where instead of having a Bishop or Pope, everyone became their own pope. Instead of following the teachings, interpretation, and traditions of the original Church, everyone developed their own way and interpretation. Ironically, they all said their different interpretation was "guided by the Holy Spirit."
If you're just talking about having faith then you're right. We're talking about two different things. Faith doesn't automatically make one a Christian. I'm speaking of faith within the context of Christianity. I wonder if there is a way to bridge this gap?
Nothing if you're not a Christian. Everything if you are.
What does 'liturgy' mean to you?
Liturgy
1: a form or formulary according to which public religious worship, especially Christian worship, is conducted.
synonyms: ritual, worship, service, ceremony, rite, observance, celebration, ordinance, office, sacrament, solemnity, ceremonial; More
Liturgy is a codex of works. Works do not prove beliefs. In Jesus day, they did not have the Book, but they did have the word. In His day He required that they Eat of His flesh (comunion). In the days after the flesh, comunion is in the word which must be consumed.
Word study: Consume; To take in; to become One with; to Consummate with; to Know (biblically); to Conceive with; To be Married to. In the New Testimate, a Christian is one who is married to Christ. The Bride of Christ.
Jesus died for ALL. Even for those who do not believe. The works and liturgies of people after the crucifiction mean nothing. It is only what Jesus did. People do all sorts of things in His name, but rarely are they in line with what He taught, just as in the days when He argued with the Jewish High Priests, that they did not understand His Father, or His Kingdom.
With all this being said, I would like to move beyond the topic of "What is a Christian", and start getting into some meat.
It is often neglected that Jesus is said to have been raised in part, in Egypt. I think this is important because there is something in the Lord's Prayer, "His most important Prayer", that alludes to certain philosophical understandings.
"Thy will be done on Earth, as it is also done in Heaven". For the Hermetic fans out there, I think you can see the resemblance to that of, "As above, so below". Plato's accounts also reflect this philosophy, which much was originated from Egypt, when he speaks of, The things that are Intelligible, (of things knownable). as compared to the things that are of Opinion, (that which can be observed in our world of existence).
In maths, this is also evident when understanding the Nature of energy, which must be mathematically understood via the complex plane. What is knowable but not observed, are the things which reside in the Imaginary plane, and things that are observed, exist on the Real plane.
Just some food for thought.
It is often neglected that Jesus is said to have been raised in part, in Egypt. I think this is important because there is something in the Lord's Prayer, "His most important Prayer", that alludes to certain philosophical understandings.
"Thy will be done on Earth, as it is also done in Heaven". For the Hermetic fans out there, I think you can see the resemblance to that of, "As above, so below". Plato's accounts also reflect this philosophy, which much was originated from Egypt, when he speaks of, The things that are Intelligible, (of things knownable). as compared to the things that are of Opinion, (that which can be observed in our world of existence).
In maths, this is also evident when understanding the Nature of energy, which must be mathematically understood via the complex plane. What is knowable but not observed, are the things which reside in the Imaginary plane, and things that are observed, exist on the Real plane.
Just some food for thought.
Who said works prove belief? Is that what you're arguing against? Of course there are empty works. Just as there are plenty of people that claim to have faith but are total garbage.
Thanks Professor Andwound!
My argument is not that works proves belief, but to refute
Maybe I don't understand what you mean exactly, so before I waste our time rambling, would you mind expounding a little more on what you mean by "there is no liturgy"?
Act 4:32 ¶
"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common".
One of the most important things to consider when reading, that I found is to make sure that punctuation and grammar are being followed. Notice the paragraph symbol of this verse. This is telling us that there is a new thought or event being communicated. What is important about this verse in particular, is that it is a demarcation point in the Book of Acts, where it starts off revealing the Pentecost event, and now is moving into the ministries of the apostles.
The main theme at this juncture that I have found is that after the direct association of Jesus' ministry, which lasted even through the Pentecost event, was over, and the apostles ministry truly begins, so also does the necessity of money now come into view for the very first time - the exact same time. I think this is terribly important for the context of later ministries. Don't you?
I have brought this up with my pastor, and he did not dispute this as a viable conclusion.
"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common".
One of the most important things to consider when reading, that I found is to make sure that punctuation and grammar are being followed. Notice the paragraph symbol of this verse. This is telling us that there is a new thought or event being communicated. What is important about this verse in particular, is that it is a demarcation point in the Book of Acts, where it starts off revealing the Pentecost event, and now is moving into the ministries of the apostles.
The main theme at this juncture that I have found is that after the direct association of Jesus' ministry, which lasted even through the Pentecost event, was over, and the apostles ministry truly begins, so also does the necessity of money now come into view for the very first time - the exact same time. I think this is terribly important for the context of later ministries. Don't you?
I have brought this up with my pastor, and he did not dispute this as a viable conclusion.
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Act 4:31¶
"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness".
Here is another related point that I made during a BIble study that raised everybody's eyebrows. I told the group that I thought it was very interesting that the Holy Ghost's gift to the apostles was restoring the language barrier that was bestowed by God during the days of the Tower of Babel. As if God Himself deemed that it was time for mankind to use this gift for the purpose of spreading the Gospel, instead of mankind using this ability for his own selfish reasons.
"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness".
Here is another related point that I made during a BIble study that raised everybody's eyebrows. I told the group that I thought it was very interesting that the Holy Ghost's gift to the apostles was restoring the language barrier that was bestowed by God during the days of the Tower of Babel. As if God Himself deemed that it was time for mankind to use this gift for the purpose of spreading the Gospel, instead of mankind using this ability for his own selfish reasons.
Milktoast, I proved nothing for you. I was quoting the definition out of Wikipedia. It does not relate to this.
My point being that it did not exist when Christianity was founded.
I guess pm is where this conversation continues eh?
I think we can come back here. Why not, perhaps this discussion and controversy may be revealing?
↑
This is 'penal substitution'. An idea that is completely foreign to Christianity since the beginning. It wasn't until the 11th century that this idea began to take shape and the 16th century when it became solidified by the Reformers
↑
was punished (penalized) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive the sins. It developed with the Reformed tradition COPIED FROM WIKIPEDIA
My point being that it did not exist when Christianity was founded. quoted from milktoast
The following is written by just me:
just me did not say what you are quoting, for the second and last time. It came from Wikipedia and this is becoming a bit childish to me. Stop saying I said something I only quoted. It does not mean I agree with it, either. I never proved one of your points.
I disagree with your take on how the Reformation destroyed Christianity. Martin Luther brought about change, and some of it was forthcoming. All I'm saying is, the time is drawing near and we should prepare ourselves. Clean the house. Make up the beds. Vacuum the floors. Fill our lamps with oil....all of this metaphors. Nowadays, the kids need a Jesus App. The parents need to teach. The grandparents need to join in. Now, if God has placed that on my heart to say: I shall say it.
This is 'penal substitution'. An idea that is completely foreign to Christianity since the beginning. It wasn't until the 11th century that this idea began to take shape and the 16th century when it became solidified by the Reformers
↑
was punished (penalized) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive the sins. It developed with the Reformed tradition COPIED FROM WIKIPEDIA
My point being that it did not exist when Christianity was founded. quoted from milktoast
The following is written by just me:
just me did not say what you are quoting, for the second and last time. It came from Wikipedia and this is becoming a bit childish to me. Stop saying I said something I only quoted. It does not mean I agree with it, either. I never proved one of your points.
I disagree with your take on how the Reformation destroyed Christianity. Martin Luther brought about change, and some of it was forthcoming. All I'm saying is, the time is drawing near and we should prepare ourselves. Clean the house. Make up the beds. Vacuum the floors. Fill our lamps with oil....all of this metaphors. Nowadays, the kids need a Jesus App. The parents need to teach. The grandparents need to join in. Now, if God has placed that on my heart to say: I shall say it.