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Racism
- Thread starter daydreamer
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Shai Gar
I agree that we are deeply effected by our environment. There is another applicable buddhist concept. I dont want to over due it. LOL
ROFLAS- Rolling on floor laughing at self
*sigh* Okay I'll bite. I shouldn't, but I will. This is what I think of when I am told I have White Privilege.
I am a white male living in a poverty stricken country village. Our water has been deemed so bad here that the state will not allow us to expand the water system without paying millions to upgrade. This is due to the massive amounts of fertilizer we dump on the crops to increase yield so the rest of the country can get cheap food.
Over a third of the people here get assistance via food stamps or welfare, and the vast majority of the rest who don't get assistance still live under the poverty level listed by the government. They simply have too much pride to get help. The average wage in this town is minimum wage. A factory job is considered a great job here. Even running my own restaurant here I myself barely slip over the poverty level, and that is before I start putting out money voluntarily to help as many people around me as I can. I live on far less. The fact is I live in a one bedroom apartment with two family members: one is disabled and the other simply can't find work.
Recreation here is drinking cheap beer, listening to the radio and watching television. Anything more is a damn special occasion.
As far as education, our school system is woefully underpaid, understaffed and underfunded. The dropout rate is high because people need to get to work yesterday. A few people can still get scholarships, and a few can manage to get to college, but they leave town and never come back. Most people stay here. It's home and family. Most of the people here can trace their family back in this village at least three generations. We are poor, but proud. Proud of our heritage and proud of working hard and helping our neighbors.
So when I hear about my privilege and the privilege of my white neighbors, you lose me. Racism as hate and violence and deliberate oppression I can fight against with you. But the white privilege train left here a long time ago. I could leave too, technically. It would be difficult, but it's possible. However that wouldn't make anyone still here 'supporting' the area so you get cheap corn syrup and soy more privileged.
I am a white male living in a poverty stricken country village. Our water has been deemed so bad here that the state will not allow us to expand the water system without paying millions to upgrade. This is due to the massive amounts of fertilizer we dump on the crops to increase yield so the rest of the country can get cheap food.
Over a third of the people here get assistance via food stamps or welfare, and the vast majority of the rest who don't get assistance still live under the poverty level listed by the government. They simply have too much pride to get help. The average wage in this town is minimum wage. A factory job is considered a great job here. Even running my own restaurant here I myself barely slip over the poverty level, and that is before I start putting out money voluntarily to help as many people around me as I can. I live on far less. The fact is I live in a one bedroom apartment with two family members: one is disabled and the other simply can't find work.
Recreation here is drinking cheap beer, listening to the radio and watching television. Anything more is a damn special occasion.
As far as education, our school system is woefully underpaid, understaffed and underfunded. The dropout rate is high because people need to get to work yesterday. A few people can still get scholarships, and a few can manage to get to college, but they leave town and never come back. Most people stay here. It's home and family. Most of the people here can trace their family back in this village at least three generations. We are poor, but proud. Proud of our heritage and proud of working hard and helping our neighbors.
So when I hear about my privilege and the privilege of my white neighbors, you lose me. Racism as hate and violence and deliberate oppression I can fight against with you. But the white privilege train left here a long time ago. I could leave too, technically. It would be difficult, but it's possible. However that wouldn't make anyone still here 'supporting' the area so you get cheap corn syrup and soy more privileged.
I see.
No, there are racists in the community. However I would say that they are the minority and the nonwhite individuals have as many friends and reliable neighbors as the average white person here.
Financially? Yep. No Money is No Money. Are they included in religions and social groups? Yep.
I doubt they feel that way because it doesn't take a majority or even a large percentage of people who dislike you to feel excluded.
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My questions: At what percentage of the population does racism stop being my fault? Make no mistake, when you speak about things such as 'White Privilege' you imply that all white people are both privileged and to blame. Since I am white, I am to blame. Does the fact that I verbally speak against racism to individual white people in my community alleviate any of my supposed guilt? When only a minority of whites still harbor racist opinions in a community despite attempts to educate it out, why is it still the fault of each non racist white person individually?
But more to the point about 'White Privilege': If someone has more of everything then someone else, why does the first one get to tell the second one that they are more privileged because of race? At what point of poverty and lack do I personally get to stop being considered a 'privileged white man'?
And finally: I've posted about issues I have had in the past. My family losses and my fights with suicide. Why should it be acceptable to assume that any group's average member (not extraordinary examples, the norm) has been hurt more then I have by default because of race or sex? The reason this argument degenerates to personal stories? Because when you say 'whites' you imply 'all whites' and from there you imply 'every white person individually'. This is what the statement means. Just like racist remarks about 'blacks' breaks down that way in the mind of each black person individually. Which is why I initially said 'it cannot be discussed'. Because it is personal, for everyone.
First, let me tone things down a bit - I don't mean to say every single white person in the community should embrace them. There are racists on every side, and I agree with that. But the question isn't that *everyone* has to like them. The question is are the majority treating them differently than they should. Or will people who treat them like equals get flak for treating the eight people in your community equally? It's hard to say because I'm not there, and you might see things differently. Next time you see a person of color in your store, watch the folks around you and around them. See if there might be a "change" in the way people treat them compared to other patrons in the store.
I'm not saying you have to feel guilty (read what I put above, about equality). I'm not saying you have to feel guilty about anything or pay for the past. What I *am* saying, however, is that in order to understand equality you have to understand what the other side has gone through you have to treat that with respect. It's not about "well, *they* should..." because you're not part of the they.
You've implied that the conversation is "all or nothing; everyone or no one." I don't mean that. I recognize that there are good and bad folks on both sides - and I hope you can do the same.
All White Privilege in the United States means, is that you are unconsciously treated differently than others. You're part of a group that rules most areas of the country, and you'll be treated the same way regardless. In your particular town if skin color is seen before the individual, then you can say White Privilege is at work. If you can't be seen as a person first, then you have to overcome that stigma before you can be accepted.
Know this, though - we're all in some kind of sinking boat, regardless. I'm certainly not rich but I'm grateful for clean water. I'm sorry you don't have clean water where you live, and that would frustrate me too. But it's not about not having. It's about everyone being treated equally, regardless of who they look like.
I would say this. To feel less guilty, or to get rid of the guilt, why not invite one of those eight people to dinner? Just you and that individual. Why not ask how they're feeling in the town? You might get flak from that person because they won't know your intentions at first. But if you hate that feeling of guilt, why not do something about it? Find out why they're angry and share stories. Listen to the other side. Find out why their frustrated and why they feel you should still pay for the past. Sometimes yeah, it's paranoia. Sometimes it's frustration. Sometimes it's misunderstanding.
But sometimes there's a reason for it, and if just one person stops bringing up excuses on either side, then sometimes a rift can be healed.
I'm not saying you have to feel guilty (read what I put above, about equality). I'm not saying you have to feel guilty about anything or pay for the past. What I *am* saying, however, is that in order to understand equality you have to understand what the other side has gone through you have to treat that with respect. It's not about "well, *they* should..." because you're not part of the they.
You've implied that the conversation is "all or nothing; everyone or no one." I don't mean that. I recognize that there are good and bad folks on both sides - and I hope you can do the same.
All White Privilege in the United States means, is that you are unconsciously treated differently than others. You're part of a group that rules most areas of the country, and you'll be treated the same way regardless. In your particular town if skin color is seen before the individual, then you can say White Privilege is at work. If you can't be seen as a person first, then you have to overcome that stigma before you can be accepted.
Know this, though - we're all in some kind of sinking boat, regardless. I'm certainly not rich but I'm grateful for clean water. I'm sorry you don't have clean water where you live, and that would frustrate me too. But it's not about not having. It's about everyone being treated equally, regardless of who they look like.
I would say this. To feel less guilty, or to get rid of the guilt, why not invite one of those eight people to dinner? Just you and that individual. Why not ask how they're feeling in the town? You might get flak from that person because they won't know your intentions at first. But if you hate that feeling of guilt, why not do something about it? Find out why they're angry and share stories. Listen to the other side. Find out why their frustrated and why they feel you should still pay for the past. Sometimes yeah, it's paranoia. Sometimes it's frustration. Sometimes it's misunderstanding.
But sometimes there's a reason for it, and if just one person stops bringing up excuses on either side, then sometimes a rift can be healed.
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I agree with some of this. But the discussion never stays this way. There are undertones: assumptions are made. Accusations are leveled. Which is why I said there's no point. People use statements and terms that are subjected to endless personal interpretation. For instance I do not feel that 'White Privilege' is used in the overall world debate as you do. There is an undertone of Plantation Owners, of Whites living in suburbia while Blacks suffer in the ghettos. While those groups exist, I do not identify with those whites and do not feel that the global implication that all white men are personally responsible for it is correct or helpful. Few here are privileged.
My arguments are not aimed at you: I like you and you are a good person judging from your posts. My issue is with the ... 'aura of racism and the racial divide' I suppose. The discussion, world wide in its entirety, dehumanizes everyone and lumps them into false groups that are then dumped upon each in turn. That's what is in my heart anyway. And I assume you've noticed from my past posts that it's my heart that directs my morals.
You misunderstand me. I feel no guilt. I do not discriminate, nor do I have enough to consider myself privileged, nor has my family back at least 3 generations. What I do feel is frustration and some anger at being painted with the racism brush (not by you personally, but by the overall discussion in the world).
I have to wonder, as I always do: does the discussion achieve its purpose? Does anyone who is racist ever change their mind due to it? I doubt it. The KKK still exists. How much of the racial discomfort on both sides is built or maintained simply due to the feeling of being constantly judged because of the labels and ideas built by these discussions? Am I really racist when I wonder if a non-white stranger across from me thinks I am? It makes me uncomfortable, wondering. That discomfort may be noticeable. And of course that makes me more uncomfortable. Is that due to racism, or due to my fear of being wrongly misjudjed?
In my personal life I don't divide people into colors. My friends are my friends regardless of skin-tone or genitalia. But I do get tired of being told (not by you) that I don't understand someone's pain and suffering due to being outcast or whatever other reason. If I had suffered more even a year ago I'd have taken my own life. I don't think I really need to understand the specific reasons to understand the experience of extreme emotional pain. And as an empath, I know the stories. I can instantly put myself in those shoes. I need no reminders of the pain that my non-white friends and my female friends go through. I simply refuse to be seen as separate from them because I enjoy a hypothetical privilege. I do not accept that I must be tossed into the 'Privileged White Man' box simply because influential white male assholes do bad things to people that are different from them.
I think that you bring up very good points. I am also white. I have also had similar battles as you. I dont take it personally anymore. I just try to be proactive. If it makes sense to say something I do. If I need to reflect on what I have been doing then I do. I just keep moving forward and realize that I am not perfect.
It is when people do not see it that I think it becomes a problem. We always want to take care not to repeat the past. There is a charge when people take about race issues and race relations. It goes back to the whole good, bad thing. Dont get me wrong. Racism is wrong. It is the act that is wrong. People are not good or bad the action is. I think this is why I find it easier to think about it. I try not to take it personally. But I do try to always do better.
I'm just going to throw these ideas out there (and are directed to no one individually). They spawn from observations I'd made in this thread and in real life.
I think people misunderstand racism and what needs to be done to battle it. The problem isn't that people are different races, but rather the differences our races create. People are different and we should embrace that fully, not just accept that people are different. The problem between the races (in America specifically, but can be extrapolated around the world) is a disparity of power and what the "ideal" is.
In America, the ideal way to be treated is to be treated like a white person. It's wrong (but somewhat innocent) to say I treat my black friends as if they were white. It's an insulting compliment, but in essence that's what we do. It would however be insulting to say, for example, I treat my white friends as if they were black. There are hidden stereotypes hidden behind race/ethnic differences. The power struggle must definitely exists.
How do we (and in my opinion) wrongly combat racial discrimination? We pull up the people who are being discriminated to the level of the people doing the discrimination. We gave black people freedom because white people had it. We didn't give it to them because we saw everyone as people, but because we saw it wrong for black people to be treated differently then white people, therein making the unspoken claim that black people should be treated like white people, thus making white people the "model" person.
The people in power can't give things to the oppressed and make them free/equal. They can do some things but all in all it only reinforces unspoken ideas and feelings that the oppressed is inferior to the oppressor and that the oppressed need to be more like the oppressor, thus dehumanizing the oppressed (and in part the oppressor).
To get ahead in America, you have to act the way a white man would act. That's not necessarily saying that all white people hate/discriminate against blacks, that's a very minimal way of looking at it. It goes beyond the persons to the culture. In our culture, the ideal way to act is like you're white. That's were racism and racial discrimination have its roots, and where we have to tackle the problem. Stop trying to fix it by treating everyone the same; we're not. Instead, embrace the differences and work at shifting the cultural norm that to be white is to have power.
I think people misunderstand racism and what needs to be done to battle it. The problem isn't that people are different races, but rather the differences our races create. People are different and we should embrace that fully, not just accept that people are different. The problem between the races (in America specifically, but can be extrapolated around the world) is a disparity of power and what the "ideal" is.
In America, the ideal way to be treated is to be treated like a white person. It's wrong (but somewhat innocent) to say I treat my black friends as if they were white. It's an insulting compliment, but in essence that's what we do. It would however be insulting to say, for example, I treat my white friends as if they were black. There are hidden stereotypes hidden behind race/ethnic differences. The power struggle must definitely exists.
How do we (and in my opinion) wrongly combat racial discrimination? We pull up the people who are being discriminated to the level of the people doing the discrimination. We gave black people freedom because white people had it. We didn't give it to them because we saw everyone as people, but because we saw it wrong for black people to be treated differently then white people, therein making the unspoken claim that black people should be treated like white people, thus making white people the "model" person.
The people in power can't give things to the oppressed and make them free/equal. They can do some things but all in all it only reinforces unspoken ideas and feelings that the oppressed is inferior to the oppressor and that the oppressed need to be more like the oppressor, thus dehumanizing the oppressed (and in part the oppressor).
To get ahead in America, you have to act the way a white man would act. That's not necessarily saying that all white people hate/discriminate against blacks, that's a very minimal way of looking at it. It goes beyond the persons to the culture. In our culture, the ideal way to act is like you're white. That's were racism and racial discrimination have its roots, and where we have to tackle the problem. Stop trying to fix it by treating everyone the same; we're not. Instead, embrace the differences and work at shifting the cultural norm that to be white is to have power.
I'm not that familiar with American educational system but I wonder why there is such a problem?
First I assume that you're speaking of public schools which are financed by taxpayers of the state. Second, there should be some legal financing scheme defining the rules on how money is distributed. Third, their records should be easily verifiable by the public and accountable to regulation. So how is it possible that these schools get less money than others? Wouldn't they be able to sue the authorities if that were true? There should be some objective cause here.
Indeed I do not have first-hand experience of this kind and will never have. My personal history hardly matters here. But that does not stop me from learning and trying to contribute towards solution. At least by asking questions.
There is no such thing as race. The closest we get to the concept of race is the assumption of culture based on appearances.
Racism is based on the assumption that people who look like this will behave like that.
The problem that causes racism is that enough people who look like this do in fact behave like that, as a culture, to create the stereotype. Once the stereotype is formed, it is exaggerated, and before you know it, there is a consensus expectation of behavior from people who look a certain way.
The problem with racism is that everyone is an individual, and appearance cannot imply behavior. Yet as human beings, we are predisposed to make blanket assumptions.
Racism is actually Culturalism, and when two cultures have opposing goals, ideals, motivations, and behaviors, those cultures will factionalize against one another, and even bolster their antagonistic behaviors. It doesn't matter if these two cultures appear physically identical, they will find methods of identifying one another by their differences.
Until humanity develops the ability to move beyond our instinct to form cultural factions of us verses them, we will never overcome racism, or any other type of ism. And unfortunately, as a species, this instinct is the reason we've been able to come this far, because it created competition that spawned most of the innovations that have allowed us to move from living as primates into the civilization we now enjoy. We are now ready to let go of this instinct, but like so many of our other instincts, they are difficult to release.
Racism is based on the assumption that people who look like this will behave like that.
The problem that causes racism is that enough people who look like this do in fact behave like that, as a culture, to create the stereotype. Once the stereotype is formed, it is exaggerated, and before you know it, there is a consensus expectation of behavior from people who look a certain way.
The problem with racism is that everyone is an individual, and appearance cannot imply behavior. Yet as human beings, we are predisposed to make blanket assumptions.
Racism is actually Culturalism, and when two cultures have opposing goals, ideals, motivations, and behaviors, those cultures will factionalize against one another, and even bolster their antagonistic behaviors. It doesn't matter if these two cultures appear physically identical, they will find methods of identifying one another by their differences.
Until humanity develops the ability to move beyond our instinct to form cultural factions of us verses them, we will never overcome racism, or any other type of ism. And unfortunately, as a species, this instinct is the reason we've been able to come this far, because it created competition that spawned most of the innovations that have allowed us to move from living as primates into the civilization we now enjoy. We are now ready to let go of this instinct, but like so many of our other instincts, they are difficult to release.
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Shai Gar
I agree with Solar Empath. I'm sorry for you mate. A lot of Australian farmers are in the same way and are not getting subsidised at all, they simply pack up and leave for the cities.
I was lucky enough to come from livestock not wheat (our main crop in Australia) so although I've been in the same country culture, I've not suffered the hardships. *hug*
Ask yourself though, are any of those skills or knowledge you've obtained over the years transferable to a university degree as recognised prior learning? with a possibility to get work over in Canada doing the same thing but for a possibly better?
I was lucky enough to come from livestock not wheat (our main crop in Australia) so although I've been in the same country culture, I've not suffered the hardships. *hug*
Ask yourself though, are any of those skills or knowledge you've obtained over the years transferable to a university degree as recognised prior learning? with a possibility to get work over in Canada doing the same thing but for a possibly better?
Aww, now I regret ignoring this thread because I was too lazy to click the link.
I adore that song.
Of course it doesn't describe race perfectly, but it does allow us to laugh at ourselves, which in my opinion is very important (albeit hard for me to keep in mind).
<sarcasm>And basically racism is awesome because it allows everyone to play the victim. </sarcasm>
A lot of people are bitter about racism. Not just blacks. Not just whites.
Oh and p.s.: scientifically speaking race doesn't exist.
I adore that song.
Of course it doesn't describe race perfectly, but it does allow us to laugh at ourselves, which in my opinion is very important (albeit hard for me to keep in mind).
<sarcasm>And basically racism is awesome because it allows everyone to play the victim. </sarcasm>
A lot of people are bitter about racism. Not just blacks. Not just whites.
Oh and p.s.: scientifically speaking race doesn't exist.
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