[PUG] Christiantiy

[Krumplenump]

I would split my questions to Christians depending on what we define as 'Christian'. The modern definition of the word has become far too varying and ambiguous.

These days, the term 'Christian' is just as aptly given to people who live peaceful, moral, empathetic lives as it is to those who haul a bunch of people off to Guyana to set up their own autocratic religious fifedoms and then poison everyone.

Likewise, the term is endlessly disputed over. For example: 'oh they are not PROPER Christians', or 'they don't act like Christians should'.

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If we leave all this unprecise bullshit out of the picture for a second and define a Christian as simply 'someone who believes in the Abrahamic god and believes the bible word for word' then my question would be:

1. How do you logically and mentally justify believing in all this 100% based on mere accounts and human-scrawled texts? (Polite way of asking 'Do you suffer from a neurological disorder?')

or 2. Do you think deep down it's a load of mind controlling hocus pocus but would rather verbally throw your lot in with the pious 'just in case'?

I'm bound to get negative reps for that and whatnot, but they're valid questions. If I get negative reps, it's certainly a sign of the times.

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The sort of things i'd ask the 'type' of Christian I first mentioned (humble, empathetic and moral) would be things along the lines of 'Why did you choose a faith that includes so much capriciousness and hate to model your empathetic, peace-loving lifestye on? Isn't that somewhat of a contradiction and therefore you are only a self-defined Christian, not a 'Christian' in it's accurate definition. Could you not have gained these principles of morality etc without Christianity?' (the answer to that of course is an undeniable 'yes')

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And I would ask the 'type' of Christians that form cults, sects and get power-hungry and autocratic 'I see you have taken much of the bible very literally, and as abhorrant as it may be I applaud your honesty. However, why does your humanist instinct not override this cruel manifestation of an essentially cruel and ancient doctrine? Are you consciously using it to justify long-held desires of power? Or have you managed to deceive yourself into thinking what you're doing is genuinly God's work and neccessary? If the former is the case you are manipulative, if the latter is the case you are simply retarded.'

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The kind I would ask to those 'types' of Christian that follow the above 'type' of Christian, would be: 'What's the matter with you? If you want to do mankind a service, it would be less harmful to mankind if you filled your apparant void with drink and drugs than with fanatical preachings of armageddon and the like, don't you think?'

 

[Barnabas]

well since this is no longer in a pax thread why not.

1. How do you logically and mentally justify believing in all this 100% based on mere accounts and human-scrawled texts? (Polite way of asking 'Do you suffer from a neurological disorder?')

I can't speak for everybody however I can give you my view. Like most conservative Christians I believe that the Bible is more then just mere scribbles on papyrus, instead I hold tot he view that it is divinely inspired literature conveyed through men from God. Now as for why I believe this, mostly on just because I know it's right( yes this probably isn't logical, I don't realy care), but also to a lesser extent on conpounding historical, archelogical, and prophetic accounts.

And no I do not suffer from any neurological disorders.


or 2. Do you think deep down it's a load of mind controlling hocus pocus but would rather verbally throw your lot in with the pious 'just in case'?

Not at all, I believe it.

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'I see you have taken much of the bible very literally, and as abhorrant as it may be I applaud your honesty. However, why does your humanist instinct not override this cruel manifestation of an essentially cruel and ancient doctrine? Are you consciously using it to justify long-held desires of power? Or have you managed to deceive yourself into thinking what you're doing is genuinly God's work and neccessary? If the former is the case you are manipulative, if the latter is the case you are simply retarded.'

I don't see anything cruel that you speak of in Christianity nor do I have lust for power that I'm trying to fufill.

but yes I do believe I'm following God's will for me and I believe it's more then neccessary it's esential.

And once again my doctor assures that despit being dropped on my head several times as an infant I'm both physicaly and mentaly stable.


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'What's the matter with you?

Many things are wrong with me, at the moment I'm suffering from a slight tooth ache. But I assure you there are no more things wrong with me the there are things wrong ith you.

If you want to do mankind a service, it would be less harmful to mankind if you filled your apparant void with drink and drugs than with fanatical preachings of armageddon and the like, don't you think?'

My mother would kill me if she found out I was using drugs and alchol to fill the apparent void in my soul.

That and no one will pay me to drink and do drugs, at least as a preacher I'll be able to scrape to pennies together.

 

[Satya]

Oh how fun. A PUG thread.

I think these sum up my views on the issue quite nicely...

 

[Barnabas]

I'm going to show the last one to my apologetics professor on tuesday, I think he'll get a kick out of it.

 

[Cecilff2]

1. How do you logically and mentally justify believing in all this 100% based on mere accounts and human-scrawled texts? (Polite way of asking 'Do you suffer from a neurological disorder?')

How do I logically and mentally justify everything else in the world I've been told is true and do not have the means to verify?
Continue to question it or understand it with what I have available.

2. Do you think deep down it's a load of mind controlling hocus pocus but would rather verbally throw your lot in with the pious 'just in case'?

Nope, just an answer to a question.

'Why did you choose a faith that includes so much capriciousness and hate to model your empathetic, peace-loving lifestye on? Isn't that somewhat of a contradiction and therefore you are only a self-defined Christian, not a 'Christian' in it's accurate definition. Could you not have gained these principles of morality etc without Christianity?'

Are we talking about the faith or certain individuals that have made up its congregation? I don't remember the "Hate God and your neighbor and yourself" passage. Christ's message was pretty consistent. Where does it say in the bible that only Christians can do moral things?

'What's the matter with you? If you want to do mankind a service, it would be less harmful to mankind if you filled your apparant void with drink and drugs than with fanatical preachings of armageddon and the like, don't you think?'

I'd recommend you make peace with whoever wronged you and look at the religion as people looking for answers just as you are.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Isn't that somewhat of a contradiction and therefore you are only a self-defined Christian, not a 'Christian' in it's accurate definition.

But the definition of Christian that you're using ('someone who believes in the Abrahamic god and believes the bible word for word') is not an "accurate" definition. A Christian is simply a person who believes in salvation through following the teachings of Jesus Christ, it doesn't say anything about having to interpret those teachings literally.

 

[Satya]

But the definition of Christian that you're using ('someone who believes in the Abrahamic god and believes the bible word for word') is not an "accurate" definition. A Christian is simply a person who believes in salvation through following the teachings of Jesus Christ, it doesn't say anything about having to interpret those teachings literally.

In all fairness, what a Christian is depends on which Christian you ask.

 

[the]

Believes the bible word for word? Are we including the apocrypha, or are we talking about just Baptists?

 

[enfp can be shy]

Old testament: An eye for an eye. New testament: Turn your other cheek. What does a Christian believe in? The word itself implies belief in Jesus. How does a Christian support wars then? They attacked us, they must pay? How come. Also, how does a Christian participates in the Friedman-based economy? Or they hope on this:

 

[just me]

I Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1:27-29
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His Presence.

He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. v 31

 

[Satya]

Hey just me, since we are doing the Bible quote thing now, can you explain a few for me?

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NASB

If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

2 Kings 2:23-24 NKJV

Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him,

 

[enfp can be shy]

Does that mean, we do what we want, regardless of the Bible, but we are always right, because Jesus saved us, as his unfaithful supporters, and not you, damned non-believers? If Jesus loves all people, why has the story about Hell and the Devil been told for so many centuries? Aren't all people saved already? I do understand conservative lag, but that's a lag of about 2 millennia.

Wait, don't tell me Jesus is not gonna save those who aren't believing in him? What if they were asleep; didn't hear about all the buzz. Tough luck?

 

[just me]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Sx45aQmIOc"]YouTube- Westlife - The Rose (With Lyrics)[/ame]

 

[just me]

Satya, my friend...been a long time. I have noticed change in you over the past couple of years or so....maybe it is just time teaching us both new things.

I understand the confusion, as I once had a Bible I underlined everything I did not understand in red ink. I buried that Bible with my real Father over 25 years ago. It took countless years for me to underline all that. It took years of studying to understand some of it and years of being mentored to understand even more. I cannot say I understand everything, as new things are revealed to those that seek them.

It seems more is revealed to those that earnestly seek the answers with a pure heart and have the patience to learn the entire text instead of grabbing at one or two verses. The more one gives of oneself to learn something, the more one learns.

Maybe you could possibly try the red ink underlining the things you do not understand and ask yourself if you truly want to understand and why? I have to say the heart won't lie.

 

[Satya]

Maybe you could possibly try the red ink underlining the things you do not understand and ask yourself if you truly want to understand and why? I have to say the heart won't lie.

I think if I were to take a red pen to the Bible, then my heart would see to it that I would end up crossing more things out than underlining. You seem to forget that the book is a compilation that was crafted by an assembly of men who debated about which books and letters should be included. It is difficult to take a book that was written, complied, and even edited by men, as the literal word of an almighty God or even necessarily inspired by one given its contradictory nature and obvious lack of logical consistency from one book to another. The genius of the book does not lie in its cultural myths, its supernatural themes, or its dogma. The genious is in a moral system reminiscent of far east philosophies that had migrated to the Middle East and which lended themselves well to being taught as parables. If I were to ever carry a Bible then it would probably be this one...

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

 

[Jana]

This is old discussion. I won't try to write answers to question about Christianity that are put in one of the earlier posts. I juts want to say few things.
1. You will not change my mind because of my possible answers, I won't change my mind because someone might find me insane because of my faith. But, why I have feeling that people who are not religion often like to repeat how smart they are. Be tolerant if you are smart!
2. I don't have all answers, I don't need them, I'll find it in a time. I just feel that for me there is no other way and I try to take that way, with good and bad sides. And, I have my doubts and my questions. They are part of me. But there is no way that guarantee peace in all moments of our lives. Doubts can be good.
3. People often misuderstood Christianity. They should not judge hole concept just because some Christians are narrow minded. We are all human and humans make mistakes.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

In all fairness, what a Christian is depends on which Christian you ask.

FWIW I was using the dictionary definition.

And now here's a monkey:

 

[Flavus Aquila]

But the definition of Christian that you're using ('someone who believes in the Abrahamic god and believes the bible word for word') is not an "accurate" definition. A Christian is simply a person who believes in salvation through following the teachings of Jesus Christ, it doesn't say anything about having to interpret those teachings literally.

Good point.
Biblical Fundamentalism is biblical fundamentalism, and not Christianity.
This is evident, if one admits that there were Christians before the books of the New Testament were written.

The Churches of Apostolic origin (ie. all those founded before the year 100aD, with an ordained hierarcy) interpret a large part of the Scriptures allegorically/metaphorically, in a way quite distinct from 'churches' established from the 1500's onwards.


Excuse my rant, but I have a pet-peeve with any group that breaks away or starts in opposition to an existing group/religion.... and then tries to claim that they are in fact the original or authentic group. I call such groups "rip-offs."

 

[muir]

It seems to me that there are countless systems created to guide people through life; Christianity is just one of these

Personally i feel if i limited myself to just one of these systems i would be afraid that i might be missing out on something else, or that the system might be wrong or that if the system was abused by others that their message might lead me astray

Seeing the world through the prism of one of these systems would, i think, be like viewing the world in monochrome instead of seeing all the colours of the rainbow

I think the individual should open their eyes and ears and heart to other possibilities. This doesn't mean discarding all of their religion. It means looking for what is universal among all beliefs, including their own as that is the common ground for all people

It is the common ground that should be strived for not the imaginary differences ('love thy neighbour')

 

[enfp can be shy]

I must clarify that my posts don't aim to bash Christianity; I tend to have positive view on it, even if I'm not involved in it. However I don't know why in practice Christians stick much more to the Old testament than the New testament. And these short notes:
- if Jesus loves everybody, and has saved everybody, what is there more to say or do; he didn't impose some special rules on people; he only asked them to love each other (if they can..), and to not participate in the economy - so why is it exactly the opposite in practice: Christian businessmen rule merciless competitive companies? Why are they often so nationalistic/racist?? Jesus said all people, not just the Jews, or just the Americans, or just the white race? Jesus didn't ask to only love people in near proximity, but literally everybody. To love even those with other beliefs, or who don't believe in anything; and even those who are enemies of one's belief.

I feel I'm more true to what Jesus said to people, without even believing in Jesus, than most people who claim to believe in Jesus. This is what I find strange. The other thing is the judgementalism; Jesus practically forgives everybody, he doesn't judge anyone. Why do so many who claim to believe in Jesus bash the killers, by murdering them, for example. Jesus was the one to go and save the killers from death penalty, and the lustful sinners from the crowd that wanted to lynch them. How come now in practice those who call themselves Christians support death penalties for murderers and so on. And support wars, even (implicitly) "holy" wars? It makes no sense, it makes me wonder why such Christians call themselves that way at all. This is the majority of Christians, but I'm not saying all are like that.

I'm actually thankful for the story of Jesus, whether he existed or not, because this story helped a lot of nasty cultural values to be reconsidered.