Perceiving versus Judging: Humbleness versus Pretentiousness?

[NeverAmI]

I know this is tough to think about, but these labels/definitions are on the extremes of both sides.

Perceivers are known to hold out on decisions, to be unassuming, not to jump to conclusions, that seems quite humble to me. I ask you not to judge based on people that claim to be a certain type, but rather on the jungian definitions of judging/perceiving.

Is there a direct causation between perceiving/judging and humbleness/pretentiousness?

Definitions (From Princeton):

Pretentious - making claim to or creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction;

Humble - cause to be unpretentious; "This experience will humble him"

Jungian Definitions (from http://changingminds.org/explanations/preferences/judging_perceiving.htm)

With Judgers:

• Present a timetable and stick to it (or provide maximum warning if not).
• Allow time to them to prepare.
• Show your achievements and results.
• Allow closure on consensus items, document those areas that require more work or discussion.
• Itemize achievements and decisions reached so far.
• Acknowledge the need for closure and short time schedules.

With Perceivers:

• Allow time for things to flow, not necessarily following your calendar.
• Bring in new ideas and possibilities.
• Acknowledge the time for creativity.
• Encourage autonomy and personal freedom.
• Realize changes in direction are not necessarily impulsiveness.

If you have better/different definitions, please share them in addition to your opinions!

 

[Roger]

Perceivers are known to hold out on decisions, to be unassuming, not to jump to conclusions, that seems quite humble to me. I ask you not to judge based on people that claim to be a certain type, but rather on the jungian definitions of judging/perceiving.

With Perceivers:

• Allow time for things to flow, not necessarily following your calendar.
• Bring in new ideas and possibilities.
• Acknowledge the time for creativity.
• Encourage autonomy and personal freedom.
• Realize changes in direction are not necessarily impulsiveness

This is my description. Yes, i can hold on for decision for long and I don't make multiple judgements.

I think, we ENFPs can do self-analysis in nice manner.

 

[Eric86]

I'd say no, it seems like more of an issue regarding the individual's maturity. I've seen some Ps who are very pretentious (particularly ones with overly prominent Fi that they allow to practically blind them to other's viewpoints and values), and Js who are very humble as well.
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[Billy]

Absolutely not, coming to a singular answer in your head doesn't mean you are judgmental it means your personality is just wired for decisive action. And for some of us, INFJs say we dont just arbitrarily pick some conclusion to stick to, we just pick what we feel is the best answer given the data at the time. Everything goes into making said choice. Which I think is why we can be so stubborn.

Humility is different though I have met P's who were extremely egocentric and arrogant. And Js who were just laid back.

I think when Js look silly is when they they spout off at the mouth a lot without considering the impact thier statements are having on those around them. Once a J learns to keep thier judgement back and just use it as a useful bench comparison while remaining open they tend to come off much better.

 

[NeverAmI]

Absolutely not, coming to a singular answer in your head doesn't mean you are judgmental it means your personality is just wired for decisive action. And for some of us, INFJs say we dont just arbitrarily pick some conclusion to stick to, we just pick what we feel is the best answer given the data at the time. Everything goes into making said choice. Which I think is why we can be so stubborn.

Humility is different though I have met P's who were extremely egocentric and arrogant. And Js who were just laid back.

I think when Js look silly is when they they spout off at the mouth a lot without considering the impact thier statements are having on those around them. Once a J learns to keep thier judgement back and just use it as a useful bench comparison while remaining open they tend to come off much better.

I kinda ran that through my head earlier and that exact thought came to me.

Couldn't you say that a P that is arrogant has a highly developed J or is a J instead and a J that has learned to be more humble has balanced out between the two?

 

[Billy]

I kinda ran that through my head earlier and that exact thought came to me.

Couldn't you say that a P that is arrogant has a highly developed P or is a J instead and a J that has learned to be more humble has balanced out between the two?

I am sure there are 100s of differnt ways someone can come across as any such thing for a dozen reasons.

I think in general J's just come to conclusions about their thoughts and environments because we like things cut and dry mentally. We will entertain new information, but for where we are at we usually like to know where we stand at any given moment. Because we tend to be a bit action oritended. Oh if I KNOW I feel this then I gotta do THIS. ya know?

As for P's being arrogant and such. I just see arrogance as a form of extroverted insecurity. Like I have to put a picture of myself into everyone's heads because I am afraid they will find out im actually just normal and boring.

I can see a J doing this for a means to an end. Protection of feelings, trying to fit in, trying to start a new life etc.

I can see a P doing this to protect their feelings, project an image of self worth, or in the case of Ne sometimes use it as a weapon to embarrass enemies. INFJs can do that too, but i tend to see it more in Ps as a form of protection whereas in INFJs it seems more utilitarian.

 

[bijo]

I don't think there is a correlation, though, based on my on experience with J types, they do tend to be more pressumtious than Ps.

 

[NeverAmI]

I am sure there are 100s of differnt ways someone can come across as any such thing for a dozen reasons.

I think in general J's just come to conclusions about their thoughts and environments because we like things cut and dry mentally. We will entertain new information, but for where we are at we usually like to know where we stand at any given moment. Because we tend to be a bit action oritended. Oh if I KNOW I feel this then I gotta do THIS. ya know?

As for P's being arrogant and such. I just see arrogance as a form of extroverted insecurity. Like I have to put a picture of myself into everyone's heads because I am afraid they will find out im actually just normal and boring.

I can see a J doing this for a means to an end. Protection of feelings, trying to fit in, trying to start a new life etc.

I can see a P doing this to protect their feelings, project an image of self worth, or in the case of Ne sometimes use it as a weapon to embarrass enemies. INFJs can do that too, but i tend to see it more in Ps as a form of protection whereas in INFJs it seems more utilitarian.

Yes, good argument! What about subservience vs pretentiousness?

 

[NeverAmI]

I'd say no, it seems like more of an issue regarding the individual's maturity. I've seen some Ps who are very pretentious (particularly ones with overly prominent Fi that they allow to practically blind them to other's viewpoints and values), and Js who are very humble as well.
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Thats a good point, thanks.

 

[Billy]

Mar argument has always been for J's vs P's that Js are naturally utilitarian in nature. They want systems of order that makes things flow. Whereas Ps don't fear the chaotic jumble of everything being possible. They might have a natural tendency to embrace that.

As for pretension vs subservience, lets define the terms so we know what we are taking about.

 

[Morgain]

Yes I don't think there is a correlation between J/P and humble/pretentious

you can be humble in a very J way, like an ISTJ and a ISFJ. Working for other people by organizing there lives to give one example

and you can be very pretentious in a P way like not holding on to your promises. Isn't the ESFP the performer? Performers can be very pretentious!

Mar argument has always been for J's vs P's that Js are naturally utilitarian in nature. They want systems of order that makes things flow. Whereas Ps don't fear the chaotic jumble of everything being possible. They might have a natural tendency to embrace that.

yes, I think so too

 

[enfp can be shy]

It's all interaction. We are very dynamic, and each of us has some form of P and J mode.

P / J = I / E of the first judging function in the list (F/T)

So it's about introversion and extroversion, in the end. Of course, from ancient times, extroverts are seen as less humble. It's what humble means - introverted.

EJ = true extroverts (choleric)
IJ = introverted extroverts (melancholic)
EP = extroverted introverts (sanguine)
IP = true introverts (phlegmatic)

Now add to that, EJ<->IP , IJ <-> EP type transformations, by reversing the order of their functions. It becomes more difficult to say who is what.

But also remember that
EJ/IP = T/F-dominant , the Judging functions, schizothymic, cold-sensitive
IJ/EP = N/S-dominant , the Perceiving functions, cyclothymic, happy-sad
So maybe this division is more accurate than P/J...

 

[Morgain]

you baffles me every time you write something like this! Not at all like the ENFP I know :w:

.

But also remember that
EJ/IP = T/F-dominant , the Judging functions, schizothymic, cold-sensitive
IJ/EP = N/S-dominant , the Perceiving functions, cyclothymic, happy-sad
So maybe this division is more accurate than P/J...

I have been wondering about this too.
While INFPs are P's they have a judging function as dominant
While INFJs are J's they have a perceiving function as dominant

maybe that is why both types seems so simular sometimes and why both types tend to have a balanced P/J score?

 

[enfp can be shy]

Yes, maybe. Similarly, INTPs and INTJs struggle all the time to decide which is which. I think you are well developed INFP, but you also surprise me often.

 

[Billy]

you baffles me every time you write something like this! Not at all like the ENFP I know :w:



I have been wondering about this too.
While INFPs are P's they have a judging function as dominant
While INFJs are J's they have a perceiving function as dominant

maybe that is why both types seems so simular sometimes and why both types tend to have a balanced P/J score?

I dont usually get the feeling that INFJs and INFPs are very similar, i mean some traits like the introversion are, but other then that every INFP I have ever known IRL has not been nearly close to an INFJ. I have had bad experiences with INFPs for the most part.

 

[bijo]

To me Js seek to narrow possibilities while Ps are satisfied with apprehension and judgement takes a backseat. Js seek order & controll while Ps are more accepting of accidental occurences and chaos.

 

[Moxie]

I think J and P are named strangely. Judging vs Perceiving. Judging sounds like Judgmental while P sounds like something more open-minded. Judging, the word sounds like the cop or the military and P sounds like the hippie flower child. I don't think either of those are accurate.

But reading the descriptions, it's always seemed to me like Billy said, J doesn't really read as judgmental, just action-oriented, while P is more flexible and less decisive. Action Oriented vs Possibility Oriented seem like a better fit to me.

 

[Questingpoet]

Personally, my J and P are extemely close. My "action" orientation vs. my "posibility" orientation really depend on the cirmustances. I can be totally opposite depending on the situation. And nice call there Moxie. I've always felt the verbage was confusing too.

 

[NeverAmI]

Thanks, all. I have come to the same conclusion. It was a random thought and seriously didn't have any sort of ill intentions. It was something I thought about on the way to work today.

I can definitely see some very arrogant P's, and my question was whether they are actually a P or a misclassed J. But I think, depending on the complex, you could be perceived differently.

Quite another reason I find it so hard to type people overall.

Thanks for you input!

 

[NeverAmI]

Yes, maybe. Similarly, INTPs and INTJs struggle all the time to decide which is which. I think you are well developed INFP, but you also surprise me often.

I have spent a lot of time analyzing my feelings, but I seek to understand them from a logical perspective. I have been incredibly out of character this whole time I have been on these forums. Then again, my online persona is much less inhibited than my physical persona.

In person, as anyone has seen me in the tinychat, I can be quite different. Anyone that has known me for an extensive period of time has a tough time seeing me as guided by emotions at all. However, I do believe tact has its place and if I logically deduce that tact is beneficial then I use it. If I think that someone suffering will be beneficial in the long run, then I am fine with that. As for moral values and judgements, I have never been as idealistic as I have been these past 6 months. I have been struggling to find deeper meaning once again, something I gave up on doing a long time ago.

Although my social anxiety built up over the years and created a lot of negative emotions. However, I tend to be depressed anyway due to my inquisitive nature but I try not to let it conrol me.

I have really siezed this opportunity to dig further into my feelings and it is really amazing how much self awareness and growth I have gotten from these forums.

I hope others have benefited as well!