[PUG] Patterns of the INFJ Forums

[slant]

I would like to state some observations I have seen lately that have not been brought up directly which I think should be addressed. I believe if the members of the INFJ forums would adhere or at least listen to some of these principles that there would be less conflict going about around these parts. I also think there would be a lot less ‘repeat’ threads, threads that touch upon the same sort of issues again and again. I am sure that many people are using these forums as an unhealthy escape that they consider a release, and I would like to offer to those who are interesting this advise. I thought it to be the most constructive rather than addressing every thread with remarkable similarities with the same answers.

1. Do not interfere with other people’s problems unless they ask for advice.
2 . You may be asked for advice, but that does not mean the receive parties of your advice will take it.
3. Do not have expectations for other people or events. Expectations lead to the biggest disappointments.
4. Roll with the punches. When things don’t go your way, find an alternative way.
5. Your opinions are personal to you. They are no one’s but your own.
6. Do not triangle. Refuse to listen to others venting about people you know or may know. If possible, eliminate the giving and receiving of ‘gossiping’ all together. If someone begins to talk negatively about someone in a non-constructive way, do not become involved.
7. Offer help to others when needed but realize the extent of help you can give. Do not help to the point of enabling.
8. Act, not react. Learn to control your emotions. Feel what you feel but do not live your feelings; remember that feelings are valid but they do not merit action. Logic alongside feeling should be put into making a decision.
9. Self reflect enough to be able to solve your own problems without involving others to much. At the same time, do not isolate yourself to the point where you are not open to receiving help.
10. Figure out your priorities and create real goals. Accomplish these goals, and do not stop creating goals.
11. Live by your standards, but do not push them upon others.
12. Realize that you are the only one who can decide to do something- do not rely on others to fulfill your dreams or goals for you, or comfort your emotional needs.
13. Learn to accept your mistakes and continue to make mistakes, your whole life. Mistakes are learning experiences. You will make a mistake until you learn to do it right. Accept that, and do not become overly frustrated with human imperfections.
14.You are not responsible for anyone else’s actions but your own and cannot control other people.
15. Fear is natural, but to be overcome. Work on your fears and realize which are rational and irrational, and work to remove yourself of unnecessary fears.
16. Overthinking is easy to do. Realize when you are doing this and stop yourself; worry does not prevent disasters, actions do. If you are thinking about something to much take action to relieve those thoughts- if you can do nothing, realize you can do nothing and seek other ways to feel at ease with your current circumstances.
17. Remain positive. Negative feelings and thoughts are okay, but too much gets us nowhere. For every bad side of the situation there is a positive.
18. Do things for you, not for others. This ties into expectations. If you decide to do a kind thing, decide to do it for your own reasons, not for the gratitude of others. If you decide to do a terrible thing, do it for your own personal reasons, not to invoke sadness or anger in another being.
19. Do not be afraid to express your feelings, but realize what is appropriate or not. Do not be afraid to go against the public to express yourself, but know the consequences and own up to them.
20. Do what you love. Love what you do.

Those were the first things that came to my mind and it would solve pretty much ALL of the problems I see expressed in the emotional support threads. I have made an emotional support thread before too so I admit to my part. After a while, these problems become repetitive and clear that no matter what you say the problem will persist and never be solved unless a person takes certain principles into their life.

I know that this is an MBTI centered forum so I understand why the focus so often is on MBTI. I do not visit the forums often anymore because every post I arrive to has to do with the type of people and assumptions made based on these categorizations. I think it is important to see people the way they are and not label them as anything but their name. This, I understand, is a personal belief. It depresses me to see all of the focus on types and persons, I feel, it depersonalizes the human race. Personality psychology is the most flawed of all psychological pursuits, or so goes my personal opinion.

I feel that the members of this forum use type as a way to gloss over their personal flaws and to a certain degree abandon responsibilities for certain traits. MBTI is set up in such a way that it states a person is born a certain personality type and remains that type- while they can develop other skills they have dominant skills that will always remain. This, in a sense, encourages the followers of MBTI to relate every aspect of their life to MBTI and attribute positive traits and negative traits of their personality and lifestyle to their MBTI type. They also attempt to relate and clan up to others of their type and believe these people are among the very few who can understand them, which creates cliques and arrogance. The belief that many members belong to a group of a statistical minority of the population encourages them to believe they are special, and in some ways, superior to other types and other peoples.

It creates a them vs. us mentality that creates subconscious discrimination against certain individuals with perceived traits. This is a frightening idea. MBTI was not originally intended to serve the purposes above, and I’m sure Carl Jung would be frightened to see such a following unfolding, for I have been concerned about my own participation and encouragement of this system.

I understand that this is a MBTI forum that is based on rigorous belief of these ideas and may or may not welcome criticism of the system. I’m putting forth these ideas because I feel they need to be addressed and have not seen relevant material to this. I have no questions to present, only my own view and ideas I have revealed.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

I am sure that many people are using these forums as an unhealthy escape that they consider a release, and I would like to offer to those who are interesting this advise.

After a while, these problems become repetitive and clear that no matter what you say the problem will persist and never be solved unless a person takes certain principles into their life.

I feel that the members of this forum use type as a way to gloss over their personal flaws and to a certain degree abandon responsibilities for certain traits.

I understand that this is a MBTI forum that is based on rigorous belief of these ideas and may or may not welcome criticism of the system. I

 

[Blind Bandit]

I won't get into this for many many reasons and most I will not explain over and over again.

Everyone is reasonable for their actions here. And thats where I'm going to leave it. And I can agree with slant on this and I've said this in the past.

This subject no matter how positive hits a nerve with me to some degree. Because not everything is as black and white as we would like to think.

 

[Siamese cat]

I would like to state some observations I have seen lately that have not been brought up directly which I think should be addressed. I believe if the members of the INFJ forums would adhere or at least listen to some of these principles that there would be less conflict going about around these parts. I also think there would be a lot less ‘repeat’ threads, threads that touch upon the same sort of issues again and again. I am sure that many people are using these forums as an unhealthy escape that they consider a release, and I would like to offer to those who are interesting this advise. I thought it to be the most constructive rather than addressing every thread with remarkable similarities with the same answers.

1. Do not interfere with other people’s problems unless they ask for advice.
2 . You may be asked for advice, but that does not mean the receive parties of your advice will take it.
3. Do not have expectations for other people or events. Expectations lead to the biggest disappointments.
4. Roll with the punches. When things don’t go your way, find an alternative way.
5. Your opinions are personal to you. They are no one’s but your own.
6. Do not triangle. Refuse to listen to others venting about people you know or may know. If possible, eliminate the giving and receiving of ‘gossiping’ all together. If someone begins to talk negatively about someone in a non-constructive way, do not become involved.
7. Offer help to others when needed but realize the extent of help you can give. Do not help to the point of enabling.
8. Act, not react. Learn to control your emotions. Feel what you feel but do not live your feelings; remember that feelings are valid but they do not merit action. Logic alongside feeling should be put into making a decision.
9. Self reflect enough to be able to solve your own problems without involving others to much. At the same time, do not isolate yourself to the point where you are not open to receiving help.
10. Figure out your priorities and create real goals. Accomplish these goals, and do not stop creating goals.
11. Live by your standards, but do not push them upon others.
12. Realize that you are the only one who can decide to do something- do not rely on others to fulfill your dreams or goals for you, or comfort your emotional needs.
13. Learn to accept your mistakes and continue to make mistakes, your whole life. Mistakes are learning experiences. You will make a mistake until you learn to do it right. Accept that, and do not become overly frustrated with human imperfections.
14.You are not responsible for anyone else’s actions but your own and cannot control other people.
15. Fear is natural, but to be overcome. Work on your fears and realize which are rational and irrational, and work to remove yourself of unnecessary fears.
16. Overthinking is easy to do. Realize when you are doing this and stop yourself; worry does not prevent disasters, actions do. If you are thinking about something to much take action to relieve those thoughts- if you can do nothing, realize you can do nothing and seek other ways to feel at ease with your current circumstances.
17. Remain positive. Negative feelings and thoughts are okay, but too much gets us nowhere. For every bad side of the situation there is a positive.
18. Do things for you, not for others. This ties into expectations. If you decide to do a kind thing, decide to do it for your own reasons, not for the gratitude of others. If you decide to do a terrible thing, do it for your own personal reasons, not to invoke sadness or anger in another being.
19. Do not be afraid to express your feelings, but realize what is appropriate or not. Do not be afraid to go against the public to express yourself, but know the consequences and own up to them.
20. Do what you love. Love what you do.

Those were the first things that came to my mind and it would solve pretty much ALL of the problems I see expressed in the emotional support threads. I have made an emotional support thread before too so I admit to my part. After a while, these problems become repetitive and clear that no matter what you say the problem will persist and never be solved unless a person takes certain principles into their life.

I know that this is an MBTI centered forum so I understand why the focus so often is on MBTI. I do not visit the forums often anymore because every post I arrive to has to do with the type of people and assumptions made based on these categorizations. I think it is important to see people the way they are and not label them as anything but their name. This, I understand, is a personal belief. It depresses me to see all of the focus on types and persons, I feel, it depersonalizes the human race. Personality psychology is the most flawed of all psychological pursuits, or so goes my personal opinion.

I feel that the members of this forum use type as a way to gloss over their personal flaws and to a certain degree abandon responsibilities for certain traits. MBTI is set up in such a way that it states a person is born a certain personality type and remains that type- while they can develop other skills they have dominant skills that will always remain. This, in a sense, encourages the followers of MBTI to relate every aspect of their life to MBTI and attribute positive traits and negative traits of their personality and lifestyle to their MBTI type. They also attempt to relate and clan up to others of their type and believe these people are among the very few who can understand them, which creates cliques and arrogance. The belief that many members belong to a group of a statistical minority of the population encourages them to believe they are special, and in some ways, superior to other types and other peoples.

It creates a them vs. us mentality that creates subconscious discrimination against certain individuals with perceived traits. This is a frightening idea. MBTI was not originally intended to serve the purposes above, and I’m sure Carl Jung would be frightened to see such a following unfolding, for I have been concerned about my own participation and encouragement of this system.

I understand that this is a MBTI forum that is based on rigorous belief of these ideas and may or may not welcome criticism of the system. I’m putting forth these ideas because I feel they need to be addressed and have not seen relevant material to this. I have no questions to present, only my own view and ideas I have revealed.

These are the patterns of every forum that was made after a specific idea or point. And although there are slight variations, the patterns of social dynamics are the same.

I agree very much with the advices that you've given, they would probably solve every problem ever introduced in that part of the forum, but what you forget is that although someone asked for the advice or stated that they wanted to solve their problem it doesn't mean that they are emotionally ready for that. And being in a serious situation (divorce, family problems, bullying...) one might know what you so rationally stated but is in a irrational state of mind and getting back to rational is tough and some people need to be told what they already know. And sometimes it is better just to give affirmation to someone than offer concrete advice, and the ones who are aware that this is a forum, that most of us don't know others very well, and that what was told by the one seeking advice probably isn't the whole story, then offering plain advice might not be the best choice.

The part revolving around the constant use of MBTI stereotypes is pretty common and to be expected because firstly human brain has a need to understand the situation as a whole, to find the explanation that will combine everything (and the use of MBTI stereotypes here is one of that ways) - for some reason I have a feeling that enfp can be shy would explain this better if he were to understand what I wanted to say - and other reason for that behavior is that when found in a place where people have limited knowledge about each other, they tend to use what they know that they have in common to make bonds, and here those are MBTI stereotypes.

Here you have several them vs us mentality situations, like mods vs the rest of us, Christians vs others, infjs vs others, recently vodka drinkers vs gin lovers (just kidding but it is a good example). That is also normal and to be expected, and to my knowledge these groups tend to mix and obviously people overcome these differences. And forming a smaller groups is to be expect also because people here use other means of communication besides forum, there are social groups, msn, facebook, chats and other places where forum members make lets say deeper connections and that is sometimes visible on the forum, but I don't see why that should be the problem.

What you said, in my opinion, relates fully only to a very small percentage of the forum, I don't think that everyone here are so dead serious, and that things are so black and white.

But I'm relatively new here, and my previously stated experiences and conclusions are based on the participation in one to many forums in the past, not solely on this one, so I might be wrong to some degree.

 

[NeverAmI]

I feel that the members of this forum use type as a way to gloss over their personal flaws and to a certain degree abandon responsibilities for certain traits. MBTI is set up in such a way that it states a person is born a certain personality type and remains that type- while they can develop other skills they have dominant skills that will always remain. This, in a sense, encourages the followers of MBTI to relate every aspect of their life to MBTI and attribute positive traits and negative traits of their personality and lifestyle to their MBTI type. They also attempt to relate and clan up to others of their type and believe these people are among the very few who can understand them, which creates cliques and arrogance. The belief that many members belong to a group of a statistical minority of the population encourages them to believe they are special, and in some ways, superior to other types and other peoples.

It creates a them vs. us mentality that creates subconscious discrimination against certain individuals with perceived traits. This is a frightening idea. MBTI was not originally intended to serve the purposes above, and I

 

[Questingpoet]

I would like to state some observations I have seen lately that have not been brought up directly which I think should be addressed. I believe if the members of the INFJ forums would adhere or at least listen to some of these principles that there would be less conflict going about around these parts. I disagree, for the most part I see far less conflict than in most RL and forum situations. I also think there would be a lot less

 

[slant]

What you are asking here is for the people to quit posting the way they do.

This was never stated. I am only sharing an opinion.

Again, I don't see anymore of this than you would see in real life. You're not going to stop this by stating it. Don't see it as an issue here.

It may not help you but it might help another person. I am doing my part to offer advice to the very grasping hands of these forums. Like I also stated, I felt the need to post it all in one place rather than just post the same lines on every advice thread that comes around. I believe that most if not all problems I have seen on these forums can be solved with one of these twenty 'principles', and by offering them here if I could help one person realize something about themselves before they post I would be grateful.

I do not believe that venting helps anyone unless it is constructive, and unfortunately, it is clear that the majority people who come here for advice ignore the advice and are simply looking for emotional support. This by itself is fair, though not desirable. What ends up happening is that these people depend on others to an emotional degree that they do not know how to solve their own problems without venting to several people. That can get you into a degree of trouble, and paint yourself as a negative person who always has a problem. Venting is fair and a healthy human emotional reaction but it is being overused as a crutch.

If you don't like the demeanor, you can chose to not participate. I hope you don't (although it sound like you already have), you are a valuable member that I've come to respect and enjoy.

I have decided to avoid the emotional support thread altogether, but it seems that those events spill onto the rest of the forum. I have been quite busy lately so I haven't had the time that I used to in which to post on these forums. But, I do admit, a lot of my lack of posting is because of my recent change in viewpoint of these forums. These forums didn't change; I did, and I am just giving the general public a chance to relate to the opinions I am expressing. I've seen a few who agree to a degree.

 

[Questingpoet]

Well, I certainly don't disagree with everything you've put here in this thread. I realize you are stating opinions AND offering advice to an extent. I would have kept it shorter and more concise if I were you though, things tend to sound more preachy when they drag on. And although, no...you did not state that you wanted people to quit posting the way they do, it is implicitly implied. Is this just my INFJ self reading between the lines?

Whether it is or not, its how I feel. That's my point that you are missing Slant. INJF's are going to react to your post based on how it makes them feel first and foremost. Any sound logic and reasoning (and there is a lot in there) will be secondary. If you really want to get your point across here, you have to come from a place of feeling first. I'm not saying you don't, it just doesn't show.

Sorry if this sounds like leaning on type as you talked about, but I think this is going to be true for many here (not all). If I've learned anything at all, it's that even within a specific type (such as INFJ), there can be great variation. There just tends to be more commonality with the same type as opposed to different ones though.

I respect what you are trying to do here. I'm only pointing out what I think were issues with the approach. And again, this is only my opinion. Some will be perfectly fine with it. If I've come across like I'm trying to speak for everyone, that was not my intention. However, I know there are a certain number of people that will take this the way I did, but won't say anything. They will simply feel less comfortable now about posting "Advice" threads and that is what I don't want to see happen.

 

[slant]

Actually, I do not think this will effect the flow of the emotional support threads, and if it does my belief is that it will effect it in a positive way. If people are not posting much in those areas, it wouldn't be out of fear, it would be out of a lack of need. However, I don't expect a decline of threads or any of the repeat problems to magically be solved by offering my opinion, but now I can say that I tried. I did not sit back and let my opinion be unheard, my advice to shrivel away. I said what I had to say and the rest is up to the INFJ members. I will not be making any more threads in the emotional support thread until the end of my reign here. This was a personal decision that I made, but perhaps others will also reflect upon these aspects and make a similar choice or at least consider the advice I have given them. This is my solution, now I no longer feel part of the problem.

At the same arm's length I must understand that the infj forums may WANT to be discussing these things, and that it is not a lack of understanding that is the problem it is my lack of understanding. In which, if the last option is the correct one, it is my problem, not the INFJ forums.

 

[NeverAmI]

Well, when you feel like you hit rock bottom it is certainly nice to have a hand to help pull you up.

One should always ask whether the hand is actually pulling up or dragging downward. That will always remain a personal decision. Eventually one must take self-accountability for life and stop blaming external circumstance and stop looking for handouts, emotional or otherwise.

Be thankful for the comfort you receive, but do not take greedily and never expect it from others. Comfort is not owed to you, and I have found it is only harmful to the self to believe otherwise.

There is nothing wrong with compassion, although blind validation can cause havoc in certain circumstances. I have seen that many times. It seems too easy to put the hardest, most difficult tasks off for another day. What is the hardest task but to challenge yourself?


This is not directed towards anyone, simply reflections.

 

[slant]

I propose a self improvement discussion area, aimed at self improvement, inspirational content and positive upbeat attitudes.

 

[Questingpoet]

I would second that.

 

[Siamese cat]

I propose a self improvement discussion area, aimed at self improvement, inspirational content and positive upbeat attitudes.

+1

 

[TinyBubbles]

I propose a self improvement discussion area, aimed at self improvement, inspirational content and positive upbeat attitudes.

isn't the whole forum already sort of centered around that premise?

 

[enfp can be shy]

I couldn't see what's so "wrong" with most of these.

 

[Ria]

wow... I took a couple of days off and just logged on now. Interesting thoughts, Slant.

I guess I tend to carry on too much about worrying about my type. That's why I decided to give this place a break for a while, as I felt I was being unfair to other people here. I was honestly being even too annoying for myself...

 

[54192&#cmy]

This is a joke right?

 

[sumone]

Slant, most of what you said is just common sense.
Your confusion about NF's is that you see the surface and not below. Often I have noticed that you will post "Nf's think this" or "Nf's do this or that for ** reason". You are off mostly because you do not understand the connection or underlying current that we have as a group. It's not something you can learn by reading a forum, you have to be able to feel it too. It's not unusual for some to see certain strengths of ours as weaknesses simply because they don't understand.

 

[Morgain]

come on slant

all the advice you give, I can read in a book.
If reading the book had helped, I wouldn't have been here

a lot of emotional treads are started just to vent a problem or to find some simpathy, someone who cares, someone who listens. A lot of members lack real live people who understands them. I lack people who really understand me. Being able to vent on this forum helped me to improve my real life and real life relationships, not reading a book with good advice. The forum is not about giving advice and helping others, it is about sharing thoughts, listening and being there for each other. If you are irritated by these treads, why don't you just ignore them?

Everone who needs help is free to start an emotional support tread. Even if it is going over and over again. Maybe one person learns something from the first time, an other one needs 20 times. Who are we to judge other peoples paths? who are we to state that they don't learn anything. Is this through? Do you know these persons well enough to make an assumption like that? And why do they have to learn something? Who are we to state that they are disfunctional? And also, I learn a lot from reading other peoples strugglings in life so you have no idea what the effect and benefits are from these kind of posts, no idea at all!

secondly, I also use MBTI to wrap my mind on things. It is not because I lable people inhere with an MBTI code, that I do that all the time in real life. This is for me the place to play with that. It is just a structure to learn about different behaviour patterns. To learn how other people behave so we can all live harmoniously together. And the label helps with that.

They also attempt to relate and clan up to others of their type and believe these people are among the very few who can understand them, which creates cliques and arrogance.

I believe this because it is a fact. I have never ever in my life been in a place where so many people are that know exactly what I'm talking about. And it may be a coinsidence that this is surprisingly an INFJ forum, but I don't believe it is a coinsidence.

 

[Ria]

come on slant

all the advice you give, I can read in a book.
If reading the book had helped, I wouldn't have been here

a lot of emotional treads are started just to vent a problem or to find some simpathy, someone who cares, someone who listens. A lot of members lack real live people who understands them. I lack people who really understand me. Being able to vent on this forum helped me to improve my real life and real life relationships, not reading a book with good advice. The forum is not about giving advice and helping others, it is about sharing thoughts, listening and being there for each other. If you are irritated by these treads, why don't you just ignore them?

Everone who needs help is free to start an emotional support tread. Even if it is going over and over again. Maybe one person learns something from the first time, an other one needs 20 times. Who are we to judge other peoples paths? who are we to state that they don't learn anything. Is this through? Do you know these persons well enough to make an assumption like that? And why do they have to learn something? Who are we to state that they are disfunctional?

secondly, I also use MBTI to wrap my mind on things. It is not because I lable people inhere with an MBTI code, that I do that all the time in real life. This is for me the place to play with that. It is just a structure to learn about different behaviour patterns. To learn how other people behave so we can all live harmoniously together. And the label helps with that.



I believe this because it is a fact. I have never ever in my life been in a place where so many people are that know exactly what I'm talking about. And it may be a coinsidence that this is surprisingly an INFJ forum, but I don't believe it is a coinsidence.

Thanks Morgain, I felt less foolish after reading this, xx