[PUG] Osama Bin Laden is dead Part II

[Barnabas]

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles
-Proverbs 24:17

This reminds me of some old saying about a sword

 

[Norton]

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles
-Proverbs 24:17

This reminds me of some old saying about a sword

I'm more interested that justice has been done, but, to paraphrase Twain, I enjoyed reading Bin Laden's obituary.

 

[the]

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles
-Proverbs 24:17

This reminds me of some old saying about a sword

A sword in the hand is worth two in the bush?

 

[bickelz]

So basically you like Sgt's and below and dislike generals, and want to pay them all less. Am I close?

Meh, I think that's a way to interpret what I said but it's not so cut and dry. I don't like what the military does but I don't hate anyone in particular. For example, I'm sure I would like Bush as a person but I hate his policies. Does that make sense?

I respect the military more than any other profession in this country.

The military protects your freedom to do what you want, say what you will, be who you are, and actualize your life in a free society. It stands between Americans' often unappreciated freedoms and the dangerous, rigid, authoritarian, freedom hating, corrupt societies you find in Venezuela, Belarus, North Korea, Syria, Burma (the name, Myanmar, is illegitimate) and the global islamo-fascist caliphate envisioned by Bin Laden and his surviving minions.

Aren't you lucky we have a strong military? If you don't think so, I guess you don't appreciate your good fortune. But, among the protected freedoms too often demonstrated in our society is self-righteous ignorance and entitlement. There should be a draft.

oooo no draft here buddy. If they do the draft then reinstate DADT because I'll come out the first day. And our "freedom" isn't all that threatened.

That's fine that you respect the military but just realize that all we need is a Navy. So when Reublicans talk about cutting unnecessary programs that aren't constitutional (explicitly), we could completely cut the army, marines and air force.

This islamo-fascist caliphate is Glenn Beck's idea. Yeah, I watch him from time to time and this is the stupidest theory ever for one reason. That reason is the assumption that it will be violent. Believe it or not, the Arab violence, specifically against Israel, is not completely unjustified.

And the countries you mentioned "Venezuela, Belarus, North Korea, Syria, Burma" have no real chance of bringing down the United States democracy. This is all fear mongering. If you think these guys will storm the beaches, you honestly need a reality check. The truth is that no civilian has died from a terrorist attack or act of war in the united states since 2001 yet over 11,000 people die a year from firearm homicide. You have more of a chance of being killed by your neighbor than a Venezuelan.

I think you're right that self righteousness and entitlement are problems in this country but this has nothing to do with social programs or freedoms. It has to do with Christians thinking they are entitled to the country and that we were founded solely on christian values.

 

[Chamomile]

Well, Imo.... saying you don't support the military but you support the troops seems to be more for the sayer than anything else... that's like saying you support your kid at college, but that their major is pointless, an abomination, and will never go anywhere. It may make the parent feel better, but their kid probably feels like crap and anything but supported.

 

[bickelz]

Well, Imo.... saying you don't support the military but you support the troops seems to be more for the sayer than anything else... that's like saying you support your kid at college, but that their major is pointless, an abomination, and will never go anywhere. It may make the parent feel better, but their kid probably feels like crap and anything but supported.

If my brother is in the army and I don't support what the army does, I will still support my brother because he's just a person. I can't hate him personally because if he wasn't in the military, someone else would be doing that same job that he is now. I hate the job, not the person doing the job.

This might seem weird but I know other people who have stances like this on other issues.

For example, I have an uber conservative friend. He has nothing against gay people but will not support gay marriage. When I tell him that I am gay, he will support me but not certain rights the gay community is fighting for. Ok, I think this is a case that is a bit ridiculous but it illustrates what I'm talking about. Person vs policy.

You can hate the policy and not the person. I view them as different. Ambiguous? Probably and maybe that's where people are misunderstanding me. I don't feel that it is a contradiction though.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

Well, Imo.... saying you don't support the military but you support the troops seems to be more for the sayer than anything else... that's like saying you support your kid at college, but that their major is pointless, an abomination, and will never go anywhere. It may make the parent feel better, but their kid probably feels like crap and anything but supported.

Hey, the kid might know their parents feel that way, not agree with it, and yet still appreciate care packages, letters, etc from said parents.

 

[Chamomile]

Hey, the kid might know their parents feel that way, not agree with it, and yet still appreciate care packages, letters, etc from said parents.

I'm sure some would appreciate it anyway. I'm also sure some would resent it. For those that are in the military for other reasons, it probably wouldn't bother them. But some in the military agree with what they're being told to do (my sister is one), so I don't see why it would apply to them.

 

[Chamomile]

Well, Imo...

I'm not misunderstanding, just disagreeing.

 

[myself]

I respect a teacher, a farmer, a nurse, a janitor, a caretaker.

I respect the military more than any other profession in this country.

The military protects your freedom to do what you want, say what you will, be who you are, and actualize your life in a free society.

Aren't you lucky we have a strong military? If you don't think so, I guess you don't appreciate your good fortune. But, among the protected freedoms too often demonstrated in our society is self-righteous ignorance and entitlement. There should be a draft.

I don't see how our military has done much to protect us from attacks here at home.

Terrorism can not be destroyed with force. War will just perpetuate more terror.

The money and lives spent on destruction could be used in more constructive, less violent ways.

Let's get past the obsession with war.

I understand we live in a dangerous world and there are hate-filled folks out there on the war path.
Let's not be so quick to join them. Why add fuel to the fire?

I can not be proud of our nation for the senseless killing we bring to people in other parts of the world.

Do we really need to be spread out all over the globe in order to keep the peace here at home?

I imagine it'd be difficult to find a handful of noble warriors in our military today.

Blood lust and insanity are not noble qualities.

If our wars were truly justified, I'd be cheering on anyone interested in signing up.

Sadly, I suspect our great leader is not trustworthy.

What sense is there in supporting this war machine?
Who profits from all of this war?

If an american soldier is fighting to protect us from harm, I think that is wonderful and commendable.

Unfortunately, this really is not the case. I fail to see any good reason for our fighting.

Offering yourself as the ultimate sacrifice for a few crooked politicians is not noble or honorable, it is rather tragic.

Military fails so hard.
War is a massive waste of potential.

An elite few are making a ton of money off all of this nonsense, that is for certain.

Noble warriors, not so much.

 

[Norton]

oooo no draft here buddy. If they do the draft then reinstate DADT because I'll come out the first day. And our "freedom" isn't all that threatened.

Buddy--Gay people have a lot at stake in protecting their freedoms, some of which are just recently gained, and some of which will hopefully soon be gained. Bin Laden was no friend of gays. Rather, he probably preferred decapitating gays.

The reason our "'freedom' isn't all that threatened" is because we have a strong military, which you seem not to appreciate.

That's fine that you respect the military but just realize that all we need is a Navy. So when Reublicans talk about cutting unnecessary programs that aren't constitutional (explicitly), we could completely cut the army, marines and air force.

Ridiculous, naive, and irrational, but I would point out that SEALs are a part of the Navy.

This islamo-fascist caliphate is Glenn Beck's idea. Yeah, I watch him from time to time and this is the stupidest theory ever for one reason. That reason is the assumption that it will be violent. Believe it or not, the Arab violence, specifically against Israel, is not completely unjustified.

Oh, so it's not unjustified for Arabs to blow up Israeli buses, thereby explicitly targeting civilians, but, when the United States kills a mass murderer this elicits chest pounding and grave moral concerns among a self-flagellating minority who decry the joy most Americans feel about Bin Laden's demise. That justice has been done doesn't seem to affect the chest pounders among us.

By the way, I use the term "islamo-fascism" in the same way Christopher Hitchens uses it. Glenn Beck is a total flake who hasn't taken his Risperdal in years.

And the countries you mentioned "Venezuela, Belarus, North Korea, Syria, Burma" have no real chance of bringing down the United States democracy. This is all fear mongering. If you think these guys will storm the beaches, you honestly need a reality check. The truth is that no civilian has died from a terrorist attack or act of war in the united states since 2001 yet over 11,000 people die a year from firearm homicide. You have more of a chance of being killed by your neighbor than a Venezuelan.

I'm not concerned that any of those countries would invade us--you complete missed, and mis-argued, the point. These countries either are remnants or current manifestations of failed authoritarian regimes, which were existential threats to the West. You are too young to remember the Cold War (not to mention specific incidents of it like the Cuban Missile Crisis) so, obviously, you don't know the real threats to freedom with which we all lived.

Now, in case you haven't noticed, America, the West and other parts of the world, are actively threatened and sometimes attacked by terrorists who are mostly islamists. And, your solution to this threat is to get rid of the military except for the Navy? Real smart!

Minorities such as gays particularly appreciate the importance of a strong defense. Do you think that, just maybe, that's why many gay people want to be able to serve their country openly like other patriotic Americans? Nah--you probably just don't get it.

 

[Chamomile]

I don't see how our military has done much to protect us from attacks here at home.

Unless you have one heck of a security clearance, how would you know?

 

[bickelz]

Buddy--Gay people have a lot at stake in protecting their freedoms, some of which are just recently gained, and some of which will hopefully soon be gained. Bin Laden was no friend of gays. Rather, he probably preferred decapitating gays.

"Probably" isn't a good argument. The westboro baptist church said 9/11 was coming to us because of gay people. It's not all warm and fuzzy here.

The reason our "'freedom' isn't all that threatened" is because we have a strong military, which you seem not to appreciate.

The reason others lives are at stake is because of our military. And freedom has nothing to do with war. It has to do with the right to choose. You cannot fight an ideal. That shit is for sensors.

Ridiculous, naive, and irrational, but I would point out that SEALs are a part of the Navy.

Ok? Point being that we could expand the navy while we de-fund the rest of the armed forces would still be constitutional. No argument here.

Oh, so it's not unjustified for Arabs to blow up Israeli buses, thereby explicitly targeting civilians, but, when the United States kills a mass murderer this elicits chest pounding and grave moral concerns among a self-flagellating minority who decry the joy most Americans feel about Bin Laden's demise. That justice has been done doesn't seem to affect the chest pounders among us.

I don't think you understand the history between Israel and Palestine if you make claims like this. I studied it from the point of the Palestinians in school and trust me, Israelis stole their land and then proceeded to kill innocent Palestinian children.

Now, in case you haven't noticed, America, the West and other parts of the world, are actively threatened and sometimes attacked by terrorists who are mostly islamists. And, your solution to this threat is to get rid of the military except for the Navy? Real smart!

Never said that. Just said that it would be constitutional.

Minorities such as gays particularly appreciate the importance of a strong defense. Do you think that, just maybe, that's why many gay people want to be able to serve their country openly like other patriotic Americans? Nah--you probably just don't get it.

Umm. I don't get what this proves but yes some lgb people want to serve openly, no arguing that. But saying lgbt loves defense is a false generalization. We want protection of social rights, not defense from terrorists that don't have the funding to pull off attacks.

 

[the]

You cannot fight an ideal. That shit is for sensors.

How do you figure (in the sense that sensors want to fight ideals)?

 

[Edith]

That's fine that you respect the military but just realize that all we need is a Navy. So when Reublicans talk about cutting unnecessary programs that aren't constitutional (explicitly), we could completely cut the army, marines and air force.

Just addressing this point -- no way. Do you have any idea how the military works? Granted I have not studied the current American military (right now my modern warfare class is at WW1-WW2) but the way most things work (or worked at that point) is through all arms integrated. You can't just chop off a limb because its cheaper. All aspects need to work together for true effectiveness. That's why the German's Panzer Division in WW2 was so initially successful.

ETA: What the fuck? How is getting rid of every part of the military except for the navy constitutional? I would really like to know because it seems like a ridiculous idea to me.

 

[myself]

Our military is effectively terrifying.
A truly noble warrior would not volunteer to fight for this country unless they were completely brain washed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMM-kqngHc8"]YouTube - 'US can't accept it created Bin Laden & Al Qaeda'[/ame]

 

[Edith]

You don't believe someone can put a country's needs before their own?

+ the military isn't all warfare. Many army personnel are deployed on peace-keeping missions, you know.

 

[Norton]

"Probably" isn't a good argument. The westboro baptist church said 9/11 was coming to us because of gay people. It's not all warm and fuzzy here.



The reason others lives are at stake is because of our military. And freedom has nothing to do with war. It has to do with the right to choose. You cannot fight an ideal. That shit is for sensors.




Ok?........

The best way to exhaust an INTP is to be illogical, irrational, ignorant of facts, distortional, and irrelevant. You, a gay teen, who has benefits to the extreme from our liberal society despite our ascendant radical conservative fringe, continually disparage the people who sacrifice to make your good life possible. I've got better things to do than argue with your kind of chest beating, entitled irrationality. I'm gone from this thread because I have better things to do with my time. This has nothing to do with the INFJ personality type. I've got four INFJ's in my family, unlikely as it may seem, and that's why I'm here.

 

[myself]

The best way to exhaust an INTP is to be illogical, irrational, ignorant of facts, distortional, and irrelevant. You, a gay teen, who has benefits to the extreme from our liberal society despite our ascendant radical conservative fringe, continually disparage the people who sacrifice to make your good life possible. I've got better things to do than argue with your kind of chest beating, entitled irrationality. I'm gone from this thread because I have better things to do with my time. This has nothing to do with the INFJ personality type. I've got four INFJ's in my family, unlikely as it may seem, and that's why I'm here.

I don't appreciate the spirit you are attempting to propagate.

Please GTFO INFJ's forums.

 

[bickelz]

Just addressing this point -- no way. Do you have any idea how the military works? Granted I have not studied the current American military (right now my modern warfare class is at WW1-WW2) but the way most things work (or worked at that point) is through all arms integrated. You can't just chop off a limb because its cheaper. All aspects need to work together for true effectiveness. That's why the German's Panzer Division in WW2 was so initially successful.

ETA: What the fuck? How is getting rid of every part of the military except for the navy constitutional? I would really like to know because it seems like a ridiculous idea to me.

I really don't want to be a dick but if you're from New Zealand, questioning how things are or are not constitutional is something you have to know more about than WW2 and the US involvement in it. The constitution only calls for a Navy so it would be legal to cut off other branches of military.

You might not know this, but we outspend the REST OF THE WORLD on our military. That's way too fucking much. And the GOP is all about SS and Medicare cutting so that old people can wither and die in misery while keeping the military over funded.

+ the military isn't all warfare. Many army personnel are deployed on peace-keeping missions, you know.

Ok, but people die all the time during those. We also are still stationed in places all over the globe from previous wars.

We've lost every major war since WWII. I'M NOT ADVOCATING FOR CUTTING OFF BRANCHES OF THE MILITARY. But the opportunity cost of our way is far too high.