[PUG] Osama Bin Laden is dead Part II

[donkeybals]

Sorry @slant, imo opinion this is an important topic to be debated and discussed. I don't feel like the thread went overboard or anything, it's a very touchy topic imo, and you can't expect anything less than strong viewpoints. Anyway, I think it should be continued. I'll leave it up to the moderators to decide if they want to close it.

 

[slant]

You outta make this pug if you're expecting people to argue about it.

 

[Galileo]

I personally don't believe it.

No DNA evidence currently and a 'burial' at sea?

nah.

either he was dead ages ago and this is some stunt to either get Obama reelected or to bring closure, or there's strong evidence to suggest that it's not Osama and a body double, which he has been known to use.

 

[Wyote]

I changed it to PUG and so healthy debate is encouraged.

[MODS]If this thread turns into name calling and all that, it will be closed.[/MODS]

 

[donkeybals]

@donkeybals

The actual real mastermind is known to be Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Bin Laden is and always has been, simply a figurehead contributing money to the cause. He was more involved with other things though, such as the bombing of the USS Cole.

Thanks for the info!! Do you agree that bin laden was the head of al quaeda though? It's similar to saying obama isn't the mastermind behind bin laden's death. Which is true he's not. But he's in charge of our military actions. Or do you not agree with that?

 

[~jet]

I personally don't believe it.

No DNA evidence currently and a 'burial' at sea?

I am equally irritated with that. They're claiming DNA tests were done, but we're replying on others for that gem. This has as many holes in it as 9/11 itself (re: pentagon, the impact of which was recorded in full-frame from more than half a dozen angles, and yet never has a single [qualitative] one of them been released). Any and many of them could be easily explained with better information releases, and yet that's too much to ask for... the motivation behind the withholdings makes me wonder.

 

[donkeybals]

You outta make this pug if you're expecting people to argue about it.

Yeah, sorry, I should have changed this to pug. My fault.

Btw thanks [MENTION=251]Wyote[/MENTION]

 

[Wyote]

I'd view Osama more like a mob boss of a sector. There are a bunch of others at his level of power within the organization. Some people view him as the head honcho, and some view another dude closer to them with slightly more respect. In the U.S. he is viewed as the all important doer of evil, because we needed somebody to blame and he happened to be giving most of the orders concerning the 9/11 attacks.

 

[Galileo]

I am equally irritated with that. They're claiming DNA tests were done, but we're replying on others for that gem. This has as many holes in it as 9/11 itself (re: pentagon, the impact of which was recorded in full-frame from more than half a dozen angles, and yet never has a single [qualitative] one of them been released). Any and many of them could be easily explained with better information releases, and yet that's too much to ask for... the motivation behind the withholdings makes me wonder.

I'm equally concerned with the excuses for the 'burial'.

Now I've been called a conspiricy nutter by other people for my views on this, but this wouldn't be the first time the American government has tried to cover up evidence and lie in order to bring closure to something, if indeed this is the case.


Now it might well be that their reasons for doing so are quite fair and acceptable, but if you do something like that without giving people the chance to verify their own findings then you can hardly blame people for being suspicious of their actions

 

[~jet]

Now it might well be that their reasons for doing so are quite fair and acceptable, but if you do something like that without giving people the chance to verify their own findings then you can hardly blame people for being suspicious of their actions

Quite possibly! I mean, maybe the reason the pentagon hasn't released their stockpile of impact footage is because it would reveal a classified defense cannon on the roof or something. Understandable... but all this secrecy only makes speculation worse... at least among folk with brains.

 

[Norton]

Any young reporter would be set for life if he or she could show that Osama Bin Laden wasn't killed today and that all this news is false, a conspiracy by the evil US Government to crown that "non-US born" Obama as king. Some reporters are among the most aggressive, self-serving, obnoxious people you'll ever meet. This alone is enough to tell you that, when there really is a conspiracy, you'll always hear about it. But, additionally, long term secrets in the Government are almost impossible to keep.

So, I know it's fun to envision conspiracies everywhere, but the real world is not like the movies. Real conspiracies are rare and almost never worth the effort. You always get found out. If you don't believe this, think "insider trading."

 

[Galileo]

but honestly just how difficult would it be to offer the public reasonable proof that it is Osama?

 

[donkeybals]

Any young reporter would be set for life if he or she could show that Osama Bin Laden wasn't killed today and that all this news is false, a conspiracy by the evil US Government to crown that "non-US born" Obama as king. Some reporters are among the most aggressive, self-serving, obnoxious people you'll ever meet. This alone is enough to tell you that, when there really is a conspiracy, you'll always hear about it. But, additionally, long term secrets in the Government are almost impossible to keep.

So, I know it's fun to envision conspiracies everywhere, but the real world is not like the movies. Real conspiracies are rare and almost never worth the effort. You always get found out. If you don't believe this, think "insider trading."

I agree with this. It would take about a second for bin laden to create a video and say he's alive. The us government would know not to make this sh*t up. Obama would never do this anyway. He's an honest man.

*Pauses*

Angry citizen: "Obama is a crooked b*tch just like the rest of 'em".

 

[Stu]

I am amazed to see that the arguments revolve around whether it is true or not. I think it is seamlessly logical that the Military would respectfully bury him at sea once they were satisfied it was him.

I found the presidents speech most gratifying. Notice there was no mention of Iraq? It is obvious that had the last administration not invaded that country then it would have killed that bastard years ago.

 

[Galileo]

and I know this is going right into the realm of conspirciy haven, but the US president doesn't, in my opinion, have all control over what goes on and what the public get told. I do not believe he has the amount of power that the people think he has.

 

[DrShephard]

My feelings concerning the whole matter could best be described as similar to putting an animal down that needed to be put down. An unfortunate chain of events to have happened in the first place, leading to death. An occurrence.

I got a perverse feeling of similarity when I heard that people were cheering in the streets outside of the world trade center last night. It reminded me of when there was cheering in the streets in the middle east after those very towers had fallen. Cheering over the death of an enemy.

Whether or not a murder is justified, it is still a murder. What someone does on hearing of a death, even of someone they dislike, is quite telling of them I think. The actions of people after they've heard about a death on the "other team", or on their own. Murder, for the latter, would be cause for anger and retaliation. For the former, a cause for celebration.

I can only call it ignorant, or juvenile. But go ahead and cheer and cry with happiness over death, America! Just don't expect me to join in.

Good job, humanity!

 

[Galileo]

I am amazed to see that the arguments revolve around whether it is true or not. I think it is seamlessly logical that the Military would respectfully bury him at see once they were satisfied it was him.

and I just do not think that that is ok.

in any way shape or form.

when you have someone like that, who has been hunted for years and years, when more than just the USA put in their time and effort and not to mention money to try and find him, I do not think it's acceptable to just be expected to take the word of the USA military/government for it.

 

[Galileo]

My feelings concerning the whole matter could best be described as similar to putting an animal down that needed to be put down. An unfortunate chain of events to have happened in the first place, leading to death. An occurence.

I got a perverse feeling of similarity when I heard that people were cheering in the streets outside of the world trade center last night. It reminded me of when there was cheering in the streets in the middle east after those very towers had fallen. Cheering over the death of an enemy.

Whether or not a murder is justified, it is still a murder. What someone does on hearing of a death, even of someone they dislike, is quite telling of them I think. The actions of people after they've heard about a death on the "other team", or on their own. Murder, for the latter, would be cause for anger and retaliation. For the former, a cause for celebration.

I can only call it ignorant, or juvenile. But go ahead and cheer and cry with happiness over death, America! Just don't expect me to join in.

Good job, humanity!

It's interesting that the American government are so quick to point out the number of innocent lives that Osama is responsible for ending, yet completely ignore the countless civilians they have killed while trying to capture him or take over Iraq...

 

[Stu]

and I just do not think that that is ok.

............., I do not think it's acceptable to just be expected to take the word of the USA military/government for it.

I am not a conspiratorial enthusiast, but a realist. Who is served by submitting Bin Laden's body to say the New York City's coroner's office?

It was the President of the United Sates that sent the Military after him. He is the one who needs to be satisfied with the proof of death.

We are free to disbelieve them.

 

[~jet]

We are free to disbelieve them.

That's almost true, but making claims in the name of something is an age old practice... the Reichstag, for example. I'm not accusing Obama of anything here since I'm actually 60-70% satisfied with his policies (even the ones that are stalled out due to the nation's most obstructionist senate in history.) There's just far too much precedent (reichstag, bay of pigs, 'the maine', maybe even 9/11 itself) for false flags used to justify anything.