Obesity: A Health crisis or a moral one?

[Quinlan]

This article blows my mind!

I highly recommend reading this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08iht-snfat.5614611.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

It goes into the fundamental differences in individual metabolisms.

"Those who doubt the power of basic drives, however, might note that although one can hold one's breath, this conscious act is soon overcome by the compulsion to breathe," Friedman wrote. "The feeling of hunger is intense and, if not as potent as the drive to breathe, is probably no less powerful than the drive to drink when one is thirsty.

 

[Shai Gar]

The BMI is complete bullshit right off the bat, it was never intended to be used for what it currently is.
So, yeah.

Agreed. I know soldiers who have been kicked out of the army for being too muscular. Because their BMI was too high, on paper these guys were obese.

True obesity is an economic problem. The US Government subsidises corn starch and other such required products for processed foods. There isn't an equivalent for local food allotments or other such ideas that'd provide healthy zero food miles food to americans.

 

[Eniko]

I stopped taking the person answering the questions in that article seriously when he started blithering on about how it's basically impossible to lose weight and keep it off. As if all the weasel words and contradictions weren't enough already.

That guy is the Michael Moore to the Bushism of weight loss. The latter is way too extreme and not entirely true, but that doesn't make this guy any more right.

Oh and he's wrong saying that lowering caloric intake is not proved to be healthy at all and only increased activity (apparently without weight loss) is healthy:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4580934
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-ultra-low-calorie-diet-claim-scientists.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie_restriction

 

[Quinlan]

I stopped taking the person answering the questions in that article seriously when he started blithering on about how it's basically impossible to lose weight and keep it off.

You know how? You're gunna be rich!

Oh and he's wrong saying that lowering caloric intake is not proved to be healthy at all and only increased activity (apparently without weight loss) is healthy:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4580934
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-ultra-low-calorie-diet-claim-scientists.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie_restriction

Where did he mention caloric intake specifically?

Interesting links you have: One says

It’s still unproven that calorie restriction would extend life in humans as it does in mice, said Spindler

and another gives a long list of negatives and the other suggest living off entirely off milk protein and corn oil (doesn't sound too healthy to me)!

 

[Eniko]

we don't know how to make people thinner

Patently false. We do know how to make people thinner. In fact, he agrees with me before that quote:

If you put people on starvation diets, which is what these methods do, of course you'll get huge amounts of weight loss

Right, so we do know how to make people thinner then! But it's just that the way we know how is bad and doesn't work for anyone?

They do the experiment, the experiment doesn't work in the vast majority of cases

Wait, so in some cases it does work? Wow, I'm totally buying what this guy who's contradicting himself in his own article is selling as gospel here.

People will be healthier if they're more active and don't smoke and if they avoid eating disordered behavior (like dieting in particular.

There's compelling evidence that this "disordered behavior" might in fact lengthen lifespans. Maybe it doesn't work, but what evidence does he have that reducing your caloric intake is "disordered behaviour"? It's just weasel wording designed to give you a gut reaction towards dieting, that its bad. Not hard to do, since most people hate dieting to begin with!

I also find that article about how thin people can't stay fat, and how fat people can't stay thin very interesting. I used to have a BMI of under 19, and I wasn't doing anything in particular to get it that low. I didn't exercise and I didn't eat abnormally little. I started eating to gain weight and over a period gained weight, settled into my new routine, and held a BMI of around 25.

Then in my mid 20s something about my body changed and the old pattern no longer held. I went up to as high as 76kg. I changed my habits again and I lost 12kg so far, that's over 25 pounds for the interested.

So apparently some people can lose and keep off, or gain and keep on, an extra 30-60 pounds, as I'm living proof. Which makes the whole "it's futile" argument pointless and self indulgent defeatism.

Now I'm not going to put a gun to anyone's head. I don't think anyone should do something they're unwilling to do, even if it is losing weight. I do believe there is undue emphasis on weight, and having to lose weight for health benefits. I even think that BMI is woefully inadequate and realize that even thin people can be fat "inside" (TOFI) and potentially suffer just as many health risks as visibly overweight people.

But this guy is selling defeatism, platitudes, weasel words and, in a word, snake oil, and I find it sad to see anyone embracing this as some sort of excuse to not even try because some guy on the internet says "it can't be done anyway" without even providing any proof.

 

[Shaz]

I don't know about obesity but what I know is that our system results in such a waste of food. We produre too much food. We consume too much. And I'm not even talking about America here, this is what I see in Europe. But all my friends who went to the USA or Canada tell me that there are so many places where you can pay something and then eat as much as you want, and that in most places their plates are so huge they can never finish them. What is that? Half the world is fucking starving!!!!!!!!!!! Makes me want to vomit.

Sorry about the off topic, but this makes me so angry.

 

[Sithious]

Being obese goes to show that you are eating unhealthy food and in excess, this isn't in any way good for the body.

So lets drop the bullshit that fat people are healthy

 

[arbygil]

Being obese goes to show that you are eating unhealthy food and in excess, this isn't in any way good for the body.

So lets drop the bullshit that fat people are healthy

Only if the assumption is that one is fat from eating junk food, yes. But you haven't taken into account those who are fat *and* healthy. Or fat folk who eat health food, or (yes, they exist) fat vegans.

I would say that the majority of overweight people in the United States might have become fat from junk food, but there are plenty of naturally thin people (teenagers, young adults) who eat whatever junk they want and stay the same size.

You'll have to balance your statement a bit to make it less one-sided.

 

[mallory knox]

That is not true. Firstly gaining weight is not always caused by overeating.

For example, I am not overweight but I gain weight a lot easier than my brother, who eats a lot more and is skinny. It is a matter of metabolism.

Also, it does not determine someone's health. Someone's health has to be determined by medical and laboratorial tests. Eg. I know an underweight woman who has more cholesterol levels than most obese people.

There are so many factors than can be determinant: evolution, metabolism, glandular problems, medication, emotional or mental problems.

Reserches more and more show that it has to do more with genes than this silly idea that they're "lazy" people.

One aspect that I find interesting is how being overweight is equally dangerous to someone's health however you won't see this much prejudice.

 

[arbygil]

I don't know about obesity but what I know is that our system results in such a waste of food. We produre too much food. We consume too much. And I'm not even talking about America here, this is what I see in Europe. But all my friends who went to the USA or Canada tell me that there are so many places where you can pay something and then eat as much as you want, and that in most places their plates are so huge they can never finish them. What is that? Half the world is fucking starving!!!!!!!!!!! Makes me want to vomit.

Sorry about the off topic, but this makes me so angry.

It's true, and I agree that it's wasteful. Worse, every food company (regardless of it being fast food or whatever) has to throw away their excesses at the close of the business day. They're not allowed to share it with anyone. The US Food laws state that all excess food must go in the garbage.

What's even more sad? There are folks who are starving in the United States. We have excesses on every corner, but people are still starving in this country.

What a contradiction.

 

[mallory knox]

why are they not allowed to send the food anywhere?

here in the city we have the opposite problem. A lot of restaurants will send their food to orphanage or something like that after lunch, and a lot of them will distribute among homeless people.

which sadly seems to cause more people to resign to being homeless and a drug addict and never leave the street.

 

[Sithious]

Only if the assumption is that one is fat from eating junk food, yes. But you haven't taken into account those who are fat *and* healthy. Or fat folk who eat health food, or (yes, they exist) fat vegans.

I would say that the majority of overweight people in the United States might have become fat from junk food, but there are plenty of naturally thin people (teenagers, young adults) who eat whatever junk they want and stay the same size.

You'll have to balance your statement a bit to make it less one-sided.

You don't get fat by eating just carrots, unless you eat like 40 pounds a day. Vegans can eat nuts, potatoships, candy, dressings you name it, so just because you are a vegan doesn't mean you eat healthy. Eating meat is not unhealthy, in fact it contains a lot of protein and vital minerals which are the building blocks of the body. Burgers from mcdonalds are not very healthy, but you can eat leaner types of meat.

If you are fat, and then I don't mean a few extra pounds, then you are eating unhealthy unless you have some sort of disorder.

 

[arbygil]

why are they not allowed to send the food anywhere?

here in the city we have the opposite problem. A lot of restaurants will send their food to orphanage or something like that after lunch, and a lot of them will distribute among homeless people.

which sadly seems to cause more people to resign to being homeless and a drug addict and never leave the street.

Supposedly it's because of food spoilage, which is frustrating. And occasionally you'll see homeless men and women dig through bins late at night because they know those bins will have fresh food (aka, "dumpster diving"). That doesn't make sense to me, either. I wish we *did* have a food program that gave the excess away to homeless folk and impoverished folk.

 

[Sithious]

The EU dumps tons upon tons of food every year so that the prices won't go too far down.

 

[arbygil]

You don't get fat by eating just carrots, unless you eat like 40 pounds a day. Vegans can eat nuts, potatoships, candy, dressings you name it, so just because you are a vegan doesn't mean you eat healthy. Eating meat is not unhealthy, in fact it contains a lot of protein and vital minerals which are the building blocks of the body. Burgers from mcdonalds are not very healthy, but you can eat leaner types of meat.

If you are fat, and then I don't mean a few extra pounds, then you are eating unhealthy unless you have a some sort of disorder.

Do you have some data for that? People make these assumptions based on what they see, but not what they study. If it were that simple, I guarantee you we'd have healthier people. Heck, if it were that simple I'd be a size two by now. I've studied nutrition for years on my own, and I keep a healthy balance. But my problem is exercise - I know that part. I walk to work every day but it's not enough. But I don't eat junk.

Still, I'm not putting myself up on the chopping block. Truth is, we all assume it's junk food that makes people fat. But the absence of that does *not* make people thin. The reverse is not true. You have to change the body's metabolism and that takes more than just eating properly.

 

[mallory knox]

Supposedly it's because of food spoilage, which is frustrating. And occasionally you'll see homeless men and women dig through bins late at night because they know those bins will have fresh food (aka, "dumpster diving"). That doesn't make sense to me, either. I wish we *did* have a food program that gave the excess away to homeless folk and impoverished folk.

We do not have any sort of program, I guess it's just the decision of the owner, but it's not illegal to give it away.

But the thing is by giving food to the homeless you'll probably keep them homeless.

As for all fat people eat unhealthy, that's nonsense. Try taking cortizon daily you'll get fat in no time.

 

[Sithious]

Do you have some data for that? People make these assumptions based on what they see, but not what they study. If it were that simple, I guarantee you we'd have healthier people. Heck, if it were that simple I'd be a size two by now. I've studied nutrition for years on my own, and I keep a healthy balance. But my problem is exercise - I know that part. I walk to work every day but it's not enough. But I don't eat junk.

Still, I'm not putting myself up on the chopping block. Truth is, we all assume it's junk food that makes people fat. But the absence of that does *not* make people thin. The reverse is not true. You have to change the body's metabolism and that takes more than just eating properly.

Then you eat too much, which is not healthy either, assuming you are actually obese and not just have some extra pounds. You might also have a very slow metabolism, eat every 3 hours, don't eat yourself full on either of those meals, eat 2:1 carb protein, and around 30% fat, the fats should mainly be Monounsaturated Fat, and get alot of omega 3 in your diet. Also never go on a diet, but you probably know that. If you eat unhealthy then you need to make permanent changes to your eating habits, not starve yourself for one week then eat till you puke.

Sleep is also a very important factor when it comes to losing weight, if you don't sleep properly you will gain weight. I could go into detail as to why, but that's not needed I think.

You are either eating too much carbs or fat, or too much of both.

Personally I've been into bodybuilding for the past 2 years, and one period I managed to get chubby even though I ate very healthy, however, I did eat way too much carbs (full wheat pasta, potatoes, full wheat bread and the likes, not any candy or anything), thus increasing the risk of getting diabetes and it was not healthy for my body.

I also consider myself an expert on nutrition.

 

[Sithious]

Umm, you're not at all Obese, judging by your profile picture. You might have some extra pounds, but that's not what I've been talking about. Simply having some extra pounds is not unhealthy and it happens naturally to most people as they get older, considering the metabolism slows down as you age.

Besides women can have pretty high bodyfat % and still be very healthy, which is correlated with the female hormone estrogen, men must stay a little bit lower.

 

[Shai Gar]

People are fools.

There is Healthy and Unhealthy. A good indicator of Healthy is; "Not Fat".

Fat people are unhealthy, as are most thin people. Fit is not thin. Fit is healthy.

 

[mallory knox]

I'm sorry but, if you consider yourself an expert, that might not be enough to dismiss everything that everyone else is saying here.