Obesity: A Health crisis or a moral one?

[Billy]

We're talking many things here, guys. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing that if you're saying, "all you have to do is eat right and exercise every day" then you've never had a weight problem to begin with. Which is great.

But if you do have a weight problem, then even if you do those things you might need extra help because your metabolism is seriously out of whack. That happens, too. I would say - and concede - that the biggest problem is diet. The second biggest is exercise. But I can show you two people doing the same two things in life, and one will gain weight and the other won't.

I'm not saying people aren't lazy or eating wrong foods. But it's just not easy to tell folks to "just do this and be like me." Food is a drug for some folks, and some folks are addicts. You have to reach the mind before the body can follow in those cases, and you can't just tell someone to do something; you have to wipe the brain's hard drive and start clean.

Man, I love this.

It's such a dichotomy. If I told someone to "just stop using the internet" if they were addicted to online porn, I think it'd be the same thing. Or, "just stop playing WoW" if they were wowheads. Not to make it easy, but if it was easy to lose weight, everyone would be the size they needed to be.

Meh. I'm done with this for now.

I can understand where you are coming from with what you are saying I am both an Ex WoWhead, Internet addict and Food addict. What vital ingredient I used to break those patterns was willpower. The mind is absolute and can overcome all patterns and addictions if you want it bad enough. Nothing is ever easy, ever... things are hard they are supposed to be. What people need to do is re-frame the date in their had from "this is hard" to "this is hard and I am going to do it because I am in control and I will be damned if I am not in control."

I just started P90X a few weeks back with my brothers and some friends, out of 6 of us I am the only one who can do it and still does it. Why? I am not stronger then they are or more fit, if anything my brothers fitness levels are much better than my own. But I have a power they don't, its called drive and determination. I can take the extreme pain of an intense workout, the shakes, the low blood sugar withdrawal, the dizziness and fuel an inner anger to explode even harder and try even harder which is usually enough to push me not only through the hard workout, but to go running after it as well.

This is what people need, not excuses. Excuses are meant to soften our failures, and failure in my opinion is a personal choice.

 

[Quinlan]

And yet everyone ignores my post about thin =/= healthy, or how healthy =/= obese.

For some people to accept that, would mean that they would have to lose their moral high ground, people don't give that up easily.

 

[mallory knox]

Prove someone can gain weight on 500 calories, that's not even enough to maintain a basic muscle structure and your lymph systems. I call BS.

If someone is becoming narcoleptic because their body is going into a starvation routine (highly doubtful never heard anything about this) then they need medication. NOT extra calories.

All i am seeing in this post is a justification for why people are obese and I don't buy it, sorry.

how haven't you heard of that? it's a scientific fact.

the less you eat the slowly your body burns energy.

I don't think he said people become narcoleptic, I think he said the metabolism gets into that sort of state.

There is not one formula on how to lose weight, as everything in health, each case is a case and has to be analysed as such.

Do you really think people would subject themselves to being obese and face all this prejudice if it was so simple for them to solve the problem?

 

[Shai Gar]

Prove someone can gain weight on 500 calories, that's not even enough to maintain a basic muscle structure and your lymph systems. I call BS.

If someone is becoming narcoleptic because their body is going into a starvation routine (highly doubtful never heard anything about this) then they need medication. NOT extra calories.

All i am seeing in this post is a justification for why people are obese and I don't buy it, sorry.

You know what else is stupid? These "exceptions" are nowhere NEAR the norm, and yet people are touting them as reasons for obesity. Most people are fat because they're lazy gluttonous pigs.

I've got a thyroid and lactose problem. So does my mother and sister. We take tablets to counter that, changed our diet to reflect it so we're not unhealthy, and WORK OUT.

Medical problems generally have a fix.

 

[mallory knox]

I can understand where you are coming from with what you are saying I am both an Ex WoWhead, Internet addict and Food addict. What vital ingredient I used to break those patterns was willpower. The mind is absolute and can overcome all patterns and addictions if you want it bad enough. Nothing is ever easy, ever... things are hard they are supposed to be. What people need to do is re-frame the date in their had from "this is hard" to "this is hard and I am going to do it because I am in control and I will be damned if I am not in control."

I just started P90X a few weeks back with my brothers and some friends, out of 6 of us I am the only one who can do it and still does it. Why? I am not stronger then they are or more fit, if anything my brothers fitness levels are much better than my own. But I have a power they don't, its called drive and determination. I can take the extreme pain of an intense workout, the shakes, the low blood sugar withdrawal, the dizziness and fuel an inner anger to explode even harder and try even harder which is usually enough to push me not only through the hard workout, but to go running after it as well.

This is what people need, not excuses. Excuses are meant to soften our failures, and failure in my opinion is a personal choice.

one day you will fail. we all do, then you'll reacess that.

 

[Shai Gar]

Please provide evidence to support this assertion.

No. You provide evidence that you can get obese by eating food in appropriate quantities that is healthy.

 

[mallory knox]

I don't think the discussion was how one gets obese, but how one stays obese.

 

[Billy]

Please provide evidence to support this assertion.

Pretty basic principal, your body needs X amount of calories to run its various systems. Less than required results in a loss of muscle, fat and vital nutrients and ultimately death. Excess results in stored sugars and carbs in the form of fat deposits.

If you are eating a balanced diet and exercising a proper amount you cannot become obese because your body will not have anything to store. Fat doesn't come from nowhere. And even if your body was directly storing all calories into your fat even if you're eating only 500-1000 calories you would starve to death long before you started hitting the obese/morbidly obese level.

 

[mallory knox]

Reasons why people could gain weight without changing their eating habits:
drugs (antidepressants, anti allergic, among others)
birth control pill
water retention
glands
other health problems like ovarian cysts
lack of sleep
stress
anxiety
depression
etc.

 

[Billy]

how haven't you heard of that? it's a scientific fact.

the less you eat the slowly your body burns energy.

I don't think he said people become narcoleptic, I think he said the metabolism gets into that sort of state.

There is not one formula on how to lose weight, as everything in health, each case is a case and has to be analysed as such.

Do you really think people would subject themselves to being obese and face all this prejudice if it was so simple for them to solve the problem?

1. When I say eat less I don't mean starve yourself. That's 1st and foremost. Your metabolism slows when you starve yourself, AND when you over eat. I eat close to 2500 calories a day, in good foods combined with exercise, I am very fit and very muscular. Its basic science.

2. People will much more easily subject themselves to ridicule and obesity than to an intense workout program in my experience, because eating bad food in excess is much easier than taking an active role and incinerating calories you don't need in your body. You will find more people chilling at your local mcDonalds than on your local FREE high school gym track running loops.

3. Solving an over weight issue IS simple, here is the answer, ready? Expend more calories in the day than you take in until you are at a healthy body shape, then increase your calorie intake to match your calorie output to find a balance. That's the basic answer, simple. Simple for sure, easy? no. That's where proper attitude comes into play.

And I am NOT trying to sound like an asshole, but I deal with this crap every day, I am a personal trainer and I have helped MANY people including people with medical conditions reach healthy body goals. Nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it.

 

[Shai Gar]

*sigh*

More excuses.

 

[Billy]

You know what else is stupid? These "exceptions" are nowhere NEAR the norm, and yet people are touting them as reasons for obesity. Most people are fat because they're lazy gluttonous pigs.

I've got a thyroid and lactose problem. So does my mother and sister. We take tablets to counter that, changed our diet to reflect it so we're not unhealthy, and WORK OUT.

Medical problems generally have a fix.

Absolutely, it all goes back to what I said earlier, failure is a personal choice. Excuses, are just ladder rungs to failure. Out of all the people I have trained less than 1% have had genuine authentic medical issues that made it harder for them to lose weight and get healthy... and even then they still achieved the results they wanted by adapting to and around their problem.

 

[Billy]

one day you will fail. we all do, then you'll reacess that.

This is just a difference in attitude. I don't fail, I make mistakes and then I learn from them. I don't accept myself doing things wrong, even if I do they are a learning experience and I use it to get better.

Which is why I don't fail and I wont fail.

 

[Quinlan]

Perhaps these people really are mentally and morally weaker than you are Billy, so what then? How do you get all these mentally and morally weak people to lose vast amounts of body weight and keep it off for greater than 5 years?

 

[Billy]

Reasons why people could gain weight without changing their eating habits:
drugs (antidepressants, anti allergic, among others)
birth control pill
water retention
glands
other health problems like ovarian cysts
lack of sleep
stress
anxiety
depression
etc.

Those IMO are not legitimate reasons for being obese. Well really there are no legitimate reasons outside of being chained down and force fed through a tube.

I don't know a single person who doesn't suffer from stress, depression, or anxiety, myself included. Except when that stuff gets to me I hit a hard workout session to release tension... other people hit a box of Twinkies.

 

[Billy]

Perhaps these people really are mentally and morally weaker than you are Billy, so what then? How do you get all these mentally and morally weak people to lose vast amounts of body weight and keep it off for greater than 5 years?

The libertarian in me says its not my problem at that point, you cannot help someone who will not help themselves. you cannot legislate a proper diet by ruining freedom for the rest of us. Which is really my main beef with that type of mentality.

My advice would be for them to take responsibility 1st and stop making excuses. Until they do that they cannot be helped. And if they refuse and cannot do that then maybe they should just die, I know that's cold, but that's really their only option left on the longer time line. Especially since they are just committing a slow suicide.

*IF* they can take responsibility though, my advice is to get involved with other health aware people, learn about health and nutriiton, start a workout routine and get results, if you need the extra help give me a call I am a personal trainer and I am very good at motivating my clients.

 

[Quinlan]

And if they refuse and cannot do that then maybe they should just die, I know that's cold, but that's really their only option left on the longer time line. Especially since they are just committing a slow suicide.

What? Is it better to be dead than obese? are you serious?

I have already shown evidence that obese people are at equal risk of death as "healthy" weight people, so no, they're not commiting suicide.

 

[Shai Gar]

My advice would be for them to take responsibility 1st and stop making excuses. Until they do that they cannot be helped. And if they refuse and cannot do that then maybe they should just die

I'm in love.

 

[Quinlan]

"At the moment, we see that the lifestyle intervention in general has effects on reducing liver fat more than total body fat," he says. "Many people stop the program because they are not happy with a body-weight decrease of just a few kilograms. But the liver fat goes down very much, and their metabolism increases very much. They must realize this has benefits. So it is important to tell people to stick with it, even if they don't lose much weight."

http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20080811/benign-obesity-malign-normal-weight?page=2

"I don't believe height and weight is a good indication of health," said Joanne Ikeda, co-director of the Center for Weight and Health at the University of California at Berkeley. "If a fat person or obese person has normal blood pressure, if their total cholesterol and glucose levels are normal and they are healthy, there is no reason they should necessarily have to lose weight."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13355-2004Nov25.html

The obsession with weight is obviously an unessasary distraction from the overall goal of health.

 

[Faye]

Well actually you do have to worry, because that person carries a very obvious (and very much villified) stigma and face discrimination for something out of your control. That is definitely something to worry about.

I meant that they don't need to worry about being unhealthy. Yes, they do need to worry about social stigma.

I'm not interested in a sample size of one, a proper scientific study on the eating habits of the obese would be of more interest.

I wasn't talking about a literal sample size of one. I want evidence that people can have good eating and exercise habits and still become obese before I believe it. I want evidence that this is true in more than a very few rare individuals or people with hormone problems.

A lot of things don't make sense to us at first, that's why we have science to investigate things thoroughly, relying on personal experience, assumption and bias is the road to inaccuracy.

So until we have a scientific consensus to prove otherwise, it is safe to assume that if a person cannot go up a few flights of stairs without getting winded that something is wrong.