"Miss Independent"

[Gaze]

So, I've noticed some really odd things about the way our society defines independence. Apparently, women can only be independent or be seen as independent if they meet a particular set of traits or behave in a particular manner.

Independent women must be assertive or overly assertive to make her voice heard, self assured, project an image of confidence, have an attitude in some cases - I see this everyday, be seen as dominant in some cases, or uncompromising - which can be a positive or negative thing. She must project an aura of self confidence which means unless we perceive her as self confident, we'll assume she isn't because she isn't fitting some visible stereotype or image of the strong, confident, or independent woman. We can't put anyone needs ahead of our own and still be independent. If we want to spend our lives caring for others, we are not truly independent. We are seen as giving away our power or independence. Is this really what being a woman is all about?

Fact is any of these qualities can be positives or negatives depending on how they're perceived and the culture we live in.

But I have to ask, why are we living up to these narrow definitions of what it means to be women?

Do you see a difference in the way you define your position as a woman vs. the way society or the world defines it?

It seems we are still, although we are expected to feel empowered and independent, that we are still fulfilling society's definition of womanhood or independence.

Thoughts? or Discuss?

 

[Siamese cat]

I really don't fit into the definition of a woman you gave and I'm considered to be very independent by others. I found that there is a way to heard and respected even if you are not overly assertive, loud, dominant in that common way. But I probably am considered independent and strong because I don't think of myself as a woman, but more as a person. I don't want to be respected and accomplished as a woman but as a person, and this might be the reason why I probably shouldn't be the one posting in this thread.

I have my quiet way of doing things that need to be done, I don't make a fuss out of it, and I just go step by step towards my goals. I think that people appreciate more those who do rather than those who talk much but don't do, so I've been patient as much as I could and I've shown what I can, and people respond to it even more than I expected.

 

[Peppermint]

Those who affiliate with groups who have been or are a subject of oppression, injustice and so forth tend to overcompensate.

Why are some of them living up to this standard? Possibly because they feel guilt over not rising as above as possible from the patriarchal image of womanhood, insecurity, a desire for camaraderie with other females, a desire not to be seen as less, or not female enough.

I've heard females say before things like "she should be ashamed of submitting, of not fighting" and similar remarks.

 

[lucidflutterby]

This is something I think about quite often actually. This denial of self sacrifice as a woman and being chastised for it. Many of the women in my family fall under the definition you gave. They all have careers and have had multiple abortions to keep themselves independent (not that I am a pro life advocate).

I would just say that I have a son who is 3 years old. I chose to have him and I breastfed him until a year ago. He still sleeps with me and has a great attachment with me. I carry him often and have never used a stroller only slings. I am considered by many a "hippie chick" and I kind of like it. Why do I mention this do you ask? (or not)... I say this because a lot of the way I parent is controversial because of the same kind of ideologies we put on "modern" women. We have become so detached from our natural roles as women in the name of feminism, and we have forgotten what it truly means to be feminine. We have created this effect that essentially we are men who bear children. We plan our births and don't take care of our children anymore, we feed them fake nipples and synthetic versions of what they should have, we detach ourselves from our roles. It has horrible consequences that we then ignore in order to keep the status quo.

I end this comment with this:

I feel many problems in society and the way people function (or don't function) in modern society are linked almost solely to this precise issue. If women cannot learn to be love the way they need to love and embrace their roles as women, the next generation will be just like ours, lost and indifferent. Indifference to injustice is just as bad as committing it.

 

[Nixie]

I disagree @lucidflutterby
I am not married and I have no kids. So I am not a real woman? Somehow I am failing to fufill my real role? I am less than?

How about we learn to accept that people are free to live the lives they choose? How about we define ourselves by and accept our own criteria of the type of person we want to be?

There is always a happy medium, rather than a set of extremes. Be the best hippie chick you want to be but it doesn't mean you've embraced some kind of "true" womanly calling, you've embraced your own calling.

 

[Kgal]

I really don't fit into the definition of a woman you gave and I'm considered to be very independent by others. I found that there is a way to heard and respected even if you are not overly assertive, loud, dominant in that common way. But I probably am considered independent and strong because I don't think of myself as a woman, but more as a person. I don't want to be respected and accomplished as a woman but as a person, and this might be the reason why I probably shouldn't be the one posting in this thread.

I have my quiet way of doing things that need to be done, I don't make a fuss out of it, and I just go step by step towards my goals. I think that people appreciate more those who do rather than those who talk much but don't do, so I've been patient as much as I could and I've shown what I can, and people respond to it even more than I expected.

This.

I've been in traditional male and female roles and I still act like I'm a person. I appreciate the fact I could study/graduate and employ myself in (old)traditional male roles - but I never shoved it down anyone's throat. I expect people to treat me as if I can do/be whatever I set my mind on and either let me fail or succeed on my terms - not on any preconceived female ability.

Also, I decided to never have children when I was about 20yrs old. So perhaps I'm not inclined to "act" like a traditional woman anyway. I certainly never acted like a female "should" my whole life and I don't ever recall being overly worried about it either.

I'm a person - first - female - second.

[MENTION=751]Peppermint[/MENTION] made the comment that other women have said "she should be ashamed of submitting, of not fighting".
I can say whenever I have seen females act that way - catty towards each other - I have remarked I am ashamed of my species (meaning western women). Stupid women... they have no idea how hard it was for us to be able to vote - much less have jobs and make our own way. How dare they tear down another woman.

 

[Gaze]

I really don't fit into the definition of a woman you gave and I'm considered to be very independent by others. I found that there is a way to heard and respected even if you are not overly assertive, loud, dominant in that common way. But I probably am considered independent and strong because I don't think of myself as a woman, but more as a person. I don't want to be respected and accomplished as a woman but as a person, and this might be the reason why I probably shouldn't be the one posting in this thread.

I have my quiet way of doing things that need to be done, I don't make a fuss out of it, and I just go step by step towards my goals. I think that people appreciate more those who do rather than those who talk much but don't do, so I've been patient as much as I could and I've shown what I can, and people respond to it even more than I expected.

There's no right or wrong answer. It's just that where I am I see it everyday, this idea that young women especially are buying into a particular image of womanhood or independence which seems very limiting. If your experience has not been that way, then good. I was curious about how many women feel about the image imposed on their identity as strong or "independent" women.

 

[Gaze]

This is something I think about quite often actually. This denial of self sacrifice as a woman and being chastised for it. Many of the women in my family fall under the definition you gave. They all have careers and have had multiple abortions to keep themselves independent (not that I am a pro life advocate).

I would just say that I have a son who is 3 years old. I chose to have him and I breastfed him until a year ago. He still sleeps with me and has a great attachment with me. I carry him often and have never used a stroller only slings. I am considered by many a "hippie chick" and I kind of like it. Why do I mention this do you ask? (or not)... I say this because a lot of the way I parent is controversial because of the same kind of ideologies we put on "modern" women. We have become so detached from our natural roles as women in the name of feminism, and we have forgotten what it truly means to be feminine. We have created this effect that essentially we are men who bear children. We plan our births and don't take care of our children anymore, we feed them fake nipples and synthetic versions of what they should have, we detach ourselves from our roles. It has horrible consequences that we then ignore in order to keep the status quo.

I end this comment with this:

I feel many problems in society and the way people function (or don't function) in modern society are linked almost solely to this precise issue. If women cannot learn to be love the way they need to love and embrace their roles as women, the next generation will be just like ours, lost and indifferent. Indifference to injustice is just as bad as committing it.

I agree that we are often asked to deny parts of ourselves to please some idea that being a woman, in the name of equality, means rejecting qualities stereotypically seen as feminine or too womanly which assumes it's a sign of weakness or some deficiency, in order to be seen as less differentiated from the other gender in ability.

 

[sassafras]

I see independence as just being you. Living according to your own values and preferences, independent of labels.

The fact of the matter is, despite all of the great strides that feminism has taken, we're still burdened by the trappings of one definition. The "traditional woman" is still the center of our identity axis and we orient ourselves in accordance to this definition: Traditional/Not traditional. Virgin/Slut. Feminine/Tom Boy. Mother/Career Woman. It's Feminist Literature 101 all over again.

Quite frankly, I sometimes get really annoyed with the feminist ideology as it is popularly adopted. With one hand, it champions the cause of a woman who chooses to depart from traditional gender roles and choose a career over a family, but with the other, it decries the woman who prefers to stay at home and mother her children. It's for this reason that I despise the term 'liberated' woman and all that ridiculous hub-bub that somehow results in us throwing a fit because a polite man holds open a door for us. We're not liberated from anything if we still continue to define ourselves by what we're not. That's a defensive stance, not a liberated one. By defining ourselves by a slider that divides our identity as women between two extremes, all we've essentially done is exchanged one sociological cage for another.

That fact of the matter is, that in its desperation to forge a new identity for women, popular feminism still hinges on the fact that somebody, somewhere, still says we can't. I understand that this was the basis for the gender equality movement to begin with, and we aren't going to be able to shake the shadow of our past so readily, but this concept has now become a double-edged sword. The acknowledgement of the 'can't' is still the implicit identifier of the woman as the Other. It's for this reason I don't identify myself as a feminist. I don't define myself as anything but someone who believes in individual freedoms. I've already internalized the fact that equality exists between men and women. Indeed, for the most part, most of the Western World has absorbed this concept too, and it's time to move past 'feminism' and 'gender equality' into individual freedoms. Thus, the only work the remains to be done is make sure that we as individuals (not singularly 'women') have all the opportunities we desire and deserve in our society.

That being said, if a man opens a door for me, I don't see it as him trying to assert his dominance. I'll see it as him being polite. Next time I'm closer to the door, I'll be polite too and open the door for him and think nothing of it. If I don't feel comfortable with my marriage vows as they are written traditionally, I'll change them to suit my purposes--but I won't decry others for choosing to go the traditional route. There's no right or wrong. It's whatever we want to do.

True independence, in my opinion, is really the original cause that feminism wanted to attain: a chance to be ourselves, however we are, with no labels, no extremes, no shouldn'ts, should not's.

 

[Gaze]

I see independence as just being you. Living according to your own values and preferences, independent of labels.

The fact of the matter is, despite all of the great strides that feminism has taken, we're still burdened by the trappings of one definition. The "traditional woman" is still the center of our identity axis and we orient ourselves in accordance to how we as women define ourselves: Traditional/Not traditional. Virgin/Slut. Feminine/Tom Boy. Mother/Career Woman.

Quite frankly, I sometimes get really annoyed with feminism. With one hand, they champion the cause of a woman who chooses to depart from traditional gender roles and choose a career over a family, but with the other, they quash the woman who prefers to stay at home and mother her children. It's for this reason that I despise the term 'liberated' woman and all that ridiculous hub-bub of throwing a fit because a man holds open a door so we can pass through. We haven't been liberated from anything if we still, deep down in our psyche, continue to define ourselves by what we're not or what we don't want to be. Doing so, looking at ourselves in extremes, all we've essentially done is simply exchanged one sociological cage for another.

That fact of the matter is, in my opinion, that in its desperation to forge a new identity for women--we can be anything we want to be--- feminism still hinges on the fact that somebody, somewhere, still says we can't. That acknowledgement of the 'can't' is still the implicit acknowledgement of the woman as the Other. It's for this reason I don't identify myself as a feminist. I don't define myself as anything because I've already internalized the fact that there exists no equality between men and women and I don't need a label for it. I think, for the most part, most of the Western World has absorbed these concepts enough now to shed that 'not traditional' and 'not liberated' label and embrace our identities as individuals... and work to make sure that we as individuals have all the opportunities we desire and deserve.

If a man opens a door for me, I don't see it as him trying to assert his dominance. I'll see it as him being polite. Next time, when I get the chance, I'll be polite too and open the door for him and think nothing of it. If I don't feel comfortable with my marriage vows as they are written traditionally, I'll change them to suit my purposes--but I won't decry others for choosing to go the traditional route. There's no right or wrong. It's whatever we want to do.

True independence, then, is really the original cause that feminism wanted to attain: a chance to be ourselves, however we are, no labels, no extremes, no shouldn'ts, should nots.

couldn't have said better [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION]

 

[Kgal]

couldn't have said better @TheDaringHatTrick

That's what I was going to say, Rite. She said it well.

True independence, then, is really the original cause that feminism wanted to attain: a chance to be ourselves, however we are, no labels, no extremes, no shouldn'ts, should not's.

 

[This]

I like feminine, independent, sexually submissive, intelligent, caring, strong women and believe that a woman can be all these things at the same time and have met many women that are because they are not mutually exclusive qualities.

I think feminism in it's most idealistic form probably takes what would be considered a radical stance. Everyone is different and being feminine doesn't make you any less of an "independent, strong, woman" I don't think most women probably strive to be jane the riveter although there's nothing wrong with that for those who do.

 

[not sure]

Is this really what being a woman is all about?

No. Human beings are more than stupid adjectives.

But I have to ask, why are we living up to these narrow definitions of what it means to be women?

If you don't you will be ostracized and that is a pain that makes you beg for death, so you sell your soul bit by bit till there is nothing left.

Do you see a difference in the way you define your position as a woman vs. the way society or the world defines it?


Societies definition of womanhood is contradictory and unachievable except through the wearing of masks. My definition of myself as a woman is that I am a person and frankly I've grown to resent reminders of my gender. Society be damned.

 

[Kgal]

Is this really what being a woman is all about?

No. Human beings are more than stupid adjectives.

But I have to ask, why are we living up to these narrow definitions of what it means to be women?

If you don't you will be ostracized and that is a pain that makes you beg for death, so you sell your soul bit by bit till there is nothing left.

Do you see a difference in the way you define your position as a woman vs. the way society or the world defines it?


Societies definition of womanhood is contradictory and unachievable except through the wearing of masks. My definition of myself as a woman is that I am a person and frankly I've grown to resent reminders of my gender. Society be damned.

WooHoo! :high5:

 

[lucidflutterby]

I disagree @lucidflutterby
I am not married and I have no kids. So I am not a real woman? Somehow I am failing to fufill my real role? I am less than?

How about we learn to accept that people are free to live the lives they choose? How about we define ourselves by and accept our own criteria of the type of person we want to be?

There is always a happy medium, rather than a set of extremes. Be the best hippie chick you want to be but it doesn't mean you've embraced some kind of "true" womanly calling, you've embraced your own calling.

I agree that you can live your own life by your own standards. Who is really going to take that away from you? And as far as you living your life without being married or having children, I also don't feel that is an obligation. I do however feel as if many women keep themselves childless to keep their said "independence". Not that it is a bad thing and perhaps they should not have children if they value their lives over taking care of someone else's. However, many women don't even turn that off when they have children. They keep this track of "self" but in the name of their families. It does not make sense. You cannot be a career woman and have an appropriate attachment to your children when you send them off to daycare at 2 months and feed them out of a bottle. In my opinion it has all become a status symbol. Being able to make loads of money and having a perfectly manicured home and children who are closer to the nanny than them.

On a personal note, I am going to school to be a lactation consultant and a doula/midwife. I am a huge advocate for natural birthing and parenting. I have a bias.

 

[Nixie]

Yes well all that may be your opinion, which is perfectly alright. However, being a lactation consultant and a doula/midwife who stays at home with her children doesn't guarantee that you will be a "good mother" and your children perfectly turned out--not one bit. The same that keeping your job and having a career doesn't guarantee that you will be a horrible, detached mother with badly socialized children. That isn't a bias, it is reality. The truth of the matter is that it will always be dependent upon the individual and their capacity to manage the choices they make and their ablity to parent. Will certain choices make it easier? Sure it will. Does that mean one is "better" and one "worse"--not really, they are just different. However, you put it, your ability to be a parent isn't something defined by "what" you do but "how you do it" and "how you choose to be"--you can snub your nose at the woman trying to provide for her family and she can snub her nose at the woman choosing to stay home but neither attitude is really a great attitude to have, especially when their are children present to learn your biases.

 

[not sure]

I agree that you can live your own life by your own standards. Who is really going to take that away from you? And as far as you living your life without being married or having children, I also don't feel that is an obligation. I do however feel as if many women keep themselves childless to keep their said "independence". Not that it is a bad thing and perhaps they should not have children if they value their lives over taking care of someone else's. However, many women don't even turn that off when they have children. They keep this track of "self" but in the name of their families. It does not make sense. You cannot be a career woman and have an appropriate attachment to your children when you send them off to daycare at 2 months and feed them out of a bottle. In my opinion it has all become a status symbol. Being able to make loads of money and having a perfectly manicured home and children who are closer to the nanny than them.

On a personal note, I am going to school to be a lactation consultant and a doula/midwife. I am a huge advocate for natural birthing and parenting. I have a bias.

How about you remain an expert on your life and allow others to be experts on their own?

Further, standing outside of a person's mind leaves you without information to make judgements on the worth of their decisions. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people telling women what they can or cannot do, feel or cannot feel, say or cannot say. Go find a man to annoy.

 

[Kgal]

Once again the societal machine pits us all against each other. Fighting about what a woman should or shouldn't be. It's all judgment - no matter which stance we take.
Right before my mother's time, a woman could not own property - nor keep her children if she divorced. Hence divorce was almost unheard of and men had mistresses and the wives had Valium.
Finally we go through the Feminist phase and women argued for the same rights as men. We ended up being able to own property, get divorced and keep the kids, get into private men only establishments, and become doctors and engineers. Seems to me we kept all of the other shit we did too - like clean the house, cook the food, and keep the husband happy in bed.
We are still going through the process of establishing equilibrium in our place in our society. We are still in Chaos.
Try to keep in mind it wasn't too long ago women had to fight for what we can do now. Those women who fought against these rights are/were viewed as traitors. So hurt feelings abound all around.
I get angry when women do not vote. I get angry when women do not think. I get angry when they rip men off and laugh about it.
Then I remind myself this pendulum is still swinging wide.

Peace.

 

[Reon]

So, I've noticed some really odd things about the way our society defines independence. Apparently, women can only be independent or be seen as independent if they meet a particular set of traits or behave in a particular manner.

....I would actually say that society, observed through the lenses of media, says that women have to be independent if they possess these few traits and only these few traits. In real life, independence tends to be in relation to being able to provide for one's self and not how confident they are. The media focus on Independence in association with confidence because it's easier to understand that mentality. And independent can be seen in several lights, fiscal and emotional for example.

Independent women must be assertive or overly assertive to make her voice heard, self assured, project an image of confidence, have an attitude in some cases - I see this everyday, be seen as dominant in some cases, or uncompromising - which can be a positive or negative thing. She must project an aura of self confidence which means unless we perceive her as self confident, we'll assume she isn't because she isn't fitting some visible stereotype or image of the strong, confident, or independent woman. We can't put anyone needs ahead of our own and still be independent. If we want to spend our lives caring for others, we are not truly independent. We are seen as giving away our power or independence. Is this really what being a woman is all about?

First, I'd like to examine the term: "Miss independent". I don't hear it much outside of the african american community (And Kelly clarkson). It has the vibe to it, from how I hear it being used, that not only the gender is being suppressed usually but the race as well. And by submitting to the presumably white authority, you're being trampled over...so the only logical other half of that dichotomy is to be loud, out spoken, and all the general stuff. You have to be heard. You have to be confident Also, I think this has less to do with this being a specifically female version of being independent, this is the typical image of what confident is in the media. Men are told to be confident in the same way. And, of course, the answer for both men and women when it comes to being told what to be by the media is: You're a wo/man defined by your genitalia. You're a person. Find yourself and be yourself.

Fact is any of these qualities can be positives or negatives depending on how they're perceived and the culture we live in.

*just got an image of Beyonce's "Single ladies" playing somewhere in the remote jungles of Africa*

But I have to ask, why are we living up to these narrow definitions of what it means to be women?

Meh. Can't say that I notice many women living up to the narrow definition of being independent for their explicit reason of "I'm a woman and I can be equal to a man". I tend to notice that their confidence comes from, I'm a person and I can be equal to any other person.

 

[lucidflutterby]

How about you remain an expert on your life and allow others to be experts on their own?

Further, standing outside of a person's mind leaves you without information to make judgements on the worth of their decisions. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people telling women what they can or cannot do, feel or cannot feel, say or cannot say. Go find a man to annoy.

hahaha

okay, fair enough. And I do have a man to annoy. It gets old. So I come on here to annoy you.