"Miss Independent" | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

"Miss Independent"

Yes well all that may be your opinion, which is perfectly alright. However, being a lactation consultant and a doula/midwife who stays at home with her children doesn't guarantee that you will be a "good mother" and your children perfectly turned out--not one bit. The same that keeping your job and having a career doesn't guarantee that you will be a horrible, detached mother with badly socialized children. That isn't a bias, it is reality. The truth of the matter is that it will always be dependent upon the individual and their capacity to manage the choices they make and their ablity to parent. Will certain choices make it easier? Sure it will. Does that mean one is "better" and one "worse"--not really, they are just different. However, you put it, your ability to be a parent isn't something defined by "what" you do but "how you do it" and "how you choose to be"--you can snub your nose at the woman trying to provide for her family and she can snub her nose at the woman choosing to stay home but neither attitude is really a great attitude to have, especially when their are children present to learn your biases.


I think you are assuming I'm snubbing my nose when in all reality I am really just stating the obvious. You don't have children so you don't understand the connection you need to have with a child. I am speaking entirely from experience. I don't have any issue with a woman providing for her family. It is a grim reality that we have so many single mother households. They are doing the best they can do and I applaud that. However, the issue in my opinion is when you look at your job or status in your career in a higher respect then staying at home nurturing your children. I didn't even say all women who stay home nurture their children correctly. I'm sure you've seen your share of children who are completely defiant to their parents and grow up to be anti social or crave stimulation with video games, gambling, porn. We all know those types of things exist yet we fail to ask why. We just simply say it is the way things are. I am simply stating that perhaps it does take root within the family and the attachment we have with it.

On another note: I find it daunting to have to explain something in specifics that I spoke generally about. Thank you.
 
I think there is room for different perspectives.
 
I think you are assuming I'm snubbing my nose when in all reality I am really just stating the obvious. You don't have children so you don't understand the connection you need to have with a child. I am speaking entirely from experience. I don't have any issue with a woman providing for her family. It is a grim reality that we have so many single mother households. They are doing the best they can do and I applaud that. However, the issue in my opinion is when you look at your job or status in your career in a higher respect then staying at home nurturing your children. I didn't even say all women who stay home nurture their children correctly. I'm sure you've seen your share of children who are completely defiant to their parents and grow up to be anti social or crave stimulation with video games, gambling, porn. We all know those types of things exist yet we fail to ask why. We just simply say it is the way things are. I am simply stating that perhaps it does take root within the family and the attachment we have with it.

On another note: I find it daunting to have to explain something in specifics that I spoke generally about. Thank you.


Are you saying that if there is opportunity for it a mother should stay at home and not work at all? Because if I understand correctly that was what you wanted to say in the bold part?

I think it would be very fair to say that it is not guaranteed for a kid to be social and not crave stimulation through video games and such if there is a nurturing mother in the picture who decided to devote all her time to her kids. I know of several such cases. Also, you should be aware that not all people share your values. For example I don't think porn is necessarily bad and neither are video games when used in moderation. All of this is just matter of perspective.

"We all know those types of things exist yet we fail to ask why." - why do you think they exist?
 
I think you are assuming I'm snubbing my nose when in all reality I am really just stating the obvious.

Actually you are just stating your opinion which has a bias directed toward women who choose to work. I have one really wonderful student at my university who is competative and highly involved in many projects and her husband chooses to stay at home. I have known stay at home moms who "nurture" their children that its a wonder they aren't totally neurotic because Mommy won't leave them alone. My own mother both worked and then stayed at home. The bottom line is that parents have to make their own choices and accept responsibility for them.

As for being specific about your situation, just a way to emphasis a point--choosing to stay at home will not guarantee you will be a good mother. Easy enough to pass judgement on "other" mothers but the shoe also applies to you.
 
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You don't have children so you don't understand the connection you need to have with a child.

Once again you are not privy to the knowledge of other women. You are only privy to your own experience.

I think you are assuming I'm snubbing my nose when in all reality I am really just stating the obvious. You don't have children so you don't understand the connection you need to have with a child. I am speaking entirely from experience. I don't have any issue with a woman providing for her family. It is a grim reality that we have so many single mother households. They are doing the best they can do and I applaud that. However, the issue in my opinion is when you look at your job or status in your career in a higher respect then staying at home nurturing your children. I didn't even say all women who stay home nurture their children correctly. I'm sure you've seen your share of children who are completely defiant to their parents and grow up to be anti social or crave stimulation with video games, gambling, porn. We all know those types of things exist yet we fail to ask why. We just simply say it is the way things are. I am simply stating that perhaps it does take root within the family and the attachment we have with it.

On another note: I find it daunting to have to explain something in specifics that I spoke generally about. Thank you.

Note the bolded word, perhaps. That means uncertain knowledge, speculation. The opinion of your own specific life should not be extended beyond its boundaries to others. That is generalization and is poor logic.
I think you are assuming I'm snubbing my nose ....when in all reality I am really just stating the obvious.

Once again presuming to read someone else's mind. Also if it is so obvious then bring the proof.

I'm sure you've seen your share of children who are completely defiant to their parents and grow up to be anti social or crave stimulation with video games, gambling, porn. We all know those types of things exist yet we fail to ask why. We just simply say it is the way things are. I am simply stating that perhaps it does take root within the family and the attachment we have with it.

You do realize that many families have two parents, often one is male and one is female? What are your expectations of the male parent? Some sort of patriarchal division of roles could it be? Where does that system come from? Why should any free thinking individual adhere to it? Where does your audacity come from to stand in judgement of those who don't, saying that their motivation is status? How do you know someone's motivation if they have not told you? Are you a mind reader?

There is nothing surprising about this conversation. No.

BTW, video games are new but porn and gambling are ancient. Prove how the independent woman is responsible for their existence. Did she invent them?
 
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Once again you are not privy to the knowledge of other women. You are only privy to your own experience.


She stated she had not had children previously. ;)


Note the bolded word, perhaps. That means uncertain knowledge, speculation. The opinion of your own specific life should not be extended beyond its boundaries to others. That is generalization and is poor logic.

I never spoke in specifics... hence the act of writing on a forum in generalizations.

Once again presuming to read someone else's mind. Also if it is so obvious then bring the proof.

I never presumed to read someones mind I just made an accusation that she could be assuming certain things.


You do realize that many families have two parents, often one is male and one is female? What are your expectations of the male parent? Some sort of patriarchal division of roles could it be? Where does that system come from? Why should any free thinking individual adhere to it? Where does your audacity come from to stand in judgement of those who don't, saying that their motivation is status? How do you know someone's motivation if they have not told you? Are you a mind reader?

-I am aware there are many two parent households but in my opinion the same applies to women.
-My expectations of the male parent are to be just as involved in the way that they can be, however, the bond between mother and child is much deeper and biological.
-Perhaps there is some patriarchy in there but I think it has grounds.
-That system comes from millions of years before the "modern" woman.
-I never said anyone should adhere to it. I do however believe that the way people think is all about justification for their own personal paths.
-The audacity probably comes from me growing up in an outspoken family. They allot it to you at birth where I come from. hahaha
-I think the main objectives of many people in western society are to reach a level of seniority in order to obtain financial security. Some people are more driven than that even by the power of being able to manage others.
-The motivation is the same. so... " "
-I am not a mind reader but I am working on my psychic abilities. I have recently mastered astral projection. I'll let you know when I can read your mind.


There is nothing surprising about this conversation. No.

This game is really fun.
 
The bottom line is that parents have to make their own choices and accept responsibility for them.

Precisely.
 
Are you saying that if there is opportunity for it a mother should stay at home and not work at all? Because if I understand correctly that was what you wanted to say in the bold part?

That is exactly what I am saying.

I think it would be very fair to say that it is not guaranteed for a kid to be social and not crave stimulation through video games and such if there is a nurturing mother in the picture who decided to devote all her time to her kids. I know of several such cases. Also, you should be aware that not all people share your values. For example I don't think porn is necessarily bad and neither are video games when used in moderation. All of this is just matter of perspective.

I understand not all people share my values. I am simply stating my opinion.

"We all know those types of things exist yet we fail to ask why." - why do you think they exist?

I will refer back to my post:

I am simply stating that perhaps it does take root within the family and the attachment we have with it.
 
BTW, video games are new but porn and gambling are ancient. Prove how the independent woman is responsible for their existence. Did she invent them?[/QUOTE]

I don't think I ever concluded women had anything to do with there existence. I do however believe that women neglect their roles as mothers and their children turn to these things to fill the void.
 
I'm glad you agreed. The only way to have room for different perspectives is to allow women the right to their own choices and to stop burdening them with your judgements of the validity of their behaviour. You cannot burden women with your judgements and then turn around and say that your respect their rights to choice. That is nonsense.

You made your choice and I don't question it or assume that you are motivated by status or any other false assumption because I recognize your boundaries.

Recognize the boundaries of others.
 
I'm glad you agreed. The only way to have room for different perspectives is to allow women the right to their own choices and to stop burdening them with your judgements of the validity of their behaviour. You cannot burden women with your judgements and then turn around and say that your respect their rights to choice. That is nonsense.

I never said women didn't have the rights to live their lives the way they see fit. That is your assumption. I am saying they will live with those choices and their children and etc. for generations to come.

You made your choice and I don't question it or assume that you are motivated by status or any other false assumption because I recognize your boundaries.

I always question and I always look for how things can be improved. I also see the wonderment and love within everything. Just because you see that aspect of me where I question women and don't see them being all I think they can be, it doesn't also mean I don't see what they do achieve.

Recognize the boundaries of others.

I now recognize boundaries. Thank you sansei. (bow in respect)
 
I'm not sure if I qualify to answer in this thread since I'm not a women, but since you didn't mention anything I think I'll do so anyway.

"We can't put anyone needs ahead of our own and still be independent."

Maybe it is just me having the wrong definition of "independent", but I've never thought that you need to put your own needs ahead of others in order to be independent, regardless of gender. Being empathic is, in my opinion, not the opposite to independent.

seams like I can't really answer any of your highlighted questions..

Furthermore I think that people who are more leaning towards and holding tight to norms are somewhat more dependent than others, as they are dependent of those norms to make themselves comfortable. (By norms I mean those like; women should be this and men should be that etc.), yet again, I haven't bothered to check up a definition.
 
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How I feel about feminism, I cannot articulate better than LynZ did in the first two minutes of this interview.

[video=youtube;w1p2N37Holw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1p2N37Holw[/video]

"If you want to be ___, then be that, and be free to be that. I just wish the world would embrace every kind of woman."
 
I now recognize boundaries. Thank you sansei. (bow in respect)

Ok, then. Whatever suits you.

When you type your response to my arguments within the post quotes you incorrectly attribute your statements to me. Please correct this.

You are incorrect about my assumptions. I am pointing out to you a basic disrespect that is often shown to human beings and it is the habit of telling people that their choices are inferior without the benefit of full knowledge of their mind. Let me see if I can make this clearer because the miscommunication is likely mine.

I will use myself as an example. I'm a single woman and childless in a society where that choice is unthinkable. It is my choice. People feel they have a right to ask me to defend my choice. They are out of line. I'm a separate human being. My choices are my own and I do not need to justify them to anyone.

In my country, there is a famous female musician who is childless. In every interview she was asked why she was childless and in every interview she avoided the question. People speculated publicly on the reasons. Eventually, she released a song about her infertility. This happened as a result of societal pressure. It is a violation. It is an abuse. That musician should never have felt the need to justify her personal decisions to anyone.

Saying women are independent for reason of status insults independent women because you presume to know their mind and you don't and they should not have to feel the social pressure to justify their private choices. These things can get so out of control that one grows afraid to meet new people because they are always probing where they don't belong.

I personally never have heard men asked the intrusive questions that I've been asked about my sexuality, marriage status, childlessness etc. It is assumed that men know what they want and that's that. (This is not to say men don't have other issues comparable to this.) You do not know why these women you observed made their choices. You are on the outside looking in and you could very likely be very wrong. Yet your judgement on them is declared. It is disrespectful to them. Just as it would be disrespectful to you for me to jump to conclusions about why you study to be a mid-wife. I do not know unless you tell me. This is as it should be because your choices are none of my business. Do you understand what I'm trying to explain to you? I know it seems like a bizarre way to think but if you look at your own life perhaps you see where unfair pressure is placed on you for your choices. Though it may be the habit of society to behave this way, it isn't right. Your choices should be respected. You aren't a child. I'm asking you to become conscious in this way because the current way of being is the sort of thing that leads to the oppression of people. We only put that behind us when we decide to become conscious of the other's rights to be self-defined.
 
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I'm not sure if I qualify to answer in this thread since I'm not a women, but since you didn't mention anything I think I'll do so anyway.

"We can't put anyone needs ahead of our own and still be independent."

Maybe it is just me having the wrong definition of "independent", but I've never thought that you need to put your own needs ahead of others in order to be independent, regardless of gender. Being empathic is, in my opinion, not the opposite to independent.

seams like I can't really answer any of your highlighted questions..

Furthermore I think that people who are more leaning towards and holding tight to norms are somewhat more dependent than others, as they are dependent of those norms to make themselves comfortable. (By norms I mean those like; women should be this and men should be that etc.), yet again, I haven't bothered to check up a definition.

These questions were simply highlighting some things I noticed, which do not reflect one particular person's point of view but just a general impression which sometimes seems to be held by society. It's just a general commentary.
 
Ok, then. Whatever suits you.

When you type your response to my arguments within the post quotes you incorrectly attribute your statements to me. Please correct this.

You are incorrect about my assumptions. I am pointing out to you a basic disrespect that is often shown to human beings and it is the habit of telling people that their choices are inferior without the benefit of full knowledge of their mind. Let me see if I can make this clearer because the miscommunication is likely mine.

I will use myself as an example. I'm a single woman and childless in a society where that choice is unthinkable. It is my choice. People feel they have a right to ask me to defend my choice. They are out of line. I'm a separate human being. My choices are my own and I do not need to justify them to anyone.

In my country, there is a famous female musician who is childless. In every interview she was asked why she was childless and in every interview she avoided the question. People speculated publicly on the reasons. Eventually, she released a song about her infertility. This happened as a result of societal pressure. It is a violation. It is an abuse. That musician should never have felt the need to justify her personal decisions to anyone.

Saying women are independent for reason of status insults independent women because you presume to know their mind and you don't and they should not have to feel the social pressure to justify their private choices. These things can get so out of control that one grows afraid to meet new people because they are always probing where they don't belong.

I personally never have heard men asked the intrusive questions that I've been asked about my sexuality, marriage status, childlessness etc. It is assumed that men know what they want and that's that. (This is not to say men don't have other issues comparable to this.) You do not know why these women you observed made their choices. You are on the outside looking in and you could very likely be very wrong. Yet your judgement on them is declared. It is disrespectful to them. Just as it would be disrespectful to you for me to jump to conclusions about why you study to be a mid-wife. I do not know unless you tell me. This is as it should be because your choices are none of my business. Do you understand what I'm trying to explain to you? I know it seems like a bizarre way to think but if you look at your own life perhaps you see where unfair pressure is placed on you for your choices. Though it may be the habit of society to behave this way, it isn't right. Your choices should be respected. You aren't a child. I'm asking you to become conscious in this way because the current way of being is the sort of thing that leads to the oppression of people. We only put that behind us when we decide to become conscious of the other's rights to be self-defined.



I understand your point of you and whether or not you believe so, I do respect it. I do believe that there is a certain pressure in society as far as women are concerned and I never debate that. I have only said that the way women decide to raise their children is faulty in my opinion. And many women are and can be selfish when it comes to children, whether it be having them or not. I personally prefer women do not have children if they feel they can't. It isn't necessary to have children and I never said it was. However, I feel there is an injustice and sometimes abuse of themselves when they do not take responsibility for that choice (having multiple abortions as a means of birth control). I have only ever had an issue with that. I don't feel it is wrong to presume that it is a choice within yourself that keeps you from having children if you are able. On the other extreme I feel there is also an issue with overpopulation and many unplanned, irresponsible pregnancies. I only feel strongly about one thing, if you're going to have children, do what is best for them in every aspect that you can. Of course that can be relative, but because of my personal bias I feel there is a better way than most women do it. Women need to take responsibility for the sacrifices they make. No one needs to answer to me or explain themselves. I have never asked a women why she chooses not to have children. It is not my business. But when women do have children they do need to answer to the rest of society. We need to become more connected and take responsibility in our communities for the children that turn out. They are our future.

I have never presumed to know anyone else's train of thought, nor do I care to unless that person is involved with me. I do feel people have a responsibility to explain the choices that affect others. If it doesn't affect anyone but yourself, I have no issue with it. When you bring children into the picture, it definitely needs to be explained. If you don't know how to explain it, and you could use guidance in handling it, there will be people like me who are going to school to guide you. That is all.
 
I hattte talking about this stuff. Womanhood is imaginary.
 
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