MBTI Misconceptions

[VH]

So my conjecture both sucked and was awesome, eh? Please improve on it! How would you make it correct?

T ≈ Computer
F ≈ Animal

T + F = Human J Function

Computers do have some degree of an Fe component, in this analogy. They have a strong inclination to make things how they 'feel' they should be. In fact, there is no arguing with them. Te would always be open to the possibility of alteration. Computers have to have their paradigms (programs) forcibly altered in order to change. However, computers are a good example of something that people interact with frequently that has a high degree of similarity to a pure T function.

Animals have a degree of Te and Ti functions, in reality, to greater degrees as they develop intelligence. You can train them, and to a fair extent teach them language. They're also able to figure out how things work and exploit those understandings. However[/size][SIZE=Default], animals are a good example of something that people interact with frequently that has a high degree of similarity to a pure F function.
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As I mentioned, these are great analogies and will do wonders to describe through example. They're just not 100% scientifically accurate, but then neither is saying that the sky is blue. They do a great job of getting the point across.

Kudos!

 

[VH]

...what about the P functions?

The P functions work exactly the same as the J functions being a whole process made up of 4 functions.

Ni + Ne + Si + Se = P

Each individual prefers one of those functions in the use of their P function, but uses all of them.

To take the cognitive process to its conclusion, the J and P functions work together exactly the same as they work on their own, with the individual preferring one or the other of the functions. They are both used at the same time, and all parts are used together to form the whole process of cognition.

J + P = Cognition

Therefore

Ni + Ne + Si + Se + Fi + Fe + Ti + Te = Cognition

...with each individual having preferences in the overall order of those functions, which are all used at the same time. This is what the MBTI bases its assumptions of personality type upon. When the MBTI/Jung say that an INFJ is Ni Fe, they are stating that while using the cognitive functions, the individual uses all of their functions, but has a preference toward Ni and Fe.

It's like saying "This one leans a little to the left, or that one leans a little to the front, but all of them stand up straight enough that they don't fall over." The biggest misconception of the MBTI is that in this analogy, each type is not standing but instead laying on the floor pointed exactly in one of 16 directions. That's simply not the case. The MBTI is a measure of the slight differences in how we all stand and move.

 

[arbygil]

It's our bent.

 

[Syzygy]

Von Hase, thank you for replying.

So, what's the point of separating cognition into J and P? Is grouping the T, F, i, e elements and the N, S, i, e elements into separate groups one of the reasons?

By the way, from the few posts that I have in this thread, can you tell which type I am?

 

[VH]

Von Hase, thank you for replying.

So, what's the point of separating cognition into J and P? Is grouping the T, F, i, e elements and the N, S, i, e elements into separate groups one of the reasons?

By the way, from the few posts that I have in this thread, can you tell which type I am?

The reason to break them down is to distinguish between J and P, and each of the functions therein to determine preference.

You are an INTP. Your Ti is strong, as you have a need to know how things work. You also focus on the possibilities in pattern recognition, Ne as a secondary preference.

 

[Milon]

Here's another thought I'm tossing out for refinement:

MBTI uses a lot of verbage without redefining it, giving rise to much confusion. Might it be better to say that T is Concrete-Judging and F is Abstract-Judging, and S is Concrete-Perceiving and N is Abstract-Perceiving? This way cognition is interpreted in terms of internal/external abstract/concrete judging/perceiving, rather than a mess of poorly defined terms.

 

[rainrise]

Here's another thought I'm tossing out for refinement:

MBTI uses a lot of verbage without redefining it, giving rise to much confusion. Might it be better to say that T is Concrete-Judging and F is Abstract-Judging, and S is Concrete-Perceiving and N is Abstract-Perceiving? This way cognition is interpreted in terms of internal/external abstract/concrete judging/perceiving, rather than a mess of poorly defined terms.

yes that definately makes the functions clearer for me

 

[poetrygirl]

It tells you how you think ,but not what you think.

 

[Kastor]

It's probably been said a million times, but I hate the stereotype that all INFPs are fluffy, teddy bear-like people

 

[Shai Gar]

Aww, isn't that cute

 

[acd]

It's probably been said a million times, but I hate the stereotype that all INFPs are fluffy, teddy bear-like people

Hah. That's funny.
I've been called 'stoic' and 'stern.'

 

[VH]

Here's another thought I'm tossing out for refinement:

MBTI uses a lot of verbage without redefining it, giving rise to much confusion. Might it be better to say that T is Concrete-Judging and F is Abstract-Judging, and S is Concrete-Perceiving and N is Abstract-Perceiving? This way cognition is interpreted in terms of internal/external abstract/concrete judging/perceiving, rather than a mess of poorly defined terms.

I think this is a good description.

The MBTI is an indicator, not a definer. It points you in the direction of your type, but does not give a definitive result. The MBTI is also prone mistyping the P and J axis for introverts. The entire test is based on very good psychological science, but was never meant to be a demonstrative instrument. Just a ballpark tool. Confusion will arise with it.

As far as each function group, I would say...

T is concerned with what is correct, logically and analytically.
F is concerned with what is right, philosophically and emotionally.
S percieves the world as it is and was.
N percieves the world as it could be and will be.

 

[TaylorS]

F is called Feeling. There is a tremendous misconception about this function because of the name. The assumptions center around this function being based in emotion. It isn't. Emotions are not cognitive functions. Emotions cannot reason. The F function is not 'emotional logic'. The F function is philosophical reasoning. It is concerned with emotion, but it is also concerned with relationships, interactions, proportions, associations, and the abstract. The F function is non-verbal right brained reasoning. At it's core, the F function asks 'why?'. The F function is responsible for assessing needs, and making inferences that have no measurable quantification, such as non-verbal communication. How the color of that shirt makes her eyes look, how the light in this room changes them both, and how it makes you feel (aka how you choose to feel) are all F functions. A lot of actual Philosophy is tied into the F function, but don't confuse the subject of Philosophy with philosophical reasoning.

When F is extroverted, it becomes focused on the philosophical relationships, interactions, proportions, and associations of the shared world. When F is introverted, it becomes focused on the relationships, interactions, proportions, and associations of the individual. It is impossible to be F dominant and not have a capacity for both of these approaches. The difference in personality lies in which is the individual's preferred function. Fe dominants are more inclined to look at the relationships in the world around them as distinct and seperate parts of a whole in which they are included. Fi dominants are more inclined to take a perspective of their own feelings and how they are affected by the relationships in the world around them. The distinction is subtle because the F function is inherently both Fe and Fi. Fe's will tend to be sympathetic, while Fi's will be empathetic. Fe's will tend to prioritize the needs of others as equal or ahead of their own. Fi's will tend to put their own needs as a higher priority than those of others, or at least equal.

Excellent description of Fe and Fi! I was mistyped as INTP for a long time exactly because of the misconceptions surrounding Fe. The misconceptions and the BS way F-vs.-T questions on online personality tests are worded lead me to think that an individual with Asperger's Syndrome like myself (*waves at poster who mentioned high functioning autistic kids with high IQs, LOL!* ) couldn't have a high preference for Fe, WRONG!

When I figured out that I had Ni and not Ne I then assumed that I was INTJ, but it just didn't fit, my use of T is very much in the form of Ti, Te is actually my Achilles' heel (IMO a lot of FJs score as FPs or TPs on many online tests because the "J" answers on such tests describe TJs), I can supervise things on a personal level but I could never be a manager of the paper-shuffling kind. It was how I reacted when I learned that a physically disabled friend/co-worker of mine was raped that my auxilary Fe became blindingly obvious (I was seriously ready to punch another coworker, an ISTJ with Asperger's, who kept telling her "just quit thinking about what happened").

 

[TaylorS]

I agree. And shows why the thinking-feeling labels are misleading, all 4 judging functions are forms of thinking. Better labels would be Fact-based thinking and Value-based thinking.

More precisely...

Te: Logic
Ti: Coherence
Fe: Relation
Fi: Sentiment

 

[meanlittlechimp]

That is so true about the "T" - people forget that I do have feelings and that I care VERY DEEPLY for others ... I cry at movies, I cry when reading a book, heck my son constantly laughs at me because I cry so much! I also get angrier than others do, I laugh louder than others and I hate more viciously than anyone cares to imagine. I just don't take ANY of these emotions into account when decision making. Its very hard to do sometimes, but more often than not I succeed.

You're a woman right? My female ESTP friend used to cry often.

I could never imagine my male ESTP friends doing so. Not to say they don't get just as emotional on occasion, they often can exhibit extreme joy or anger, but they would never cry like a bitch (their words).

 

[Julia]

• Ts are unemotional and Fs are emotionally expressive- False The difference between the two does not indicate whether or not someone experiences emotions or not but whether someone considers the emotions of others in decision making. I am an Fi dominant yet I rarely show emotion, it makes sense, my feeling is directed inwards, I have no need to express it outwardly, yet what makes me an F is that I consider the feelings of others even when I have no feelings about the matter at hand. So a strong T who cries all the time would still fit the theory just fine.

From what I understand about MBTI, "Feeling" is not equivalent to emotion, but has more to do with considering subjective data and perspectives. T is associated with requiring empirical evidence, while F is comfortable in the realm of fuzzy data.

Every brain is hardwired for emotion, and the way people relate to their emotional responses and how they integrate their emotional systems into the whole of their minds is a far more complex issue than a single contrasting pole could accurately represent.

I find the T-F poles potentially problematic when they imply that a person who tests as a T has a kind of objectivity as part of their personal identity and the person who tests as an F is primarily reliant on emotional responses. I've seen these assumptions distort communication and perception to a degree that is impressive.

 

[Amaranth44]

I have only been able to skim through most posts, I will get a chance to read more thoroughly later on. As an INFJ, I am curious between the main differences between injf and infp. Sorry if this isn't the main topic right now, but I think these two types can often get confused when using the MBTI. I have always tested as an INFJ, and the description fits me to a tee. One thing I find confusing though is that people often will say INFJs are always extremely organized and are never late. However I wouldn't say that J implicates this completely does it? I can be very organized in aspects involving my work and school, but very disorganized with day to day nuances.
I may not be as knowledgeable as many in this forum as I'm still learning about this. Hopefully someone can explain the main difference between INFJ and INFP?

 

[sassafras]

I have only been able to skim through most posts, I will get a chance to read more thoroughly later on. As an INFJ, I am curious between the main differences between injf and infp. Sorry if this isn't the main topic right now, but I think these two types can often get confused when using the MBTI. I have always tested as an INFJ, and the description fits me to a tee. One thing I find confusing though is that people often will say INFJs are always extremely organized and are never late. However I wouldn't say that J implicates this completely does it? I can be very organized in aspects involving my work and school, but very disorganized with day to day nuances.
I may not be as knowledgeable as many in this forum as I'm still learning about this. Hopefully someone can explain the main difference between INFJ and INFP?

Here's the thread that might help.

 

[meanlittlechimp]

Hey Nephalim, I have heard that INTJs often have trouble reading feeling cues (instinct, limbic energy) from their environment. Is this true?

I would think this true for both IXTJs; with EXTJs being the second worse group.

I think this is the single biggest misperception of MBTI. It makes many smart, intellectually curious, accomplished Sensors mistype themselves as Intuitives. If you try to turn a sensor onto MBTI and hand them random MBTI book; the insulting tone implied in most descriptions is obvious.

I always describe it to them rather than handing them a book saying they should pursue plumbing as a career, because I guarantee most of the professionals in engineering. law, medicine etc, are Sensors and not Intuitives.

 

[Julia]

That's just another example of the little ironies people are often prone toward inventing for some reason. It is of course short-sighted and unintelligent to have that level of prejudicial thinking and is exactly what the iNtuitive is assuming to be the flaw of the Sensor.

Another misconception with MBTI is that it is scientific or factual. It is an interesting idea, but not falsifiable and not close to being scientific or factual. MBTI has created some fascinating social phenomenon both in its corporate application where people are tested, labeled and then decisions are made about their employment, to the internet communities that form hard-edged prejudices about various types like the ones you describe above. The National Academy of Sciences tested the validity of MBTI and found that only the E-I axis had enough consistency in testing to have any validity. (I can dig up the links as necessary). The testing was done in response to the increased popularity of using MBTI to make employment decisions.

The ironies that emerge from the system are an interesting aspect of it where you have iNtuitives without the insight to see variation in people and Thinkers who lack the objectivity to see the system for what it is. It is a great way to measure projection since often people define their own limitations through their descriptions of the other group they consider as lesser beings. Edit: The subjective nature of the system has fuzzy boundaries, so placing hard boundaries on the system and concluding these as fact makes little sense. The writings of Kiersey are rather flattering to the Thinker, and so I suspect that has something to do with the intensity of how some people embrace it as absolute.