Left or Liberal?

[kinglear]

Certainly not.

While I understand the value of identity, I think it loses its value if it is not voluntary. It's not special anymore if the government is telling you how to American.

so the libertarians say ''do what you want as long as you don't hurt others''

the communists say: ''do what we tell you or we will hurt you''

if the communists prevailed no one would be anything. They would not be american or mexican or canadian they would simply be a number in the computers of the central politburo

if you like your culture and say its cuisine and festivals you would lose all of that under communism. Everything would be wiped clean including history:

''But don’t wrangle with us so long as you apply, to our intended abolition of bourgeois property, the standard of your bourgeois notions of freedom, culture, law, &c. Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of the conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class made into a law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economical conditions of existence of your class.''- karl marx

 

[kinglear]

While I understand the value of identity, I think it loses its value if it is not voluntary..

do you think people should segregate along lines of race for example should some ethnicities have their own areas as 'safe spaces' or should all people be encouraged to get along as fellow americans?

 

[Skarekrow]

do you think you could maybe contribute to the discussion instead of trying to attack me?

I'm looking at 6 big issues of our day and asking people how they feel about them

I would, but as @sprinkles pointed out, they make very little sense and are skewed and biased and written to generate a certain answer for those who wrote them to pick apart people with.
So I’m not attacking you...just the 6 crap questions.

 

[sprinkles]

do you think people should segregate along lines of race for example should some ethnicities have their own areas as 'safe spaces' or should all people be encouraged to get along as fellow americans?

In my experience people will self segregate to whatever level they feel is necessary. I've lived in mixed neighborhoods and seen it happen. It's not something that needs to be dictated or sanctioned. You can't force people to get along either. It usually ends up with resentment.

I think the only thing we're obligated to do is not segregate in official policy and to not sanction it in any way.

 

[kinglear]

I would, but as @sprinkles pointed out, they make very little sense and are skewed and biased and written to generate a certain answer for those who wrote them to pick apart people with.
So I’m not attacking you...just the 6 crap questions.

ok i'll take that in good faith

so to better get a handle on this how would you.....

do you think there is a difference between the traditional liberal position and what we are seeing emerging rapidly and even violently on the left in our society?

 

[kinglear]

In my experience people will self segregate to whatever level they feel is necessary. I've lived in mixed neighborhoods and seen it happen. It's not something that needs to be dictated or sanctioned. You can't force people to get along either. It usually ends up with resentment.

I think the only thing we're obligated to do is not segregate in official policy and to not sanction it in any way.

ok

so if we went along with the communists open borders policy and people all mixed up do you think they would get along or do you think they would reorganise themselves into groups who had various things in common eg language, culture, religion, race etc?

 

[Sloe Djinn]

ok

so if we went along with the communists open borders policy and people all mixed up do you think they would get along or do you think they would reorganise themselves into groups who had various things in common eg language, culture, religion, race etc?

They would do both.

 

[Skarekrow]

ok i'll take that in good faith

so to better get a handle on this how would you.....

do you think there is a difference between the traditional liberal position and what we are seeing emerging rapidly and even violently on the left in our society?

Well, it’s exactly the same in many regards to the Tea Party a few years ago.
Also you can’t just say the left is becoming more violent while leaving out the other side who is arguably MORE violent.
Has fired guns at protesters, has killed them by running them down with their cars through crowds, etc.
I don’t see people getting angry at Nazi’s and Nazi sympathizers as “violent(ly)”.
I don’t agree with physical violence...but anyone who is a Nazi or marches with them can go eat shit and fuck off.
Pulling down racist statues is violent in nature yes, but it’s not mowing down crowds with a car violent.

 

[kinglear]

They would do both.

yeah i'd agree with that

if we look at the situation in northern india when the british wanted to get out of the country they had to solve the issue of the conflict between the hindus and the muslims

they decided to draw a line across a map and say 'muslims to one side (pakisthan), hindus to the other (india)'

people did move but they killed each other as they went. I think about a million people died

 

[Sloe Djinn]

yeah i'd agree with that

if we look at the situation in northern india when the british wanted to get out of the country they had to solve the issue of the conflict between the hindus and the muslims

they decided to draw a line across a map and say 'muslims to one side (pakisthan), hindus to the other (india)'

people did move but they killed each other as they went. I think about a million people died

There’s just no way to predict what an entire ethnic group would do. I’m certain that some would seek familiarity, and that’s how you get whole neighborhoods, towns and regions that may be dominated by a group. However there are going to be just as many members of a given group who will branch out for whatever reasons, be it economic, adventure, etc.

 

[kinglear]

Well, it’s exactly the same in many regards to the Tea Party a few years ago.
Also you can’t just say the left is becoming more violent while leaving out the other side who is arguably MORE violent.
Has fired guns at protesters, has killed them by running them down with their cars through crowds, etc.
I don’t see people getting angry at Nazi’s and Nazi sympathizers as “violent(ly)”.
I don’t agree with physical violence...but anyone who is a Nazi or marches with them can go eat shit and fuck off.
Pulling down racist statues is violent in nature yes, but it’s not mowing down crowds with a car violent.

i remember the incident you are referring to which involved one person driving a car into a crowd where tensions were boiling over because one side wanted to take down statues

so the statue issue is tricky because some people don't like what the people are remembered for but on the other side there is a danger because the communists want to do a thing called 'tabula rasa' where they create a blank slate

they kinda see people as something that can be moulded

people all have history and that history informs how they got to be where they are. Some of that history is downright ugly but it still explains why things are as they are so it has lessons in it

the communists want to wipe that history and that's what orwell told us in his fnovel '1984' where he said:
“Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”

he knew a thing or two about the left as well because he'd gone to fight the fascists in spain but then saw the left turn on itself as more authoritarian aspects crushed the rest of the left. He had to flee the country to avoid further persecution

So i think this attack on history is a dangerous thing because if you look at indigenous people around the world who have lost their culture and identity and sense of self they often experience social breakdown which sees all kinds of social problems like depression, drugs, drink, family disintegration and crime etc

what happens to humans when they lose all sense of who they are and where they came from?

 

[kinglear]

There’s just no way to predict what an entire ethnic group would do. I’m certain that some would seek familiarity, and that’s how you get whole neighborhoods, towns and regions that may be dominated by a group. However there are going to be just as many members of a given group who will branch out for whatever reasons, be it economic, adventure, etc.

yeah for sure

what if some groups carry certain baggage with them in the form of beliefs that give that group a cohesion eg a religion?

if that group clumps together and acts in its own interests that then puts other people on the back foot which might then get them to think that they need to club together in order to act in their own best interests so that they are not dominated by the cohesive group

if conflict were to arise then this would of course give fans of strong central government a justification for their belief in goverment. For example communists could say ''we need a powerful police state (eg see soviet cheka secret police) to stop all of you rascals from fighting each other''

 

[Stu]

i remember the incident you are referring to which involved one person driving a car into a crowd where tensions were boiling over because one side wanted to take down statues

In my opinion this is a gross misrepresentation of what occurred at the Unite the Right march in Charlottesville.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

yeah for sure

what if some groups carry certain baggage with them in the form of beliefs that give that group a cohesion eg a religion?

if that group clumps together and acts in its own interests that then puts other people on the back foot which might then get them to think that they need to club together in order to act in their own best interests so that they are not dominated by the cohesive group

if conflict were to arise then this would of course give fans of strong central government a justification for their belief in goverment. For example communists could say ''we need a powerful police state (eg see soviet cheka secret police) to stop all of you rascals from fighting each other''

Idk maybe but that doesn’t mean it will happen and I’m skeptical of attempts to generalize (which I think is your goal) this to large swaths of people based on tenuous definitions of left and liberal. I just don’t think this is distillable if you are looking to make any definitive conclusions about “the left”, communists, etc.

 

[kinglear]

Idk maybe but that doesn’t mean it will happen and I’m skeptical of attempts to generalize (which I think is your goal) this to large swaths of people based on tenuous definitions of left and liberal. I just don’t think this is distillable if you are looking to make any definitive conclusions about “the left”, communists, etc.

i think we can generalise about communism because it has a rule book and we can actually see it playing to that rule book

 

[kinglear]

In my opinion this is a gross misrepresentation of what occurred at the Unite the Right march in Charlottesville.

ok so what happened at the march?

 

[Stu]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

 

[kinglear]

do you know all those beautiful old cities in europe that people love to come and visit from all around the world?

the communists wanted to flatten them and replace them with high rise towers and they did flatten sections of historic towns including parts of paris

the marxist city planners in the 1960's used a style they called 'brutalist' which involved using lots of concrete and not seeking to adorn the building in any way or make it look nice in anyway. grenfell tower which burned down in london recently killing lots of people was an example of marxist architecture

AD Classics: Ville Radieuse / Le Corbusier
01:00 - 11 August, 2013 by Gili Merin

Ville Radieuse (The Radiant City) is an unrealized urban masterplan by Le Corbusier, first presented in 1924 and published in a book of the same name in 1933. Designed to contain effective means of transportation, as well as an abundance of green space and sunlight, Le Corbusier’s city of the future would not only provide residents with a better lifestyle, but would contribute to creating a better society. Though radical, strict and nearly totalitarian in its order, symmetry and standardization, Le Corbusier’s proposed principles had an extensive influence on modern urban planning and led to the development of new high-density housing typologies.

In accordance with modernist ideals of progress (which encouraged the annihilation of tradition), The Radiant City was to emerge from a tabula rasa: it was to be built on nothing less than the grounds of demolished vernacular European cities. The new city would contain prefabricated and identical high-density skyscrapers, spread across a vast green area and arranged in a Cartesian grid, allowing the city to function as a “living machine.” Le Corbusier explains: “The city of today is a dying thing because its planning is not in the proportion of geometrical one fourth. The result of a true geometrical lay-out is repetition, The result of repetition is a standard. The perfect form.”

At the core of Le Corbusier’s plan stood the notion of zoning: a strict division of the city into segregated commercial, business, entertainment and residential areas. The business district was located in the center, and contained monolithic mega-skyscrapers, each reaching a height of 200 meters and accommodating five to eight hundred thousand people. Located in the center of this civic district was the main transportation deck, from which a vast underground system of trains would transport citizens to and from the surrounding housing districts.

The housing districts would contain pre-fabricated apartment buildings, known as “Unités.” Reaching a height of fifty meters, a single Unité could accommodate 2,700 inhabitants and function as a vertical village: catering and laundry facilities would be on the ground floor, a kindergarden and a pool on the roof. Parks would exist between the Unités, allowing residents with a maximum of natural daylight, a minimum of noise and recreational facilities at their doorsteps.

These radical ideas were further developed by Le Corbusier in his drafts for various schemes for cities such as Paris, Antwerp, Moscow, Algiers and Morocco. Finally, in 1949 he found a state authority that provided him with a “free hand” - The Indian capital of Punjab. In Chandigarh, the first planned city in liberated India, Le Corbusier applied his strict zoning system and designed the central Capitol Complex, consisting of the High Court, the Legislative Assembly, and the Secretariat.

Today, in the aftermath of Modernism, Le Corbusier’s built cities are hardly ever described as Utopias. Brasilia, for example, has been harshly criticized for ignoring residents' habits or desires and for not providing public spaces for urban encounters. In addition to this, the Unité-inspired apartment blocks, which lie on the outskirts of nearly every major city today, have become incubators of poverty and crime; most have been thoroughly remodeled or demolished

https://www.archdaily.com/411878/ad-c...e-le-corbusier

 

[kinglear]

View attachment 44531
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

so how does that account differ from mine except your account took a side and chose to portray one side in as bad a light as possible?

could the other side not also be demonised if their intent is to violently enslave all peoples under an all powerful government that they would control?

 

[Stu]

You are not going to convince anyone on this forum of anything, what you can do is post lies, half truths, malicious innuendos and then come back in little while and open your browser and see the posts you made in the pursuit of your cause. You can even look and see how many bots looked at threads you participated in. You can argue with those of us who question your facts or your motives and then eventually you will grow tired and leave us be or get kicked off for being a jerk.