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Kmal
you want me to believe what you believe.
Your words, not mine - its a debate.
Why would someone follow islam and not do what it preaches?
Exactly.
If that is the case, they are not Islamic, they just claim to be. Where am I going wrong when I think that because you say the religion is a violent religion that the people who actually follow it should be violent too?
Because there's two issues with that; one) is the use of the word should, to indicate the likelihood of it, and word 'are' meaning how they actually live. Two, I am wary of your wording, because there are also Islamic people, who live in an Islamic culture, and are considered Muslim, despite their religious beliefs (like non practicing Jews).
I've read what you said, I'm just trying to grasp it.
I'm answering this out of order, but only because its easier to reference the above comment, then if I were to reply to this and say "read the answer to comment below." anyways, just as Christians are commanded to preach love, there are churches like Westboro Baptist, or the North Carolina church. If you were to ask them if they were Christian, they would say yes, praise God etc., in fact they may boast that they are the Christians most in sync with scripture, and all other Christians aren't true Christians. Well then, if you heard that, you might have a very skewed look on Christianity, if you had never heard of it before. So if you went to read the Bible, what would it prove? It would prove that they are wrong, they are the extremists and are actually NOT following God's laws, yes they are Christian, but not ones who model themselves after Christ. The same goes for peaceful Muslims, you might have a Mosque down the street, with very kind and gracious Muslims who love all yada yada, and you hear 'crackpots' (as I assume people think of me as such) like me talking about how they're terrorists. But how could this be? Every Muslim you know is so kind! Yes, those Muslims killed thousands in the world trade center, but they were extremists! Hmm.... Tough cookie to break open, how should we get answers? The news? No. The Muslims themselves? No, because both sides believe they are right, so thats just inviting bias. Then go read the Koran, you read it, and you're shocked! People believe Extremists/minority people have to be violent terrorists, no, they're just the minority. So the Muslims down the street are mocked by Muslims in Arabia? Yup.
This is why I post Bible verses to back up my statements, whereas you are NOT (edit: posting not vote... Idk why I wrote the word vote) Koran OR Bible verses to back up yours.
You'll have to excuse my slowness, I'm just a human.
Don't be an ass.
From the Koran, Chapter titled The Accenssions, proves my point on this post, unless you can disprove it with furter information from the Koran, or top Muslim scholars that say these vesres are no longer applicable.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Do not turn your back on Muslims who do not want war, unless it is to kill them. I'm really trying not be a sarcastic right now, but that pretty much ends the topic on whether its a religion of peace? Allah hates even those who stray from him.
Now the Bible is very clear it is a very, very harsh sin for anyone to put words into the mouth of Jesus, or the Bible. So when I say "and jesus said" and I post my opinion, I then say "or I believe so/my view/etc" However, here is what Jesus says to Christians who don't follow the tenets of the bible. (Such as Westboro)
Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
Interesting, that does sound like the Koran, Allah said all who say they are in his name, but are not will burn in hell.
However, the Bible then goes onto say
Not Peace, but a Sword
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Interesting... Again, how is this different form the Koran? Saru, you silly boy you're killing your own side!
No, I'm trying to be fair, I'm putting all that is out there, for I am not ashamed of the Truth for I know the Truth, and it will set me free. Kmal, while you continue to post no scripture for or against your side, but argue as an athiest, I must then say you have no side, but of one to taunt. So i will complete my Biblical verse trio with this:
The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eatthe crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.[
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Now here's the climax of it, keep in mind I quoted all of the Koran verses from the same Chapter, and all the BIble verses from the same book (the Koran doesn't have books in the same way the Bible does). We have discussed it does not due to post random verses with no context, also why I post verse chunks, instead of single verses.
The Canaanites were enemies of Israel, mocking God, hating his people, and killing them any chance they could. But more interesting, is that the Canaanites came from the lineage of Cain, Abel's brother. So Jesus is in effect saying (again, in my opinion) here are you, the daughter of the one who committed the first murder. The daughter of the line that was once mine, but departed and now have devoted your lines to kill my people. But you came to me, asked for Forgiveness, and I came to you and healed your daughter. (spoken from Jesus point of view, but not his words, my view of what he said)
If you stray from the path of Islam, you are to be killed, and if you ever come "back" to Islam, you will still be an outsider for the rest of your life. However, if you stray from Jesus, but ask for forgiveness in faith, your past sins are nothing, you are forgiven without a thought. Now, I don't mean to be blasphemous, but I will make this into clear terms, it was almost as if Jesus was Hitler, and the lady a Jew, Jesus is forgiving GENERATIONS of war and hate and death and forgives her and heals her daughter. Because we ALL sin, and we ALL fall short of the Glory of God. God doesn't have favorites, but it sounds like Allah sure does.
edit: not sure if you've already seen this postand/or/are responding but I forgot to add this little part to the end:
The reason why Jesus is saying "I was sent here only for the Children of Israel" etc. etc., he is testing her to see if she truly believes in Him, He wants to make sure she isn't trying to pull a "hey lemme go see this Jesus guy and get my daughter healed, if not no sweat off my back". And even when He had told her "no. you are not what I came here for," thus finalizing her daughters fate she accepted that, but still showed her belief even after being denied. That's the crux of that verse: ask, and you shall receive.
